Yet another eBiab control panel

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Goowa

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Been agonizing and analyzing for nearly a year now about my electric brewery build. I finally made the determination that a three vessel system is out of my price range, at least for the moment. So I landed on a single vessel electric biab. Got the 5500W TC element from Bobby at brewhardware, and the retro fit kit for my 15G SS Brewtech kettle. Pulled together what I thought would be a decent panel, laid it out and drew up a diagram. Lots of reading here and inspiration from @doug239cz. Wonder if y'all would do me a solid and review my diagram to see if I've missed anything. I do have one concern with the lamps in the pump circuits, with no fuses in front of them. Should I worry?


BrewPanel_circuit.jpg
 
Not a bad start, but there are at least two errors. Extra credit if you can find the errors before I point them out (it would be a good learning experience.) I'll look it over some more, and sketch up what needs fixing when I have some time later today.

Brew on :mug:
 
I'm gonna guess it's got something to do with the volt meter, estop, and/or alarm switch.

Warm?
 
Is one of them that I have both phases running back through the same neutral wire? Or that I have my neutral and hot on the wrong pins on the DS320?
 
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It might just be the way you drew the diagram but how does the keyswitch get power when the relay its powered off is feeding it power on the switched side?
 
Follow the dashed red lines.

Brew on :mug:
I saw that one too but again it still confuses me because it show the power going through NC contacts on the pump and Aux switch which to me would seem the power would only travel through the switch to the next if that stuff is off. Again im probably reading it wrong but its just the way it looks to me.

EDIT..ok I think this is because of the safe start circuit.. im not familiar with it but I think I understand now after looking at it more closely... I think I learned something here.
 
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I saw that one too but again it still confuses me because it show the power going through NC contacts on the pump and Aux switch which to me would seem the power would only travel through the switch to the next if that stuff is off. Again im probably reading it wrong but its just the way it looks to me.

EDIT..ok I think this is because of the safe start circuit.. im not familiar with it but I think I understand now after looking at it more closely... I think I learned something here.
Yes, it is the safe start interlock. The main power cannot be turned on (the main contactor closed) if any of the pump or element switches is in the on position. Designs by others use a separate relay to implement the safe start, but I figured out how to use the main power contactor in a self latching mode to eliminate the separate relay. Once the main power contactor is closed, its coil is powered from the output of the contactor itself. Opening the main power switch will disconnect power to the contactor coil, and power is disconnected. Once powered off, the safe start interlock is rearmed.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Not a bad start, but there are at least two errors. Extra credit if you can find the errors before I point them out (it would be a good learning experience.) I'll look it over some more, and sketch up what needs fixing when I have some time later today.

Brew on :mug:

Ok I took another whack at this with v1.1 attached to this post (cant seems to edit the first or second post in this thread).

Changes:
  • Moved the alarm enable switch to between the ezboil pin 14 and the alarm line leg
  • Moved the line1 and line2 neutral connections to both connect to the 16AWG connections with neutral from GFCI (no sharing of a 20AWG wire anywhere)
  • Moved the eStop to between the load leg of the power switch and the line leg of the main power contactor coil
  • Labelled the 5500W element, and tidy'd up a bunch of contact points (minor stuff)
Remaining concerns/questions:
  1. The volt/amp meter is only on line1, but there is draw on both line 1 and line 2 for 120V. Is that a problem/fixable somehow?
  2. The lamps on each pump/aux circuit are only behind a 10A fuse, should there be 1A fuses between the pump/aux switch and each respective pump/aux lamp?
 

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Designs by others use a separate relay to implement the safe start, but I figured out how to use the main power contactor in a self latching mode to eliminate the separate relay. Once the main power contactor is closed, it's coil is powered from the output of the contactor itself. Opening the main power switch will disconnect power to the contactor coil, and power is disconnected. Once powered off, the safe start interlock is rearmed.

My control panel uses another relay for the safe start. I love your idea. Less steps. Less parts. Less wire. I cannot think of a downside!
 
Yes, it is the safe start interlock. The main power cannot be turned on (the main contactor closed) if any of the pump or element switches is in the on position. Designs by others use a separate relay to implement the safe start, but I figured out how to use the main power contactor in a self latching mode to eliminate the separate relay. Once the main power contactor is closed, its coil is powered from the output of the contactor itself. Opening the main power switch will disconnect power to the contactor coil, and power is disconnected. Once powered off, the safe start interlock is rearmed.

Brew on :mug:

@doug293cz what do you think of v1.1 of the diagram? Can I get partial credit for the extra credit, for simply attempting? ;)
 
@doug293cz what do you think of v1.1 of the diagram? Can I get partial credit for the extra credit, for simply attempting? ;)
You have the E-stop switch in the correct location now. That's the good news.

The not so good news is that while the panel looks like it will operate, and be safe, it won't operate the way you desire (unless you really want it to operate in the manner I will now describe):
  • The Volt/Amp meter will only measure ~120V since it is wired between one hot and neutral. To measure ~240V the power inputs need to be connected to the two hots.
  • The Main Power indicator lamp and the EZBoil will both be powered on when the main power switch is "Off", and the pump, aux, and element switches are "Off". See if you can trace the circuits to figure out why this is so - it will help you learn.
Correct implementation of the "Safe Start" interlock requires that the main power switch be a 2NO type, and that the interlock circuit pass thru the main power switch separately. Look at how this is done in the design below.

DSPR300 2-Pump 240V  2 Vessel RIMS 40A.PNG


To add an E-stop to the above design, place it in the short blue wire between the main power switch and the main power contactor coil.

Brew on :mug:
 
You have the E-stop switch in the correct location now. That's the good news.
YAY!
The Volt/Amp meter will only measure ~120V since it is wired between one hot and neutral. To measure ~240V the power inputs need to be connected to the two hots.
Brilliant, thank you. I understand now that the voltage measurement is the two lines in to the meter, and the amperage measurement is through the transformer loop. I assume then that since I'll have the meter on the 240V circuit only, that all of the 120V Amperage is out of scope. If I understand all these components correctly, the biggest draw on the 120V circuit is going to be my pump, and that thing draws a max of 1A so I'm really not going to be measuring much there anyway. How am I doing here?
The Main Power indicator lamp and the EZBoil will both be powered on when the main power switch is "Off", and the pump, aux, and element switches are "Off". See if you can trace the circuits to figure out why this is so - it will help you learn.
Correct implementation of the "Safe Start" interlock requires that the main power switch be a 2NO type, and that the interlock circuit pass thru the main power switch separately. Look at how this is done in the design below.
I based my diagram around similar ones you created, with the safe start diagram being from this post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ectrical-diagrams.382286/page-23#post-7848752
I also missed the post below it which has a very similar diagram to the one you posted in your example above. But yep, I see that the dotted line jumpered over the two contacts on the element switch would have the EZBoil turned on when all of the interlocked switches are off (as well as even the main power switch is off). Also, the dotted line would power the connection to the meter and the main power lamp in the same scenario.

I touched up the diagram again (edit: attached it)

Looking at the latest example you provided there is no 1 amp fuses between the 10AWG line2 and the 20AWG line to the element switch. I thought any time you change wire sizes you should protect the smaller wire with a fuse?

Also, see ho wi shared one 1 amp fuse between the interlock and the power to second pole on the main power switch? Is that kosher? If not, I'm going to have five fuses holders hanging out of my panel. :/

Thank you for your help!
 

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YAY!

Brilliant, thank you. I understand now that the voltage measurement is the two lines in to the meter, and the amperage measurement is through the transformer loop. I assume then that since I'll have the meter on the 240V circuit only, that all of the 120V Amperage is out of scope. If I understand all these components correctly, the biggest draw on the 120V circuit is going to be my pump, and that thing draws a max of 1A so I'm really not going to be measuring much there anyway. How am I doing here?
The current sensing transformer is on the black hot line, so it will measure the element current, pump current, and aux current. Element current goes thru both the black and red hots. Pump and aux current go thru the black hot and neutral. The only currents that won't be measured are the contactor coils, PID, and alarm currents, which should total less than 0.5 amp.

I based my diagram around similar ones you created, with the safe start diagram being from this post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ectrical-diagrams.382286/page-23#post-7848752
You caught me. I didn't catch the problem in that design. I need to go back and see if I can figure out why I did it that way in that design. I also need to put a better design in that thread.
I also missed the post below it which has a very similar diagram to the one you posted in your example above. But yep, I see that the dotted line jumpered over the two contacts on the element switch would have the EZBoil turned on when all of the interlocked switches are off (as well as even the main power switch is off). Also, the dotted line would power the connection to the meter and the main power lamp in the same scenario.

I touched up the diagram again (edit: attached it)

Looking at the latest example you provided there is no 1 amp fuses between the 10AWG line2 and the 20AWG line to the element switch. I thought any time you change wire sizes you should protect the smaller wire with a fuse?
You caught me again. The 20AWG black wire should be fused. It was an oversight, and I will go back and correct. Sometimes whether to fuse or not is a judgement call. For example, you often plug appliances into 15A or 20A outlets with wires not rated for that current. Wires inside structure walls are more of a risk for over heating than are wires in the open air. Inside an enclosure, it is often acceptable to use short runs of unfused wire to devices that are intrinsically current limited. Also, very fine wires (in enclosures) can act as fuses in the case of a short, without creating enough heat to start a fire. So, most designs don't fuse at all wire reductions, but only where there is a lot of downstream wiring. Another consideration is how many connections are in the unfused net, as fewer connections mean fewer possible points of failure, as do shorter wire lengths.

Also, see ho wi shared one 1 amp fuse between the interlock and the power to second pole on the main power switch? Is that kosher? If not, I'm going to have five fuses holders hanging out of my panel. :/
I haven't been able to come up with a reason why that would be a problem.
Thank you for your help!

Version 1.2 looks good. You've obviously learned a lot going thru this process.

Thanks for the feedback on things I can do better. I'm always working to improve my designs, and catch mistakes that I miss.

Brew on :mug:
 
Version 1.2 looks good. You've obviously learned a lot going thru this process.

Thanks for the feedback on things I can do better. I'm always working to improve my designs, and catch mistakes that I miss.

Brew on :mug:

Thank you so much for your help. Time to start ordering things and hacking them together, I'm certain ill document it all. So far this has been a ton of learning and stepping just a touch outside my comfort zone, but more importantly its been a ton of fun! I'm such a nerd. :)
 
@doug293cz any issue with replacing all the wiring that's 20AWG (except the PID control wires to the SSR) with 16AWG wire? Im looking at this wiring pack from @Bobby_M:

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/wirepack.htm

And theres more than enough 16AWG red wire there, but no 20AWG. Don't really feel like ordering a separate spools of red, white, and black 20AWG if I can just use the 16AWG in that pack.

Thoughts?
 
No issues using wire larger than necessary. Only downside is that the heavier wire is more difficult to work with.

Brew on :mug:
 
I only asked because I spent the weekend drawing a diagram up for a 120v RIMS setup, and came here to check to see if anyone did the same and found quite a few different drawing from you.
 
I only asked because I spent the weekend drawing a diagram up for a 120v RIMS setup, and came here to check to see if anyone did the same and found quite a few different drawing from you.
Even tho I basically copied @doug293cz diagrams, I feel like there is something to be said for drawing it out and understanding it on your own. You can see that in the iterations and notes in this thread, I learned a bit by doing it.
 
Hey @doug293cz while laying out my components and wiring, i noticed what I consider a couple of flaws in the v1.2 diagram. Can you double check my logic as well as proposed solution please?

A.) The voltmeter, main power lamp, and EZBoil will power on if any of the pump, aux or element switches is in the On position. I don't find it desirable, I'd like all power (with the exception of the interlock circuit) to come from the main contactor to anything in the panel.

B.) If either or both of the pump or aux switches are in the on position, and the element switch is in the on position, the element contactor coil will be energized (even tho no power is fed to the high amp poles) and the element power lamp will be lit. I think that is misleading, as the element is not actually energized in this scenario.

So, I disconnected the second leg of power off of input line2 to the lower NO contact block of the main power switch. I then ran the power from line2 off of the main power contactor to the lower NO contact block of the main power switch. I also ran another line off of the same pole of the NO contact block to the eStop to complete the self latching circuit.

Solution:

I think this solves both A and B above, while still maintaining the interlock and self latching circuit.

Whatcha think?
 
Any update on version 1.3? I just recently got a 240V outlet installed in my garage and this is the closest panel build I have seen to what I would like to do. Just wanted to know if anyone had more input of whether the issues had been resolved by version 1.3.
 
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