Yeast Starter - who's right...?

[Brew_Meister_General]

With the intention of fermenting a 5 gal beer with an OG of 1.055...

Wyeast state that their 125ml smack pack can be directly pitched.

John Palmer says that I can prepare a starter with a 50ml pouch and 3 pints of wort.

Whereas Mr. Malty says I need a 125ml pouch and a 3.3 pint starter (or 2 packs).

So which one's correct? Supposedly I need a cell count of 193 billion.

Thanks.

 

[BigFloppy]

pitch a 2L starter and go for it... slightly over won't hurt anything

 

[Mexibilly]

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[arnobg]

I recently did my first starter and had a question too...not trying to hijiack your post. What is the downside if overpitching? Is it just having to wait longer for it to drop out of suspension or are there negatives to the taste result?

 

[Rhumbline]

At 1.055 it's probably not so critical. What I've learned is that higher gravity beers will definitely benefit from a starter or double pitching. I think the range I've seen is 1.070 or higher.

As for the possible results, I know some Saisons are intentionally under pitched to emphasize certain flavors. Someone smarter than me will be along shortly to explain in more detail.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Well the truth is I'm actually aiming to ferment 6 gal with an OG of 1.060 I just used those numbers above for the sake of simplicity.

It was just when putting those numbers into Mr. Malty it suggested a starter of 6 pints which (according to John Palmer) means I'll need 4.5 cups of DME and 2.25 teaspoons of yeast nutrients which just seemed like a hell of a lot.

Assuming I have a viability of 94% of course, I've never used liquid yeast so I'm just guessing that it'll only be a few days old.

 

[d3track]

It will probably be closer to 30-60 days old (or more). I don't know cups or pints, but for that gravity a 2l starter of 1.040 wort will usually get you what you need (200g dme and 2000ml h2o)

 

[Gavin C]

All are right.

all the options you listed will ferment the beer.

you need to decide for yourself what is the better/best method based on your own readings.

A question like this will always elicit a variety of answers in the form of

I do x and my beer is great. 99.9% of folks generally think they make great beer.

If using a liquid yeast I always target a specific pitch rate based on the following

age (read estimated viability) of the yeast

Size of batch

OG

Type of beer, ale, hybrid or lager

I'm in the appropriately sized starter camp. I never pitch liquid yeast without a starter. If using dry yeast I always rehydrate it based on the manufacturer's guidelines.

This is the calculator I use for making starters. It uses the open source data from the Braukaiser. So much to learn at this guys brilliant website/wiki/blog.

The result is healthy fermentation profiles resulting in beers with flavors I enjoy and ones I am happy to share with others.

Recent example for a 5.5 gallon batch of 1.053 lager was ~2.5 liter starter decanted and pitched cool at 48F. Yeast WLP833


You need to decide what method is right for you and your priorities, your taste, your results.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Well after some research I've learn that I don't need nearly as much as I thought...

242b cells required:

6 gal (22ltr)
1.060

2.5ltr starter
600g dry malt extract
1 2/3 teaspoon yeast nutrients

with...

INTERMITTENT SHAKING

I've just learned about stir plates as well so I'm totally up for getting one of those.

 

[RM-MN]

Well after some research I've learn that I don't need nearly as much as I thought...

242b cells required:

6 gal (22ltr)
1.060

2.5ltr starter
600g dry malt extract
1 2/3 teaspoon yeast nutrients

with...

INTERMITTENT SHAKING

I've just learned about stir plates as well so I'm totally up for getting one of those.

Before you get too concerned about the number of yeast cells needed and how you can get there, I have a couple articles for you to read.

http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2015/02/yeast-starters-stirred-vs-not.html

From the info in these two experiments, it appears that you can vary the pitch rate a great deal and get nearly the same beer and that unless you are impatient or short on time, you don't really need a stir plate. Note carefully the pitch rate on the first article. The difference between the under-pitched beer and the over pitched beer is a factor of 40.

 

[jmcquesten]

Well after some research I've learn that I don't need nearly as much as I thought...

242b cells required:

6 gal (22ltr)
1.060

2.5ltr starter
600g dry malt extract
1 2/3 teaspoon yeast nutrients

with...

INTERMITTENT SHAKING

I've just learned about stir plates as well so I'm totally up for getting one of those.

It seems like 600 g of DME for 2.5 liters is a bit high. I thought it was 100 g per liter of water, so maybe 250 grams DME for 2.5 liters.

I could be wrong though. I just ran a starter through brewers friend, and it said I needed a little over 600 grams for a 6 liter starter for a gravity of 1.036. This was for a second step up of a starter for a 12 gallon Belgian ale set at "pro brewer" high gravity ale. First step was a 2 liter stir-plate starter made with the same gravity wort. Second step up was a shaking starter because I don't have a flask big enough for a 6 liter stir plate starter.

 

[Gavin C]

Well after some research I've learn that I don't need nearly as much as I thought...

242b cells required:

6 gal (22ltr)
1.060

2.5ltr starter
600g dry malt extract
1 2/3 teaspoon yeast nutrients

with...

INTERMITTENT SHAKING

I've just learned about stir plates as well so I'm totally up for getting one of those.

That's enough DME for a 6L starter.

100g in a 1L volume will get you a 1.037 or a 1.040 wort depending on whether you add the DME first and add water to the desired volume or collect your planned volume aof water and add the DME.

Your starter will have a gravity of about 1.09. That is not ideal as your not going to get any more yeast growth than had you used 250g of DME.

That high a gravity also has the potential to stress the yeast resulting in potential negative consequences for your beer.

Stir plates are a great way to get more yeast growth from a given weight of DME. In future try not to exceed a gravity of 1.04 with your starter. Your starter is 1.09. Not good

The link I shared earlier to Braukaiser has a ton of info on yeast growth rates, starter gravity and stiriing v shaking etc. Good stuff.

Stirred starters will get you greater returns of yeast per gram of DME. Stir-plates are simple cheap and fun to make for about ~$20 or less depending on what you got lying around.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

That's enough DME for a 6L starter.

100g in a 1L volume will get you a 1.037 or a 1.040 wort depending on whether you add the DME first and add water to the desired volume or collect your planned volume of water and add the DME.

Oh right I read that it was 90g (1/2 cup) of DME per 568ml for 1.040. Either way I plan to trial this first this by mixing 250g of DME with 1 litre of boiled water.

I also read an article today on underpitching, about how it induces a lagtime of 2 day in which yeast cell reproduce a much higher number of daughter cells, altogether producing a different flavour profile like more esters, phenolics and fusels and even a lower FG - http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

 

[Gavin C]

Oh right I read that it was 90g (1/2 cup) of DME per 568ml for 1.040. Either way I plan to trial this first this by mixing 250g of DME with 1 litre of boiled water.

I also read an article today on underpitching, about how it induces a lagtime of 2 day in which yeast cell reproduce a much higher number of daughter cells, altogether producing a different flavour profile like more esters, phenolics and fusels and even a lower FG - http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

OK. Try out a 1.09 starter. (250g DME in 1L water) Good luck with that. Not sure I follow your reasons why you would want to waste all that DME and yeast though.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

OK. Try out a 1.09 starter. (250g DME in 1L water) Good luck with that. Not sure I follow your reasons why you would want to waste all that DME and yeast though.

Did you even read what I wrote? I stated that I intend to trial this by starting with 1 litre. By your logic, 250g of DME is what I would need, thus by starting with a safe amount of water I am able to gradually increase the amount until the gravity reaches 1.060, duh.

 

[Gavin C]

Did you even read what I wrote? I stated that I intend to trial this by starting with 1 litre. By your logic, 250g of DME is what I would need, thus by starting with a safe amount of water I am able to gradually increase the amount until the gravity reaches 1.060, duh.

Yes I read your posts about using 250g DME in 1 L starter. Clearly (duh?) I am not of a suitable level of intellect to involve myself in your thread.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Yes I read your posts about using 250g DME in 1 L starter. Clearly (duh?) I am not of a suitable level of intellect to involve myself in your thread.

I'll leave you to it.

In the interest of both parties I believe it should remain that way.

 

[Pappers_]

From www.mrmalty.com

As a ballpark measurement, use about 6 ounces (by weight) of DME to 2 quarts of water. If you're working in metric, it couldn't be easier. Use a 10 to 1 ratio. Add 1 gram of DME for every 10 ml of final volume. (If you're making a 2 liter of starter add 200 grams of DME to the flask, then fill the flask with water until you have 2 liters total.)

Best practice seems to be to have your starter wort gravity range from 1.030 to 1.040. Hope this helps!

 

[RmikeVT]

If you have a fresh (check the date) culture of Wyeast or Whitelabs you are PROBABLY fine directly pitching into our 1.055 wort as long use you properly aerate/oxygenate. But you never know how the yeast was handled and what it was subjected to after it left the manufacturers' lab. So, if you have the time and resources you can't go wrong with a 1000-1500 mL starter.

I use this site:
http://www.yeastcalculator.com/
and have a stir plate and select K. Troesler's setting, as he is a microbiologist and know his stuff.

Another reputable guy backing up K. Troesler's Method:
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/11/03/estimating-yeast-growth/

 

[eber1988]

yea 1.060 is still way to high for a starter. you want it to be around 1.035-1.040 so you will want around 250-280 grams of dme for a 2.5 liter starter.