Yeast starter for old yeast

[SKBugs]

I bought some liquid yeast at a discount and the clerk told me to make a starter for it overnight to make sure it was still a goer. I’m not sure of the best way to do it for a starter.
I was going to add it to about 12-16 ounce of water with a dash of honey and maybe add some go ferm as well.
Does anyone have any advice on a proper way it should be done?

 

[RPh_Guy]

1. Use honey to make 500mL (~16oz) of 1.030-1.040 must.
2. Add yeast nutrient.
3. Heat pasteurize.
4. Chill.
5. Aerate.
6. Sanitize the packet/ scissors. Add the yeast.
7. Cover loosely with foil.
8. Let it sit for 12-72 hours, shaking or swirling to aerate as often as possible.

 

[NeverDie]

1. Use honey to make 500mL (~16oz) of 1.030-1.040 must.
2. Add yeast nutrient.
3. Heat pasteurize.
4. Chill.
5. Aerate.
6. Sanitize the packet/ scissors. Add the yeast.
7. Cover loosely with foil.
8. Let it sit for 12-72 hours, shaking or swirling to aerate as often as possible.

What kind of yeast nutrient, and how much, is best for this purpose?

 

[RPh_Guy]

What kind of yeast nutrient, and how much, is best for this purpose?

"Fermaid O" seems best in my opinion... I'd use about 2-3 grams (~1/2tsp) when making a starter for expired yeast.

As far as I know, there's no real right or wrong. You probably don't want to overdo it with DAP though because it can be toxic.

 

[IslandLizard]

What @RPh_Guy said. ^

How many cells you need to pitch depends on the size and gravity of your batch of mead.
Depending on how old and viable that yeast still is, it may take a few days to grow enough cells for a proper pitch, especially if you don't use a stir plate or shaker.

I haven't made meads yet, so things may look different, but when making yeast starters for beer, the color change from dark to light is my telltale that the yeast is viable and growing. I give it an extra day or 2, once that change happens, or when a layer of yeast starts to settle out.

 

[NeverDie]

What about adding vitamins and minerals too? Or is that unnecessary in a starter?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fermaid O and the yeast packet have everything needed.

 

[CKuhns]

100 Deg F 800 mls (1.5 cups or so) water, 1/3 to 1/2 cup honey, 1/2 tsp of any of the following Fermaid-O, Go-Ferm, Fermaid-K & DAP 2-1, 20 Raisins all work mix well and add your yeast. Cover with a cloth or loose piece of aluminum foil and aerate by swirling it every time you walk past it. You should see activity in a few hours at most. if you have a stir plate even better.

 

[NeverDie]

I bought some liquid yeast at a discount and the clerk told me to make a starter for it overnight to make sure it was still a goer. I’m not sure of the best way to do it for a starter.
I was going to add it to about 12-16 ounce of water with a dash of honey and maybe add some go ferm as well.
Does anyone have any advice on a proper way it should be done?

Since you ask about a proper way, I suppose a proper thing to do would be to check your yeast population numbers using a microscope and a hemocytometer, using a dye so you can disregard the dead yeast cells. With that insight, I guess (?) a proper way would be to not pitch until your population numbers grow enough in the starter to become nominal. If your numbers are quite low you might have to do a stepped starter.

Maybe (?) there are easier ways to count your viable yeast population, but this seems like the gold standard that the pro's use. I actually don't know of any other way.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Maybe (?) there are easier ways to count your viable yeast population

There aren't, which is why we generally don't.

 

[NeverDie]

@OP: so the conclusion is: discount bin yeast really isn't a bargain when you consider all the extra work involved to resurrect it properly. Even if it were free.

 

[CKuhns]

Maybe, But I personally try to start all the yeast I pitch. For me, starting them to get them acclimated to the environment for 24-36 hours allows for a good large colony at pitch and IMO a quicker and cleaner ferment. (Others would disagree or argue not that much difference.)

 

[NeverDie]

Maybe, But I personally try to start all the yeast I pitch. For me, starting them to get them acclimated to the environment for 24-36 hours allows for a good large colony at pitch and IMO a quicker and cleaner ferment. (Others would disagree or argue not that much difference.)

I want to agree with you, but in the OP's case, suppose only 5% of the yeast is still alive. So, maybe 5 billion cells if that were true. Would the OP be able to build a large enough colony in 24-36 hours? How would he know whether he had succeeded or failed in that without doing a hemocytometer measurement (which, let's face it, not many people have the tools or inclination to do).

 

[RPh_Guy]

How would he know whether he had succeeded or failed in that without doing a hemocytometer measurement

It's pretty easy to use a pitch rate calculator, which provides a reasonable estimate.

Who cares if people want to buy expired yeast? All it takes is a little more time.

 

[NeverDie]

It's pretty easy to use a pitch rate calculator, which provides a reasonable estimate.

Who cares if people want to buy expired yeast? All it takes is a little more time.

Good point. I suppose if it's merely old rather than abused, that would work.

When I was writing this, I was thinking of some of the packets of Omega yeast at my local homebrew supply store. A lot of them are puffed up beyond belief, yet they'd still sell it to you with a straight face and without comment. That's more than just age I think.

 

[IslandLizard]

@OP: so the conclusion is: discount bin yeast really isn't a bargain when you consider all the extra work involved to resurrect it properly. Even if it were free.

I beg to differ.

It's advised to always make a starter from a liquid yeast pack, regardless of age. That's the easiest way to guarantee viability while ramping up cell count at the same time.

If it turns out the old pack is indeed much less viable than the date suggests, it'll take a few extra days to a week to ramp them up, not a big investment in time or effort, given the entire process of making a mead or brewing beer. OK, the honey (or DME) costs money, so that may wipe out the savings of the 'bargain.'

No, I don't count cells, I rely on yeast calculators, and what my eyes tell me.

 

[NeverDie]

I beg to differ.

It's advised to always make a starter from a liquid yeast pack, regardless of age. That's the easiest way to guarantee viability while ramping up cell count at the same time.

If it turns out the old pack is indeed much less viable than the date suggests, it'll take a few extra days to a week to ramp them up, not a big investment in time or effort, given the entire process of making a mead or brewing beer. OK, the honey (or DME) costs money, so that may wipe out the savings of the 'bargain.'

No, I don't count cells, I rely on yeast calculators, and what my eyes tell me.

OK, so now we're finally getting to the crux of it. What is it that your eyes tell you that let you know it needs a few extra days to a week?

 

[SKBugs]

In the interest of full disclosure the yeast is WYeast 4184. I only bought it coz I wanted a quick turnaround mead of low abv of a couple of gallons. They only had this yeast EC1118 and M05. So I thought it’d be fun to try. I actually bought 2 packs so maybe I would be better to throw them both in at once. They both have the same manufacturing date of March 2018.

 

[IslandLizard]

They both have the same manufacturing date of March 2018.

Jeez! Those are a year old. They definitely need a starter, even if you use both.
I really hope you got them for free.

 

[CKuhns]

LOL I have used packets 2 plus tears old. I recently pitched a 4 year old Fleischmanns bread yeast in JAOM that i thought was dead. Used it 2 years ago in a JAOM forgot to refridgerate it and put it in a starter. My wife said I should go buy new stuff ax she was sure they were dead. It took a bit to start but after 48 hours was gojng strong. Pitched it and was chewing grough the honey in just a few hours.

If you want to know for sure if the yeast are viable. Do a starter. If not and their dead then pitch some good ones on top of it as the dead yeast are food for the newer ones. No risk unless they carry some bacteria with them, just time.

 

[SKBugs]

Jeez! Those are a year old. They definitely need a starter, even if you use both.
I really hope you got them for free.

Haha. Yeah I’m thinking that now. I’ve only ever used dry yeast so I’m a total noob to the liquid variety

 

[SKBugs]

If you want to know for sure if the yeast are viable. Do a starter. If not and their dead then pitch some good ones on top of it as the dead yeast are food for the newer ones. No risk unless they carry some bacteria with them, just time.

Yeah that’s the ticket I reckon. I like the protocol previously posted but also have a good plan B.

Thanks for a great discussion.

 

[IslandLizard]

LOL I have used packets 2 plus tears old. I recently pitched a 4 year old Fleischmanns bread yeast in JAOM

Those are dry yeasts, they're much more stable in that form, even unrefrigerated. They can be stored for years (freezing is best) with very little deterioration, as long as the packages stay dry inside. But strain selection is very limited. I've successfully used US-05 that was 4 years past it's expiration date (making it 7 years old), most of that time it was stored in the freezer.