Wyeast 3724 - Dry Substitute -Three Options

[GoodTruble]

I'm going to brew my favorite summer beer this weekend, but looking to substitute the usual yeast, Wyeast 3724 (Belgian Saison), with one of three dry yeasts I already have onhand:

Mangrove Jack M29 - French Saison
Lallemand Belle Saison
Lallemand Farmhouse Hybrid Saison

I'm leaning toward the farmhouse as likely to be most similar, but I've never used any of the three, so open to any input or suggestions.

Thank you.

 

[GoodTruble]

Actually, I found a frozen 3724 harvest that I forgot about. I'm going to try making a starter with it. If the starter doesn't work, one of the above dry yeasts will be my backup plan.

 

[Spundit]

3724 is a diastaticus strain. Llellemond farmhouse is not. I am not sure if that would matter with your recipe or not.

I have only used belle saison once (for beer) and it was a bit tart with a hint of spice. It was good... pretty tame. Looks like I fermented it at 70- 72. Warmer may have produced more character.

 

[GoodTruble]

@Spundit - Thanks. I'm not looking for tart. So I may take Belle Saison off the contender list for now. I've used 3724 many times, and though it's diastaticus, it usually still leaves a lost of malt flavor behind, light but not too dry. So maybe Farmhouse is the way to go. Will see.

 

[dmtaylor]

Farmhouse should get you into the right neighborhood. The others, not so much. But all would make good beers, so there's no real bad options.

 

[GoodTruble]

Quick update - the 3724 starter turned out fine, so I am just sticking with that. Will use the others on other saisons this summer.

 

[monkeymath]

I'm sort of expecting the first two to be the same (no actual evidence or source though tbh). In particular, they produce the same kind of bland, oddly sweet beer. To be fair, many people like those strains, but they're far from 3724.

 

[GoodTruble]

Yeah, 3724 is a slower yeast, but for me it has consistently produced great beers.

 

[HM-2]

The Mangrove M29 is a monster fermenter, but has very little character other than some soft lemon and pepper notes. I wouldn't recommend it except maybe as a copitch to get over the propensity for Belgian saison strains to crap out at 1.030.

Put it this way- I'm glad I brewed my reason M29 Saison with some interesting experimental hops otherwise it would be rather dull.

 

[GoodTruble]

Ha. I just brewed a lemon radler. I bet the M29 would have been good for that one (I just used US-05 for that one).

 

[GoodTruble]

Just a quick update - I used the Lallemand Farmhouse to brew a Saison (blending in a bit of festbier wort I was brewing the same day - calling it a "September Saison"). It is an interesting yeast. It didn't have the full esters or smoothness of Wyeast 3724, but it does have the dry-ish malt flavor for a saison. I think it would be really good for Wits, and I may use it for a Gruit I'm brewing next brew day (may pitch directly onto the saison yeast cake).

 

[GoodTruble]

I used the farmhouse for a gruit - it worked great for that.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’ve never found a dry saison strain I like for complete fermentation. I have used 565 and once it slows, pitched Belle to finish. I still like 565 and 3724 best.

 

[GoodTruble]

I’ve never found a dry saison strain I like for complete fermentation. I have used 565 and once it slows, pitched Belle to finish. I still like 565 and 3724 best.

3724 is my favorite, and I've tried a lot of them.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I have a split batch with Belle Saision going now. My plan was to ferment half at a more typical temps using ambient temperatures (it has been in the 68F to 70F range...I just added a heat pad to boost it to 74F...Tilt says it is 1.010 after 4.5 days).

The plan for the second one was to ferment around 80F or maybe 85F to try and push more flavors. My heat controller malfunctioned about 24 hours into fermentation. I woke up to the controller reading 0.0, the power to the heating pad on, and the beer at 102F!! I am curious how this one will turn out. I did take a taste of a gravity sample, and it was yeasty and had a bit of an alholic nose, but tasted quite nice (for a warm 2 day old beer).

I did enjoy the one batch I made with Lallemand Farmhouse. I want to brew another batch swapping out some of the Pils malt for sugar to help drive higher attenuation. It might also be a great choice for a lower ABV Saison.

 

[dmtaylor]

I have a split batch with Belle Saision going now. My plan was to ferment half at a more typical temps using ambient temperatures (it has been in the 68F to 70F range...I just added a heat pad to boost it to 74F...Tilt says it is 1.010 after 4.5 days).

The plan for the second one was to ferment around 80F or maybe 85F to try and push more flavors. My heat controller malfunctioned about 24 hours into fermentation. I woke up to the controller reading 0.0, the power to the heating pad on, and the beer at 102F!! I am curious how this one will turn out. I did take a taste of a gravity sample, and it was yeasty and had a bit of an alholic nose, but tasted quite nice (for a warm 2 day old beer).

Belle Saison is a tricky yeast. It starts fast but finishes veeeeerrrryyy slooooooowly.

I predict that the room temperature or 74 F batch will take a full 3 more weeks to eventually hit a final gravity of 1.002.

The hot 102 F one, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it still takes a week or two to hit the same end point.

 

[Sipina]

I used the farmhouse for a gruit - it worked great for that.

Can you share the recipe? I am much interested and have the same yeast at hand.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm sort of expecting the first two to be the same (no actual evidence or source though tbh)

Correct - M29 is repacked Belle according to someone who should know.

 

[GoodTruble]

Can you share the recipe? I am much interested and have the same yeast at hand.

If you look up the 12 Beers of Christmas threads, the recipe is posted every year. I participated last year, and brewed the recipe pretty much exactly as stated (but using the dry Farmhouse yeast).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/12-beers-of-christmas-2022-edition.697954/

I think it's just the same recipe, but here are my notes......

CHRISTMAS GRUIT (5.5 gallons)

5 lb Wheat Malt (38%)

4 lb Munich Malt (31%)

2 lb Pilsner Malt (15%)

1 lb Wheat Malt, toasted 30 min @ 350*F (8%)

1 lb Medium Crystal Malt (40 to 60L) (8%)

1 carapils

1 flaked oats


Hops:

.75 oz Tettnang (4.5%AA) 90 Min

Add the following spices at the end of the boil:

4 oz juniper, crushed;

1 tsp ceylon cinnamon;

0.5 tsp bog myrtle/sweet gale;

0.25 tsp rosemary;

0.12 tsp mace;

two California bay laurel leaves.

1 lbs wildflower honey.

Farmhouse Hybrid Saison Yeast at 68F.

OG: 1.075 FG: 1.009

 

[HM-2]

Correct - M29 is repacked Belle according to someone who should know.

Are you sure? I've had completely different behaviours out of M29 (ultra fast ferment, almost no esters) and Belle (fast down to like 1.025 then suuuuuper slow and often stalls out, throws tonnes of esters).

 

[mashpaddled]

My understanding is that both Belle and M29 are derived from the same source as 3711--a strain known for pretty mild character at lower temperature. If you want to get assertive flavor out of it, you need to ferment it far hotter than you think. 89-90F. I'm serious.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Are you sure? I've had completely different behaviours out of M29 (ultra fast ferment, almost no esters) and Belle (fast down to like 1.025 then suuuuuper slow and often stalls out, throws tonnes of esters).

Yep, sure - that second one just sounds like a stressed fermentation for whatever reason