Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[beauvafr]

Oups.. my reading correction was off. I now have :

1.005 @ 78 F august 26th (corrected is 1.007)
1.003 @ 80 F august 31st (corrected is 1.005)
1.002 @ 80 F september 9th (corrected is 1.004)

Still bubbling every 4-5 min or so @80F.

Should I rack ?

 

[phuff7129]

Used 3724 for the first time and after reading this thread I was nervous how it would come out. My OG was 1.055 and I started fermentation out at 70 degrees. 24 hours later raised the temp to 75, another 24 hours raised up to 80, the next day raised it to 85 for 3 days. At the end of the first week it was at 1.020 so I was really pleased I did not get the infamous 1.030 stall. Raised it up to 90 and checked it 7 days later and it was at 1.008. Kept it at 90 for another week and it finished at 1.001! 98% apparent attenuation. Gravity sample tasted pretty good.

Cold crashing at 32 degrees for a two weeks and then re-ferment in the bottle to 3.2 vols.

 

[beauvafr]

First sampling from bottle, this beer is very dry!

However there is something I don't like about it now. It's way too much spicy. Cloves and pepper from the yeast are not balanced and way to high. Feels almost like astringent.

I think it will mellow over time so I'll wait a month or two before tasting again.

Have you guys experienced something similar?

 

[MarioM]

Just read through the entire thread and wanted to share my experience with what is now my favorite yeast.

I've used 3724 three times now. 1st & 2nd brews stalled for roughly 2 weeks and finished below 1.005 starting from 1.060 after 5 or 6 weeks at 80*f +.

The 3rd batch, a 5.5 batch brewed Sat Nov 8th, 2013, fermented with a 1.5 L starter using washed yeast from a previous batch. Pitched at 80*f and set my controller to ferment at 95*f from the start. My OG was 1.049 and three days later my SG is 1.006.

Pitch healthy yeast hot and ferment even hotter...

 

[MNBrewDad]

Great info Mario! Wish I would have found this thread before brewing my Belgian IPA on 11/2. OG was 1.058, pitched 1.6l starter at 70 and then ramped temp up gradually to 88. Checked at 3 weeks and it was only at 1.023 Gave it a good swirl and it started chugging away w/ CO2 bubbling out of the airlock every 15-20 seconds ever since. Hoping it will be done in another week. Next time I'll ferment it at 95 from the get go.

 

[g-star]

Next time I'll ferment it at 95 from the get go.

This is unnecessary and really a mistake if you're aiming for best flavor development. Even though this strain can be pushed to high temps, it is best to do it towards the end of fermentation to promote attenuation. Cranking it up that high that early will lead to fusels and off-flavors, even with this forgiving strain. Great success can be found with this yeast using the proper pitch rate, pure oxygen, and holding the temperature near 68-70F for the first 2-3 days. The key to getting full attenuation is adding simple sugar (8-16oz per 5gal) at this point and raising the temperature about 2F every 12 hours until you get to about 80-82F, and holding there until FG, which should be < 1.006 in approximately 7-10 days.

 

[highgravitybacon]

This is unnecessary and really a mistake if you're aiming for best flavor development. Even though this strain can be pushed to high temps, it is best to do it towards the end of fermentation to promote attenuation. Cranking it up that high that early will lead to fusels and off-flavors, even with this forgiving strain. Great success can be found with this yeast using the proper pitch rate, pure oxygen, and holding the temperature near 68-70F for the first 2-3 days. The key to getting full attenuation is adding simple sugar (8-16oz per 5gal) at this point and raising the temperature about 2F every 12 hours until you get to about 80-82F, and holding there until FG, which should be < 1.006 in approximately 7-10 days.

That is contrary to the advice from Wyeast;
"What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling. Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc."

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.5;wap2

 

[g-star]

That is contrary to the advice from Wyeast;
"What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling. Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc."

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.5;wap2

The yeast suppliers will also tell you that one smack pack or vial is enough yeast for any wort < 1.060, and to start your lager fermentations at 75F. That doesn't mean it is optimal practice.

I'm telling you what I've learned from experience...if you pitch enough yeast, oxygenate with pure O2, and use a simple sugar addition after high krausen, you won't need to push the temps that high. I've done it both ways with this strain, and the restrained temp approach gives the best results in terms of flavor, in my own personal opinion and via feedback/scoring that I've received through BJCP competitions.

 

[Sebas83]

The author of Farmhouse Ales also suggests those temps for 3724. And DuPont uses those temps as well.

Your pitch temp does make a difference. I've found that chilling to 70, pitching, and free rising into the 90's is a good method. It's safe and gets the job done FAST (3 day fermentation!). One caveat though, be careful when brewing a higher abv saison. That is when pitching at high temps and holding can go haywire. Above %6.5, I'll pitch low and slowly climb.

I've been really happy using high temps with saison I and III from White Labs. Wyeast Farmhouse Ale gets very fusel-y up that high.

 

[MNBrewDad]

Update to my 11/28 post: Temp corrected FG for my extract Belgian IPA ended up at 1.005 after holding at 88 degrees for the last three weeks. It will be six weeks total in the primary fermenter when I bottle on Saturday and is starting to taste pretty good despite finishing so dry. Definitely the oddest strain I've used yet but it also has the highest attenuation (~91% apparent). Patience is key if starting the ferment low. The recipe I used included Belgian Candi Sugar and I oxygenated the wort with pure O2 prior to pictching my starter. If I made the same recipe again I would try waiting and adding the sugar after high krausen as you suggest g-star.

 

[sweetcell]

i have been emailing with a tech at wyeast, and they wrote to me:

"The only trick we know so far to get 3724 to finish w/o stalling is running it at 90oF from the start."

 

[g-star]

i have been emailing with a tech at wyeast, and they wrote to me:

"The only trick we know so far to get 3724 to finish w/o stalling is running it at 90oF from the start."

I have had success starting this strain around 68F, letting it go for about 48hrs, then adding simple sugar (as a syrup) once activity showed the first signs of slowing. At this point, I ramp the temp up 2F/day to 80F and hold. Beer usually finishes around 1.004 - 1.006.

YMMV.

 

[Remmy]

I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.

 

[barrooze]

Looks like someone's romancing their bucket... You've got your priorities straight!

 

[Lopsy]

I pitch 3724 at 74 into 1.065 O.G. and immediately start to ramp it 2 degrees every 8 hours until it hits 90. Then I leave it for weeks... Many weeks. It does stall at 1.035, exactly as predicted, but I usually finish at 0.998-1.000. My recipe does have 3lbs of honey for 10 gallons.

 

[neilpcraven]

Mine is stuck at 1.035 after three and a half weeks. Thanks to this thread I didn't panic. Even though it's well into the 80s here during the day and sometimes hits the 90s, I've put one of those plant pot heating mats under the vessel and given it a little swirl. Every so often it gives me a little bubble to keep the faith

 

[ten80]

This thread is great, I just fermented my first beer with 3724 and I went from 1.047 to 1.008 in 18 days by pitching at ~75F and bringing the fermentation temperature to 90 degrees a couple degrees at a time by about the fifth day. I have been sitting at 1.008 for about five days and my expected FG is 1.007, so I am about to call it done!

I split my 7.5-gal batch and added dark candi syrup to half at about 6 days(~1.020) and the fermentation kicked up a bit.

 

[t-ross]

What do you guys think, am I done?


Day.........Temp............SG
0.............80...............1.064
9.............85.................1.026 Temp increased to 85
33............85...............1.014
42............85..............1.011-1.012 Noticeably less yeast in suspension

I'm fermenting in a heated water bath so temp control is pretty good. The temps listed are water temps, independent measurement from the thermostat.

Grain Bill (Partial Mash)

3# DME
0.75# Honey

1.5# Vienna
0.5# Flaked Wheat
0.5# Flaked Oats
3# German Pilsner

Mash at 148F, 1.25 qt/lb for 1 hour with 170 F mash out, batch sparge.

I haven't done any temp corrections on the gravity measurement but would only account for a ~.002 difference. I see people getting much lower FG with this yeast.

Could the flaked grains or Vienna cause lower attenuation? I am at ~83% AA which above the range given by wyeast for this beer.

Trying to decide if I should bottle or now or wait.

Thanks

 

[TAK]

T-Ross, have you taken other readings and those are the generalized milestones, or are those stand-alone readings? With this yeast, I'd wait until you verify the same gravity over multiple days. In my experience, it did much like yours and dropped into the twenties relatively fast and then crawled into the single digits, with just a point change over a few days at a time. If yours has been at 1.011 fir a while, you're probably good, but if that's you're only reading at 1.011, wait a few days and you might see it's still slowly attenuating.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

T-Ross, you can either to wait it out and feel free to push the temp into the 90s, or you can resuspend the yeast. I do this by blowing co2 through my racking cane into the carboy. This helps a lot with the high temp to have it finish quicker.

Either way, it is worth the wait.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Much easier to add a second yeast. Saison II, French Saison, Belle Saison, etc. Done in two weeks with all the same flavor.

 

[t-ross]

In going to give the higher temp a try. I'll go to around 90 for a week to see what that does.

I don't have CO2 but I'll rock the carboy a bit to get things stirred up.

 

[bizarrojosh]

What a fun thread! I was planning on having my SMaSH of Pilsner and Tettnang done in about 3 weeks using this yeast....Looks like it's not going to be done quite so early!

I'm just really happy to have found this thread as I had no idea that this yeast has given so many people so much trouble.

 

[evillalon]

I just brewed a SMaSH of pils and saaz. Pitched pretty hot at 80ish. Now sitting at 85. Going up to 90 in a few days, maybe a week. It already smells awesome.

 

[ten80]

Brewed a SMASH saison with about 5% abv using 3724. Pitched at 80f and fermented at 90f and the beer went down to 1.004 in about 2 weeks. Left on yeast for another week and bottled. No esters or undesirable flavors; just a slight peppery note and the crispy, dryness of a Belgian yeast. Very nice.

I'd not hesitate to use this yeast again. Temp control is key and the fact that I pitched the yeast while it was actively fermenting in a 2L starter probably helped it get going as well.

 

[ndsgr]

The first time I used this yeast (well, the White Labs version WLP565), I rigged an aquarium heater, pump and bucket to get it to 90° and it still crapped out at 1.030.

I recently tried again. I pitched a slightly larger starter and aerated with 90 seconds of pure O2. I let it free rise to 75° from a pitching temp of 65°. I held it at 75° for 3 weeks without even opening the lid on the chest freezer. No yeast rousing, no messing with it. Recipe contained all malt and no simple sugars. Mash temp was 149°; accidentally overshot by 1°. Boil was 90 minutes due to using Pilsner malt.

OG: 1.060
FG: 1.005

Just to complicate it further, I pitched a single vial of Brett B and let it sit 6 months. New final gravity was 1.003. I also split the batch and dry hopped 2.5 gallons with 1/4oz of Citra. Both versions are fantastic. The dry hopped one makes my IPA loving guests happy and the regular is enjoyed by pretty much everyone else.

Sorry if this screws up anyone's statistics on what works for this yeast and what doesn't...

 

[tagz]

I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.

Very funny pic. Add a couple of wine glasses and a bear rug and you've got yourself a nice evening.

As for OT content, I've given up using this yeast on its own. I did a follow up pitch of 3711 on my last batch. Less hassle and tastes fantastic.

 

[sweetcell]

As for OT content, I've given up using this yeast on its own. I did a follow up pitch of 3711 on my last batch. Less hassle and tastes fantastic.

yup. that's my MO with this strain. i'm just not patient enough. i feel i get most of not all of the flavor contribution from this yeast in that initial burst. 3711 gives me the dryness i'm looking for much faster and i don't need to use as much energy.

 

[tagz]

Have you ever harvested the mixed (3724/3711) cake afterward and used that on a batch?

 

[sweetcell]

Have you ever harvested the mixed (3724/3711) cake afterward and used that on a batch?

yup. works great. you don't get quite as much 3724 contribution but it's definitely still there. very nice mixed culture combo.