Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[Snarks]

Stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.025. Darn it, should have read this thread first! Held my fermentation way too low (for two weeks). Could have just taken advantage of Southern California summer! Now gonna have to do this the slow way . . . gave 'er a good, stiff swirl and have got 'er all snuggled up with a heating pad and wrapped in wool army blankets. Check back in about a week . . .

. . . could I just pitch a new yeast packet or is it way too late for that?

 

[rhythmsteve]

I personally think the 90 degree temp killed all your yeast


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[Twinkeelfool]

I personally think the 90 degree temp killed all your yeast


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You ever used this yeast?. My current batch has been at 90+ for a few weeks. It's gone from 1.025, to 1.006. Got about a week to go I reckon. This yeast is worth the wait IMHO.

 

[Snarks]

Sheesh, no idea how I'm going to get it up to 90+ unless we have a major heat wave. Right now it's sitting about 76 and bubbling every 6-7 seconds. I'm going to take that as a good sign. Too bad I can't leave the heating pad on overnight.

 

[sweetcell]

I personally think the 90 degree temp killed all your yeast

90*F will not kill yeast. in fact yeast are happier at 90 than at 65-70, however they tend to produce a lot of off-flavors at those temps... well, most yeasts. the dupont strain produces flavors we want at 90. but even lager yeast will be very happy at 90.

Sheesh, no idea how I'm going to get it up to 90+ unless we have a major heat wave.

in order to get & keep it that warm, you need to add heat via a brew belt, heating pad, heating blanket, etc.

 

[grizzly2378]

Mine has been at 90 degrees since I pitched it on 6/15. Checked today and the gravity is at 1.006. It's been slowly but steadily dropping for the past 5 weeks. Now the question is, how low will it go?

I had zero problems with this yeast. Pitched a healthy 2L starter and kept it warm (very warm) and it has marched right along.


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[g-star]

Mine has been at 90 degrees since I pitched it on 6/15. Checked today and the gravity is at 1.006.

5 weeks? Pitch at 90F? Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong.

This yeast can be done at 1.003 - 1.006 in 6-7 days if treated right, and without all of the nasty off flavors produced by pitching at the extreme high end.

Next time, use plenty of pure O2/healthy starter and pitch at 68F. Hold for 36hrs then add simple sugar and raise the temp 2F every 12 hours to about 80F.

 

[grizzly2378]

5 weeks? Pitch at 90F? Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong.



This yeast can be done at 1.003 - 1.006 in 6-7 days if treated right, and without all of the nasty off flavors produced by pitching at the extreme high end.



Next time, use plenty of pure O2/healthy starter and pitch at 68F. Hold for 36hrs then add simple sugar and raise the temp 2F every 12 hours to about 80F.

To be clear, I pitched at 68 and let the temp free rise after that. Wyeast themselves suggest temps up to 90 and several weeks may be required to finish off. As for nasty off flavors, I detected none in the samples I've tried. Just the saison funkiness I chose the yeast for in the first place.


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[mccabedoug]

I read up on 3724 and decided to use it anyway for the first time this summer. I pitched on Aug 3 and raised the temp to 90oF during the course of a day. The OG went from 1.060 to 1.035 in 4 days. I figured I was good to go. I also figured wrong. It sat at 1.035 for 2 weeks (while at exactly 90oF). I added a tsp of yeast nutrient, gave the bucket a stir and waited another week (still at 90oF). Now I am at 1.020. Like any other cheap brewer, I would like to re-use the 3724 yeast cake in subsequent beers so I am avoiding just adding US05.

So, I am going to give it another week since I am not brewing this week and will not brew Labor Day weekend either (out of town). However, if it is still stuck next week I am going to siphon off the stuck beer and pitch some US05 onto it. I can then save the remaining 3724 yeast cake for re-pitching.

Like a lot of other people have said: this yeast is unlike any others I have used in my 10+ years of brewing. Looking forward to the results, however.

 

[mccabedoug]

5 weeks? Pitch at 90F? Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong.

This yeast can be done at 1.003 - 1.006 in 6-7 days if treated right, and without all of the nasty off flavors produced by pitching at the extreme high end.

Next time, use plenty of pure O2/healthy starter and pitch at 68F. Hold for 36hrs then add simple sugar and raise the temp 2F every 12 hours to about 80F.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

 

[solavirtus]

Instead of US05, consider wyeast 3711. It attenuates like crazy and a lot of brewers, including me, really like the strain.

 

[mccabedoug]

Instead of US05, consider wyeast 3711. It attenuates like crazy and a lot of brewers, including me, really like the strain.

The reason I am considering US05 is that I have a Cream Ale that is done and I plan on harvesting the yeast. One pint will go in the fridge, one pint may be used to finish the 3724 Saison.

 

[g-star]

https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

There's a big difference between pitching at 90F, and raising the temp to 90F after more than 50% attenuation has been achieved at lower, more reasonable temperatures.

Most off the undesirable off-flavors are created during the initial stages of fermentation, and pitching at that high of a temperature exacerbates these problems.

 

[mccabedoug]

i have been emailing with a tech at wyeast, and they wrote to me:

"The only trick we know so far to get 3724 to finish w/o stalling is running it at 90oF from the start."

Since this is my first saison in my 10+ yr brewing career, I decided to follow this approach for a first go. Perhaps on the next one I will start out low and ramp up slowly.

There's a big difference between pitching at 90F, and raising the temp to 90F after more than 50% attenuation has been achieved at lower, more reasonable temperatures.

Most off the undesirable off-flavors are created during the initial stages of fermentation, and pitching at that high of a temperature exacerbates these problems.

Yes, I know this is the approach generally recommended, especially with lagers. However, in the case of this yeast, with saisons, I've not read any evidence indicating this. But hey, I'm new to saisons so what do I know? Again, perhaps on my next batch, using a HUGE-a** amount of the 2nd gen of this yeast, I will follow your recommended approach.

 

[highgravitybacon]

I have pitched this yeast at 90F and fermented at 100F. It was outstanding.

So anyone who is concerned about "off flavors" needs to actually try it instead of theorizing. This isn't like some lager yeast or a clean American ale style. It's a much different beast.

 

[tagz]

I have pitched this yeast at 90F and fermented at 100F. It was outstanding.

So anyone who is concerned about "off flavors" needs to actually try it instead of theorizing. This isn't like some lager yeast or a clean American ale style. It's a much different beast.

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

 

[grizzly2378]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I just brewed with 3724 in June and the saison has been in bottles for a few weeks now. I've tried a few and it doesn't have any alcohol burn to it. Just saison funkiness (the good kind). Mine fermented at 90 for several weeks.


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[grizzly2378]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I just brewed with 3724 in June and the saison has been in bottles for a few weeks now. I've tried a few and it doesn't have any alcohol burn to it. Just saison funkiness (the good kind). More conditioning won't hurt, but it's pretty good now. Mine fermented at 90 for several weeks.


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[grizzly2378]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I just brewed with 3724 in June and the saison has been in bottles for a few weeks now. I've tried a few and it doesn't have any alcohol burn to it. Just saison funkiness (the good kind). More conditioning won't hurt, but it's pretty good now. Mine fermented at 90 for several weeks. Never stalled out, but it was a slow march to 1.004.


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[grizzly2378]

Son of a...

Don't know why that last reply posted three times. Sorry!


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[g-star]

I have pitched this yeast at 90F and fermented at 100F. It was outstanding.

So anyone who is concerned about "off flavors" needs to actually try it instead of theorizing. This isn't like some lager yeast or a clean American ale style. It's a much different beast.

How did it score in BJCP judged competitions?

Also, Wyeast says otherwise:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/3724-fusel-alcohol-dilemma-487773/index2.html#post6324710

 

[highgravitybacon]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I don't condition [most] beers for any period of time [except lagers]. When they're done fermenting, I keg them and by the time they're force carbonated they're ready to drink.

Wyeast on their webpage an in email correspondence always says the same thing about the Belgian Saison. "Warm fermentation temperatures, at least 90°F (32°C), or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

 

[highgravitybacon]

How did it score in BJCP judged competitions?

Also, Wyeast says otherwise:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/3724-fusel-alcohol-dilemma-487773/index2.html#post6324710

First, a BJCP competition isn't a benchmark of quality nor does it establish anything except that two people agreed to a score within 5 points of each other. There's plenty of beers that score mid 20s one day, mid 30s the next and even in the 40s at times. I've watched 44 point beers score second in a category and a 37 point beer win Best of Show. So frankly, what two schmoes at a BJCP competition think of a beer is the least of my concerns. I've had nationally ranked judges confuse caramel malt with diacetyl. I had a famous BJCP judge call a beer "acetic" when it clearly wasn't. People make mistakes. They have bad judging days. They love a beer one day and hate it the next.

Second, again, we're talking about $15 worth of material. Try it yourself and see. It works. Countless other people have done it and it worked.

 

[g-star]

Not a benchmark, but almost always more reliable than one homebrewer's opinion of his/her own beer. If a beer scores well (or poorly) in aggregate over 2-3 competitions by certified judges, that is without a doubt a more objective measure of its merit.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Not a benchmark, but almost always more reliable than one homebrewer's opinion of his/her own beer. If a beer scores well (or poorly) in aggregate over 2-3 competitions by certified judges, that is without a doubt a more objective measure of its merit.

$8/entry + shipping at $10/comp is $54 for maybe decent feedback to see of pitching at 90f doesn't taste the way I want it? If I need to spend $54 to convince some random person that my beer tastes good, then I guess I'm going home with $54 in my pocket.

 

[g-star]

I guess this might be difficult for you to understand, but the investment in competitions is for objective feedback to help improve your brewing. As personal perception is too colored by subjective bias for fair assessment, this kind of feedback is invaluable.

However it seems in your case there's probably a lot you don't want to find out. Enjoy your homebrew.







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[mccabedoug]

The reason I am considering US05 is that I have a Cream Ale that is done and I plan on harvesting the yeast. One pint will go in the fridge, one pint may be used to finish the 3724 Saison.

Looks like no need to add any additional yeast(s). Got back from Labor Day weekend and the FG dropped to 1.004. Four weeks at 90oF to hit FG.

 

[amcclai7]

Ok, so I brewed a 1.053 OG sasion about 3 weeks ago and with the help of and warm water tub refilled once a day, it has gotten down to 1.012. i have read most of this thread and have seen people keg this beer anywhere from 1.012 to 1.002. I like the taste now. It is a touch sweet for my taste but certainly very good. For those of you that have worked with this yeast before would you go ahead and keg now or wait to see how far it drops? Also, I actually love hazy sasions and I want mine to drink that way but I don't want it to be a milkshake either. Should I cold crash for a few days or no?

 

[TAK]

Ok, so I brewed a 1.053 OG sasion about 3 weeks ago and with the help of and warm water tub refilled once a day, it has gotten down to 1.012. i have read most of this thread and have seen people keg this beer anywhere from 1.012 to 1.002. I like the taste now. It is a touch sweet for my taste but certainly very good. For those of you that have worked with this yeast before would you go ahead and keg now or wait to see how far it drops? Also, I actually love hazy sasions and I want mine to drink that way but I don't want it to be a milkshake either. Should I cold crash for a few days or no?

Based on what I saw with this yeast, it still needs to go further. Mine took several weeks after 1.012, at high temps, but got down to 1.004'ish.

 

[secondbase]

I used this yeast on a 1.049 saison.

8lbs Belgian Pilsner
1lb wheat
1lb sugar
bittered with 1/2oz CTZ, 2oz of strisselspalt at knockout
yeast nutrient

Mashed at 149º for 90 minutes. Pitched a big starter into 72º wort, a thin layer of krausen formed on the wort an hour after pitching. I kept it in a water bath with an aquarium heater. Held it at 72º for 48 hours, and the fermentation was wild. Ramped it up to the mid 80's over the next 72 hours and fermentation slowed down a bit. Ramped up to the low 90's and held it there for the duration. After 11 days the SG was 1.017 and it slowly chomped on those last points over the next three weeks. FG of 1.002 after a 5 week primary.

I never experienced a stall, and I think the key was a huge starter, yeast nutrient, ramping up the temperature, and patience. This yeast yields flavors and complexity unrivaled with any other commercial saison strain I've tried. Give this yeast a chance. Be patient, and nurture it. It's worth it.