Wyeast 3203 - PC de Bom Sour Blend impressions

[Arrheinous]

I didn't think of that. My concern was that the de Bom would get lactic in the two months but not have too much funk or complexity. If the pedio/diacetyl are too much then it will have to sit.

 

[dougdecinces]

Sadly I don't have an oxygen stone and I am going to be ready to start dosing my batch soon. Has anyone tried just agitating the wort with a mash paddle? If so, how long did you do it and were you happy with the results?

 

[osito]

Brewed a dark base for this yeast a month ago loosely based on a Flander's red grist. Mashed at 156 for an hour and sparged hot, OG was 1.059. Pitched 2 packs of De Bom at 80F into unaerated wort, set to a temp controlled heat belt at 80 and let it sit for primary fermentation. I was a bit worried at first since there was no krausen at all during the first week -- there was a decent amount of airlock activity for the first 3-4 days though. After the first week the gravity dropped to 1.012, taste was grainy and sweet and no perceivable sourness. I set the temp to 85F and let sit for 2 weeks without checking on it. This is what it looked like after checking on it:

pretty spooky

I added a small pitch of B. Lambicus for cherry aromatics and swirled the fermenter a bit to get some oxygen. Kinda wary of putting in pure O2 with my wand -- might take a sample in the next week or so to check gravity and sourness, if it's not so sour I'll put some O2 in and update the thread.

 

[TrickyDick]

I tasted mine at 48 hours after dosing with oxygen. I cannot detect any difference in flavor. Per the recommendations, I doses with another 15 seconds of oxygen. FWIW, WHen using my oxygen meter, I have found it takes considerably longer to achieve the desired oxygen levels when running the oxygen for one minute. I wonder also if the size of the batch has a significant influence. At any rate I'll check again Sunday night to see if there is any change. The Oud Bruin I'm really getting very very little if any funk or sour from, but the De Bomb is really very very nice for such a young beer just barely ten days old.

TD

 

[Rounding_error]

A couple folks mentioned reusing their De Bom cakes.

I am planning to re-pitch mine in addition to a Wyeast 5335 (L. Buchneri) and possibly using it for blending stock, anyone else come up with ideas for the second generation?

 

[TrickyDick]

A couple folks mentioned reusing their De Bom cakes.

I am planning to re-pitch mine in addition to a Wyeast 5335 (L. Buchneri) and possibly using it for blending stock, anyone else come up with ideas for the second generation?

I read somewhere in a blog by a well known brewmaster of a major sour barrel aged beer brewery that they maintain a master culture of their bug blend including yeast and bacteria. They feed it periodically. When they get a batch that comes out a little bit sour indicating that the bacteria are gaining an advantage, what they do is feed it some hopped wort to their master culture to inhibit the bacteria and bring the ratio of bacteria to yeast back in line. This is similar to maintaining a sourdough culture for baking, except that you would employ feedings of flour, and when the culture got too acidic and bacterial, you would conduct a "washing" taking a small amount of the main culture and dump the rest, then hold that at a temp that favors reproduction of the yeast. You might need to repeat this procedure if really neglected. Best thing to do with sourdough is to use and feed regularly.

Personally I'd consider pitching rates of the yeast cake into a new beer as per mr malty recommendations, and see how it turns out - if overly sour, brew a hoppy beer with that second yeast cake to inhibit the bacteria for a third generation.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Gave it another blast of oxygen, with no changes in flavor after another 48 hours. This was the third dose.

It seems wrong to be doing this #againstallinstincts

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[youreanimpulse]

Berliner on second gen De Bom at 8 days is already nicely tart and refreshing. I'm going for sour (possibly to serve with syrup) on this one so I'll keep checking weekly. Oh, and it's at SG 1.000 from 1.031, first time checking on it. Planning on bottling it's father/mother(?), the Oud Bruin, in about two weeks, right at the 8 week mark.

 

[dougdecinces]

I didn't think of that. My concern was that the de Bom would get lactic in the two months but not have too much funk or complexity. If the pedio/diacetyl are too much then it will have to sit.

You could always try dosing it with a brett culture in each bottle or in the keg. That would speed up the brett development significantly.

 

[dougdecinces]

Here is mine after a week in primary. I got airlock activity within 18 hours, but it died down within 3 days. I didn't take a gravity reading, but it tastes like it's at or near terminal gravity. It's not as sour as expected, but it's got a nice lactic twang that blends well with the base beer (which tastes just like pumpkin pie). I gently shook the fermenter for about 20 seconds with the lid off. I plan on repeating the process on Saturday.

 

[deuce13coop]

I brewed a standard 50/50 pils/wheat grist with a little carapils and some c-120 for a little color. Pitched 1 smack pack into a 6 gal vol, no aeration @80F in a better bottle. Free rose to 85-87F and let sit for 3 weeks. Racked onto 2 lbs of cherries and 1 lbs of blackberries and added 1oz of Hungarian Oak cubes soaked in Pinot Noir. It had considerable sourness and some funk at transfer. I then moved it inside and it sat @75 or so. I thieved a sample last night (@7 weeks) and it is fantastic. I was nervous about the aeration so I opted not to do it and despite that it has developed a nice bit of acetic character along with what is now pretty assertive sourness. It is very "Flanders-reddish" with complex berry and red wine notes. The only downside is that I mashed hot (looking at it more as a standard long-term sour) and its not getting any lower than about 1.018(from 1.066). Its not sweet by any means but I'd have preferred to get drier. Since its still hot here and I have another pack I plan on doing a rebrew on this and mash lower to try and dry it out and maybe blend. We'll see..

Overall though I'm very impressed. I had my doubts and figured at best it would be a one dimensional clean lactic sour but it is far more complex than I could have imagined for a 2 month old sour. Perhaps the wine soaked oak and fruit helped it along but it smelled fantastic even in the smack pack. I'll try and come back after proper bottling and conditioning.

 

[Oophaga]

What temperature did you mash? I am brewing today and going for a 153 mash temp to allow sweetness to cut the sharp acid and fruiting later will make it that mark more sour.

 

[deuce13coop]

I mashed @ 157F. If I had it to do all over again I'd shoot for 152F or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Oophaga]

Thanks for the quick reply!

 

[osito]

Checked on mine, it's been a 5 weeks and gravity is down to 1.006, flavor is decently tart with a bit of cherry and dark fruit and some of that brett doughy-funky flavor. With a bit more time I think it'll be good to go -- definitely want some more acidity here.

So, question about the O2 additions. Are these solely intended to promote production of acetic acid and ethyl acetate? I could see how they could potentially add complexity to the beer but I'd rather have more acidity from lactic acid at this point.

 

[BzurkoBrews]

8 weeks ago I used de Bom in a Berliner style beer. Yesterday I measured the pH and it's only 4.19. Acidity is barely noticeable in the taste but very much so in the aroma. Doesn't seem to have any off flavors. I did not aerate mid fermentation.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[deuce13coop]

So, question about the O2 additions. Are these solely intended to promote production of acetic acid and ethyl acetate? I could see how they could potentially add complexity to the beer but I'd rather have more acidity from lactic acid at this point.

That's what I assume. However, as I said, I opted to pass on that for fear of too much. I ended up with a nice amount of Acetic character anyway.

For those of you not getting much sourness, what was your ferment temps? Maybe cooler than the recommended 80-85F?

 

[hirschb]

Interesting info on the final gravity vs mash temp. I made an American Sour (pg 326 Tonsmeire), mashed at 154, dropped from 1.063 to 1.009. I'll likely use the same mash temp for the honey floral wheat sour from the book as well.

 

[TrickyDick]

I haven't tasted a sample of mine in over a week now. I followed directions and on day seven I dosed with 15 seconds of pure oxygen through a stone. Regulator set at 2L/min. I tasted at 48 hours and noticed no change. I did this a total of three times and then either out of laziness or fear that adding oxygen would be detrimental at this point, I just stopped checking and oxygenating. Added a total of 3x15 second oxygen bursts. Normally I'd have given regular beer 60-90 seconds worth. No noticeable changes in flavor could I detect over the three oxygen additions, waiting 48 hours after each addition.

As fas as temp, I pitched at 85° and after a week or so, temps fell to about 78°. Primary fermentation is well beyond finished for mine which is about 3 weeks old now. I do not have my notes on the SG readings, which it took using a refractometer and used correction calculations. It was below 1.010, and for some reason I want to say 1.006 but nor sure. Now I think it is between 75-78 degrees, the ambient temp.

At this point, I'm just going to let it ride and see how it turns out. For now, I think it has a great flavor, and is headed exactly where I want it to. Modestly sour, and yes, I would also like a bit more tartness, but I do not want to add any more oxygen. It's in plastic fermentation container so should get oxygen through that over time. Been thinking about adding some tart cherries.

In related news, The oud bruin I brewed on same day is in another vessel right next to this one. It is, in contrast, far less complex in flavor and acidity. So much so, that I added dregs from a bottle of jolly pumpkin to it. I used the other wyeast PC strain for oud bruin in this other beer.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[gometz]

I think I inhibited my lacto bacteria. I made the mistake thinking that only IBU matters, not total alpha acids and added a very late addition of Nelson. Has a mild sourness to it, but not tart. Not a bad flavor though.

I have another pack that I will make a golden sour with. Only 0.5 oz saaz at 60 minutes for that one.

 

[Oophaga]

error

 

[osito]

Checking on mine, it's been about a month and a half at 85-90F, only aerated once by swirling the fermenter. It's a bit acidic, but the strongest notes are of ethyl actetate and acetic acid which is surprising to me since exposure to oxygen was fairly limited. the base i brewed was dark and it kind of reminds me of st bon chien in a way.. but to me this is not a good thing since OG is only 1.054 yet tastes like a big harsh 11% beer. gravity is at 1.009 but i measured that with a refractometer and used the brewsmith tool to measure fermenting gravity with OG.

curious to see how this changes or if it gets more ethyl acetate. if so i might just end up dumping it.

 

[rburditt]

I used the Oud Bruin in a sour brown recipe about 6 weeks ago and checked the gravity yesterday. For the first several weeks, it was only mildly sour. Yesterday, the gravity has dropped to 1.010 (1.013 about 2 weeks ago). It has much more sourness to it now. Probably the perfect amount but I'd like the beer to continue to develop w/out adding more sourness. To save space, I moved it from 80-85 degree environment to a place in the house that is around 75, give or take a couple of degrees. When I brewed it, I also added dregs from a few different bottles, some with brett. Will this thing continue to build complexity w/out souring further?

 

[deuce13coop]

Not sure about increased sourness but for sure adding Brett means waiting if you're planning on bottling.


http://instagram.com/ranchobigelowbrew

 

[Oophaga]

De bom contains brett already, the attenuation of said brett is an unknown factor though.

 

[TrickyDick]

I racked mine today into carboys. Added more oak because I had forgotten I already added it DOH!! Anyways, tasted the oud bruin and it has progressed nicely. The pumpkin dregs were helpful in my opinion.
The de bomb smells awesome. I didn't taste it. I was a bit shy on volume. I might dilute one carboy to five gallons with about a half to 3/4 gallon water. Going to test pH and hydro samples tonight after work. I'll report back. Saved some dregs of the de bomb in case I want to use again. By all counts I probably will use again, but will reserve final judgement once I have a finished beer in the glass.

TD

 

[youreanimpulse]

De Bom rocks. I've been sampling my Oud Bruin for carb level (not carbed really at 1.5 weeks) and I'm really happy with the profile. Cascade-esque, clean lacto sour. Nice in the brown base. Second generation soured even faster in my Berliner. Haven't bottled that yet though.

 

[Mark_tries_brewing]

Does De Bom have much of a krausen? I think first post said he went through 3 in 7 days and then a pelicle formed but has there been much volume to the foam for other users?

 

[hirschb]

Does De Bom have much of a krausen? I think first post said he went through 3 in 7 days and then a pelicle formed but has there been much volume to the foam for other users?

I got a small by noticeable krausen on both batches I've used. This krausen has dissipated rapidly, then either did nothing (some white pellicle specs), or gotten a full on bubbly pellicle. Then again, I did get pellicles inside some of my bottles for the first batch. So anyway, to answer your question, I wouldn't expect a lot of krausen volume (especially if you follow instructions and don't aerate the wort at pitching).

 

[gometz]

I got a decently sized thick krausen on my second batch.

 

[Oophaga]

Took a sample at just over a month in the fermentor. I did not aerate as I am completely aging in plastic for 2 to three months. It went from 1.070-1.014 without a starter or aeration. It has a extremely mild funk, as expected at this point, and a nice tartness already. It is extremely oud bruin like already and this is super early. I am thinking of adding some plums or dried currants to half, but undecided at this point. Super impressed with this blend, it should be a year round. Super flavorful. I took the gravity of a brett saison which tasted fantastic, until I tasted the de bom. It just seemed so flavorless after the de bom beer. Although totally different beers.

 

[nofootbreak]

Don't have my notes nearby, but my gravity dropped from about 1.038 to 1.008 as of Friday. Should be within a few days of the two month mark.

The sample was fairly lactic, a little bit fruity and some citrus character, but with a slightly unpleasant phenolic Brett character.

Hoping that will change after packaging. Reminds me of Brett l. And the smokey/horse phenols it can produce.

Debating whether or not I'll repitch this. If i was getting fruitier Brett character, i wouldn't hesitate.

Anybody else pick up similar phenolics?

 

[youreanimpulse]

In my Berliner I've had some phenolics I'd call "plasticky" which I think may be from a slight under pitch. Nothing horsey. It's still going to bulk age for a bit so I'll report back.

 

[ChugachBrewing]

I've got a "bom" going in a hopppier beer (35IBU). A local brewpub pulled off 10G of their brewday's wort and let me ferment it with de bom for a Pro-Am in a month. I know, I know, the hops won't help anything at all. It's just an experiment (we have a backup beer if this one sucks). Been holding it at 80-85 the whole time. Haven't tasted. Hesitant to add O2, so just going to let it ride. Anyone have a "bom" that is bottled and finalized?

 

[youreanimpulse]

My Oud Bruin with De Bom is done, but I very slightly over oaked it so I'm letting it age a bit. Already better after a few weeks in bottles. Taste is quite sour but not much else going on at this point. I'm being patient. Sometime soon I'll be able to bottle my Berliner, which was very good at the last sample. Seems more suited to the blend style-wise.

 

[hirschb]

Anyone have a "bom" that is bottled and finalized?

Yep, this is great stuff. Some friends at brew club were stunned that I got such sour/funky flavors in ~ 3 months. I overhopped the wort a tad bit, but as the hop bitterness is gradually fading, the more subtle flavors are coming out (I used a very simple grist).

 

[ChugachBrewing]

Yep, this is great stuff. Some friends at brew club were stunned that I got such sour/funky flavors in ~ 3 months. I overhopped the wort a tad bit, but as the hop bitterness is gradually fading, the more subtle flavors are coming out (I used a very simple grist).

glad to hear. I'll be finishing mine up in less than 2 mo due to time constraints.

 

[gometz]

Bottled my first (over-hopped) batch, it tasted alright, but not really sour. Batch two I just took a sample and while it has a nice sour taste, it is very funky.

 

[Oophaga]

Anyone fermenting 100% in plastic for the full 2 months? I was planning on it but a little wary of acetic acid production being high.

 

[joshrosborne]

Anyone fermenting 100% in plastic for the full 2 months? I was planning on it but a little wary of acetic acid production being high.

By plastic, do you mean a bucket or a Better Bottle? You won't have an issue with oxidation if you use a Better Bottle; they're all I used for sours that always go longer than a year. You might have a problem with a bucket, though.