Wyeast 3203 - PC de Bom Sour Blend impressions

[jwil123]

whats everyone think of using de bom for a berliner weiss?i know it doesn't recommend it just curious

 

[BzurkoBrews]

whats everyone think of using de bom for a berliner weiss?i know it doesn't recommend it just curious

That's what I'm doing. Well it's Berliner weisse esque. But it's in spirit of a Berliner weisse.


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[Oophaga]

I think the best option for a berliner is to jump on the Lactobacillus brevis while you can. That sounds perfect for kettle souring and then followed by either clean sach or a blend of sacch and brett. I think something like trois would be great in a berliner with some fruit, it will work a lot faster since you really don't get much benefit in a berliner from extended aging. If you desire to use de bom that way go ahead of course, but I do believe since the brevis its a neat option normally not available.

 

[youreanimpulse]

My take is that De Bom is a mixture of Lacto Brevis and an unknown sacc/Brett combo. So it could be a good set it and (mostly) forget it option for a Berliner. My batch is so far afield of a Berliner in grain bill that I'm not sure I can comment on flavor profile, but it's a nice clean sour so far. I'm tempted to try saving some for a future Berliner, though I know it will not be the same proportions in a second generation.

 

[youreanimpulse]

I took the bait. I transferred the Oud Bruin into secondary and saved the cake. Brewing a Berliner with triticale instead of wheat today. Adding 1/4 cake worth of slurry and putting it back in the closet. We'll see how she does on the second generation.

 

[dougdecinces]

I get to try this for the first time. Yesterday I brewed 4.5 gallons of a Belgian-inspired pumpkin ale and racked it from my kettle to a bucket. I pitched one smack pack and I am going to let it sit 48 hours. Then I will see if it is as sour as I want, or if I want to let it go a little longer. I have some American oak soaking in 12 year old rum that I may add in secondary. It'll be a longshot to have this done by Halloween, but I can probably have it done by Thanksgiving.

 

[TrickyDick]

Tasted my two beers today. They are still in the primary and one week old. I made my first "micro-oxygenation" dose today. I used my oxygenation wand, which is rather old now and I think I bought from William's Brewing about 5 years ago. I have a medical E-tank I use for Oxygen now, since its cheaper and more reliable than the home depot crap. I have a pediatric regulator I set it to 2 L/min and let it run for 15 seconds in each. I rinsed the wand and soaked a few minutes in star san in between. I didn't let it dry fully (which by the way, is what has the most potent killing effect).

Now on to the tastings. I drew up a small sample of each beer. Each was chilled to about 85 degrees on brew day before pitching, without oxygenation, as per the recommendations. After a few days, the temp fell to about 78 degrees or so. The ambient temp in the room is about 75 degrees, though the fermenters are sitting close to the door, where the temps are slightly warmer. I have those temp indicator stickers on the fermenters. They show 78 degrees after a week.

The Oud Bruin I tasted first. I left my gravity readings in the basement. It was well attenuated, more than 70%, but significantly less than the De Bom, which was about 80%. I can furnish the actual numbers when its all said and done. I did not measure pH. Tasted the samples and noted that the Oud Bruin, was minimally funky, and barely sour at all. It had, from memory, an OG of 1.056. The De Bomb beer, had an OG of 1.065. It was noticeable sour, I'd say moderately puckering with minimal funk. I am adding some oak tonight and will taste again in two days. I am very impressed with the de Bom and not as much with the Oud Bruin, though I am not an expert on the style, and want simply some sour homebrew. I'll report back later.

TD

 

[bryreeves]

What is in De Bom besides fast-acting Lacto? Has this been released? Is it giving any funk to the beer at all?

 

[Arrheinous]

I'm using de Bom now on a 1.04 lambic. Should have read more but it sat for 48 hours at 75F, then I ramped 2F/day to 85F and I'll drop it back to 80F over two weeks.

Dregs of Geuze Boon and Reinaert Wild Ale were added on the first day.

We'll see what the upper part of the temp range does for it.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Are you worried about the possible pedio in the gueuze? That may make it more of a long haul I would think...

 

[Arrheinous]

I didn't think of that. My concern was that the de Bom would get lactic in the two months but not have too much funk or complexity. If the pedio/diacetyl are too much then it will have to sit.

 

[dougdecinces]

Sadly I don't have an oxygen stone and I am going to be ready to start dosing my batch soon. Has anyone tried just agitating the wort with a mash paddle? If so, how long did you do it and were you happy with the results?

 

[osito]

Brewed a dark base for this yeast a month ago loosely based on a Flander's red grist. Mashed at 156 for an hour and sparged hot, OG was 1.059. Pitched 2 packs of De Bom at 80F into unaerated wort, set to a temp controlled heat belt at 80 and let it sit for primary fermentation. I was a bit worried at first since there was no krausen at all during the first week -- there was a decent amount of airlock activity for the first 3-4 days though. After the first week the gravity dropped to 1.012, taste was grainy and sweet and no perceivable sourness. I set the temp to 85F and let sit for 2 weeks without checking on it. This is what it looked like after checking on it:

pretty spooky

I added a small pitch of B. Lambicus for cherry aromatics and swirled the fermenter a bit to get some oxygen. Kinda wary of putting in pure O2 with my wand -- might take a sample in the next week or so to check gravity and sourness, if it's not so sour I'll put some O2 in and update the thread.

 

[TrickyDick]

I tasted mine at 48 hours after dosing with oxygen. I cannot detect any difference in flavor. Per the recommendations, I doses with another 15 seconds of oxygen. FWIW, WHen using my oxygen meter, I have found it takes considerably longer to achieve the desired oxygen levels when running the oxygen for one minute. I wonder also if the size of the batch has a significant influence. At any rate I'll check again Sunday night to see if there is any change. The Oud Bruin I'm really getting very very little if any funk or sour from, but the De Bomb is really very very nice for such a young beer just barely ten days old.

TD

 

[Rounding_error]

A couple folks mentioned reusing their De Bom cakes.

I am planning to re-pitch mine in addition to a Wyeast 5335 (L. Buchneri) and possibly using it for blending stock, anyone else come up with ideas for the second generation?

 

[TrickyDick]

A couple folks mentioned reusing their De Bom cakes.

I am planning to re-pitch mine in addition to a Wyeast 5335 (L. Buchneri) and possibly using it for blending stock, anyone else come up with ideas for the second generation?

I read somewhere in a blog by a well known brewmaster of a major sour barrel aged beer brewery that they maintain a master culture of their bug blend including yeast and bacteria. They feed it periodically. When they get a batch that comes out a little bit sour indicating that the bacteria are gaining an advantage, what they do is feed it some hopped wort to their master culture to inhibit the bacteria and bring the ratio of bacteria to yeast back in line. This is similar to maintaining a sourdough culture for baking, except that you would employ feedings of flour, and when the culture got too acidic and bacterial, you would conduct a "washing" taking a small amount of the main culture and dump the rest, then hold that at a temp that favors reproduction of the yeast. You might need to repeat this procedure if really neglected. Best thing to do with sourdough is to use and feed regularly.

Personally I'd consider pitching rates of the yeast cake into a new beer as per mr malty recommendations, and see how it turns out - if overly sour, brew a hoppy beer with that second yeast cake to inhibit the bacteria for a third generation.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Gave it another blast of oxygen, with no changes in flavor after another 48 hours. This was the third dose.

It seems wrong to be doing this #againstallinstincts

TD


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[youreanimpulse]

Berliner on second gen De Bom at 8 days is already nicely tart and refreshing. I'm going for sour (possibly to serve with syrup) on this one so I'll keep checking weekly. Oh, and it's at SG 1.000 from 1.031, first time checking on it. Planning on bottling it's father/mother(?), the Oud Bruin, in about two weeks, right at the 8 week mark.

 

[dougdecinces]

I didn't think of that. My concern was that the de Bom would get lactic in the two months but not have too much funk or complexity. If the pedio/diacetyl are too much then it will have to sit.

You could always try dosing it with a brett culture in each bottle or in the keg. That would speed up the brett development significantly.

 

[dougdecinces]

Here is mine after a week in primary. I got airlock activity within 18 hours, but it died down within 3 days. I didn't take a gravity reading, but it tastes like it's at or near terminal gravity. It's not as sour as expected, but it's got a nice lactic twang that blends well with the base beer (which tastes just like pumpkin pie). I gently shook the fermenter for about 20 seconds with the lid off. I plan on repeating the process on Saturday.

 

[deuce13coop]

I brewed a standard 50/50 pils/wheat grist with a little carapils and some c-120 for a little color. Pitched 1 smack pack into a 6 gal vol, no aeration @80F in a better bottle. Free rose to 85-87F and let sit for 3 weeks. Racked onto 2 lbs of cherries and 1 lbs of blackberries and added 1oz of Hungarian Oak cubes soaked in Pinot Noir. It had considerable sourness and some funk at transfer. I then moved it inside and it sat @75 or so. I thieved a sample last night (@7 weeks) and it is fantastic. I was nervous about the aeration so I opted not to do it and despite that it has developed a nice bit of acetic character along with what is now pretty assertive sourness. It is very "Flanders-reddish" with complex berry and red wine notes. The only downside is that I mashed hot (looking at it more as a standard long-term sour) and its not getting any lower than about 1.018(from 1.066). Its not sweet by any means but I'd have preferred to get drier. Since its still hot here and I have another pack I plan on doing a rebrew on this and mash lower to try and dry it out and maybe blend. We'll see..

Overall though I'm very impressed. I had my doubts and figured at best it would be a one dimensional clean lactic sour but it is far more complex than I could have imagined for a 2 month old sour. Perhaps the wine soaked oak and fruit helped it along but it smelled fantastic even in the smack pack. I'll try and come back after proper bottling and conditioning.

 

[Oophaga]

What temperature did you mash? I am brewing today and going for a 153 mash temp to allow sweetness to cut the sharp acid and fruiting later will make it that mark more sour.

 

[deuce13coop]

I mashed @ 157F. If I had it to do all over again I'd shoot for 152F or so.


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[Oophaga]

Thanks for the quick reply!

 

[osito]

Checked on mine, it's been a 5 weeks and gravity is down to 1.006, flavor is decently tart with a bit of cherry and dark fruit and some of that brett doughy-funky flavor. With a bit more time I think it'll be good to go -- definitely want some more acidity here.

So, question about the O2 additions. Are these solely intended to promote production of acetic acid and ethyl acetate? I could see how they could potentially add complexity to the beer but I'd rather have more acidity from lactic acid at this point.

 

[BzurkoBrews]

8 weeks ago I used de Bom in a Berliner style beer. Yesterday I measured the pH and it's only 4.19. Acidity is barely noticeable in the taste but very much so in the aroma. Doesn't seem to have any off flavors. I did not aerate mid fermentation.


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[deuce13coop]

So, question about the O2 additions. Are these solely intended to promote production of acetic acid and ethyl acetate? I could see how they could potentially add complexity to the beer but I'd rather have more acidity from lactic acid at this point.

That's what I assume. However, as I said, I opted to pass on that for fear of too much. I ended up with a nice amount of Acetic character anyway.

For those of you not getting much sourness, what was your ferment temps? Maybe cooler than the recommended 80-85F?

 

[hirschb]

Interesting info on the final gravity vs mash temp. I made an American Sour (pg 326 Tonsmeire), mashed at 154, dropped from 1.063 to 1.009. I'll likely use the same mash temp for the honey floral wheat sour from the book as well.

 

[TrickyDick]

I haven't tasted a sample of mine in over a week now. I followed directions and on day seven I dosed with 15 seconds of pure oxygen through a stone. Regulator set at 2L/min. I tasted at 48 hours and noticed no change. I did this a total of three times and then either out of laziness or fear that adding oxygen would be detrimental at this point, I just stopped checking and oxygenating. Added a total of 3x15 second oxygen bursts. Normally I'd have given regular beer 60-90 seconds worth. No noticeable changes in flavor could I detect over the three oxygen additions, waiting 48 hours after each addition.

As fas as temp, I pitched at 85° and after a week or so, temps fell to about 78°. Primary fermentation is well beyond finished for mine which is about 3 weeks old now. I do not have my notes on the SG readings, which it took using a refractometer and used correction calculations. It was below 1.010, and for some reason I want to say 1.006 but nor sure. Now I think it is between 75-78 degrees, the ambient temp.

At this point, I'm just going to let it ride and see how it turns out. For now, I think it has a great flavor, and is headed exactly where I want it to. Modestly sour, and yes, I would also like a bit more tartness, but I do not want to add any more oxygen. It's in plastic fermentation container so should get oxygen through that over time. Been thinking about adding some tart cherries.

In related news, The oud bruin I brewed on same day is in another vessel right next to this one. It is, in contrast, far less complex in flavor and acidity. So much so, that I added dregs from a bottle of jolly pumpkin to it. I used the other wyeast PC strain for oud bruin in this other beer.

TD


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[gometz]

I think I inhibited my lacto bacteria. I made the mistake thinking that only IBU matters, not total alpha acids and added a very late addition of Nelson. Has a mild sourness to it, but not tart. Not a bad flavor though.

I have another pack that I will make a golden sour with. Only 0.5 oz saaz at 60 minutes for that one.