Wort - Sweetness vs Dextrinous

[ShootsNRoots]

Mash temperatures affect the fermentability of the wort, but what is the contribution of mash ratio to that equation.

Suppose a temperature range of 147F - 158F

Fermentability:
147F - thinner beer, raises wort fermentablility (lower f.g.)
158F - thicker beer, lowers wort fermentablility (higher f.g.)

According to Palmer, mash ratio affects the sweetness/maltiness of the final beer through concentration of enzymes and sugars in the wort.

Sweetness:
1.0qt/lb - sweeter/maltier beer, lowers wort fermentability
2.0qt/lb - less sweet/less malty beer, raises wort fermentability

Choosing a mash temperature of 153F and mash ratio of 1.0qt/lb, the beer will be sweeter/maltier than @1.5qt/lb.

For each temperature there is the decision to influence the beer to the dry or malty side by using both the temperature and the mash ratio.

1.) Are there any equations relating the temperature and mash ratio to the dry/malty designations?

2.) Does any brewing software out there use this in addition to the BU:GU to determine sweetness/bitterness/mouthfeel of beer?

3.) Would a high temp, thin mash or a low temp, thick mash cancel each other out? (In other words the mash ratio cancels the effect of the mash temperature (and vice versa).)

4.) Which one takes precedence, the temperature or the mash ratio?

5.) Wouldn't it be a good idea to include the mash ratio and mash temperature in recipes? (Or is ratio just not that influential?)

6.) Would this be a contributing factor to over-attenuation?

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

 

[Yooper]

So choosing a mash temperature of 153F and mash ratio of 1.0qt/lb, the beer will be sweeter/maltier than @1.5qt/lb.

Well, not really. The differences between 1 quart/lb, 1.25 quart/lb and 1.5 quart/lb aren't really noticeable differences in my experience, or in the literature I've read.

At greater than 2 quarts/pound it's possible that differences in fermentability could be noticed, and the literature theorizes that it could be, but in practice most brewers who have done experiments haven't find the attenuation rates to follow the theory.

Mash temperature does impact the fermentability, and that is shown by my experience- but lately there are new books and papers coming out to challenge and disprove that theory as well.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

Well, not really. The differences between 1 quart/lb, 1.25 quart/lb and 1.5 quart/lb aren't really noticeable differences in my experience, or in the literature I've read.

At greater than 2 quarts/pound it's possible that differences in fermentability could be noticed, and the literature theorizes that it could be, but in practice most brewers who have done experiments haven't find the attenuation rates to follow the theory.

Mash temperature does impact the fermentability, and that is shown by my experience- but lately there are new books and papers coming out to challenge and disprove that theory as well.

What literature, new books and papers are you referring to, Yooper? I'd be interested in reading them.

 

[Yooper]

What literature, new books and papers are you referring to, Yooper? I'd be interested in reading them.

I don't have the book, and have only talked to the author briefly about this subject, but my understand is that this is a subject he tackles in "Brewing Better Beer" (Gordon Strong).

My understanding is that Gordon feels that mash temperatures are not important to attenuation rates, based on what he said to me. Like I said, I haven't read this book but at the NHC he said something to that affect as well.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

I don't have the book, and have only talked to the author briefly about this subject, but my understand is that this is a subject he tackles in "Brewing Better Beer" (Gordon Strong).

My understanding is that Gordon feels that mash temperatures are not important to attenuation rates, based on what he said to me. Like I said, I haven't read this book but at the NHC he said something to that affect as well.

Hrrrmmm.... So what factors did he say were important?

My experience tells me that temperature, mash ratio and time are important to fermentability as Palmer states. The question is to what degree each contributes in various grist make-ups and at various states and stages of the mash.

 

[Yooper]

Hrrrmmm.... So what factors did he say were important?

My experience tells me that temperature, mash ratio and time are important to fermentability as Palmer states. The question is to what degree each contributes in various grist make-ups and at various states and stages of the mash.

Oh Boy, I'm going by memory and I wasn't really paying full attention at the time so I hate to say for sure! I know that he felt that with well modified malts of today that mash temps really aren't important in fermentability but that is really all I can recall, sorry!

I'm sure there are some others who are familiar with his stance and give more details.

I have seen some information on braukaiser.com that gives reasons for the fermentability: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Enzymes

 

[ShootsNRoots]

Oh Boy, I'm going by memory and I wasn't really paying full attention at the time so I hate to say for sure! I know that he felt that with well modified malts of today that mash temps really aren't important in fermentability but that is really all I can recall, sorry!

I'm sure there are some others who are familiar with his stance and give more details.

I have seen some information on braukaiser.com that gives reasons for the fermentability: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Enzymes

While I appreciate your input, my questions on the mash ratios effect on fermentability have not been answered. The braukaiser link indicates temperature and time as two factors, but Palmer includes mash ratio. I'm looking for math relating mash ratio and fermentability.

 

[Yooper]

While I appreciate your input, my questions on the mash ratios effect on fermentability have not been answered. The braukaiser link indicates temperature and time as two factors, but Palmer includes mash ratio. I'm looking for math relating mash ratio and fermentability.

Ah. My understanding and feeling is that it's pretty immaterial.

Even the BIAB guys will go with three quarts/pound and not experience higher attenuation, but I do not have a link handy to show those results. Kai (braukaiser) has them on his site somewhere, I believe, at least with information of up to 2 quarts/pound as I've read his information on that at one time.

 

[Wynne-R]

Palmer’s book was first published in 1999. Is it surprising that we have learned things in the meanwhile? The third edition fixes a lot of problems, but the first edition is the one people use because it’s free and it’s on the internet. I’ll bet he doesn’t do that again.

‘How to Brew’ is a good resource for a beginner, but you should keep an open mind and look to more contemporary sources.

I agree with Yooper, I don’t notice any difference. If you’re going to disagree with Yooper, you need a better reason than an old book.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

Ah. My understanding and feeling is that it's pretty immaterial.

Even the BIAB guys will go with three quarts/pound and not experience higher attenuation, but I do not have a link handy to show those results. Kai (braukaiser) has them on his site somewhere, I believe, at least with information of up to 2 quarts/pound as I've read his information on that at one time.

Yes, found it.

So if mash ratio and temperature aren't currently considered important then what factors does a homebrewer have to work with in controlling the fermentability of their beer? There are only so many factors left - mash time, water, etc...

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...e_infusion_mashing#Mash_thickness_experiments

 

[ajdelange]

I'm sure the question has been studied in detail but I don't know where to send you other than the very broad suggestion that you check the brewing texts such as HBS&Y, Kunze, Narziß, Handbook of Brewing etc. and the literature (JASBC ...). I can see how temperature (and don't forget the equally important pH) have a direct and profound effect on enzymes but can't imagine that the dilution factor has nearly as much influence.

I can't recall Gordon saying anything about the effect of temperature in his book and I don't have it with me so I can't check but it would, as I noted above, seem counterintuitive that enzyme performance is not correlated with temperature. As I have said many times before I don't always agree with what Gordon says but I never ignore what he says.

 

[mabrungard]

+1 to AJ's comments regarding temperature being the primary factor followed by pH in the fermentability and character of wort. The effect of dilution is less a factor.

Yooper, are you sure that Gordon's book presents temperature effects this way?

 

[PDX_T]

In the realm of biochemistry, Michaelis-Menten kinetics are used to relate rate of reaction to substrate concentration. This, however, directly contradicts the accepted wisdom for thin vs. thick mash. Basically an enzymatic reaction is generally faster with a higher substrate concentration, up to a certain limiting point where the enzyme active site is considered saturated. The thin vs. thick mash is perhaps not a factor or due to a physical property of the mash such as thermal conductivity, surface area to volume ratio, or the solubility of starch substrates may be substantially affected by grist ratio. I echo the other posters who say they have seen no reasonable effect over short ranges of 1-1.5.

 

[TyTanium]

IME recipe matters the most. More flaked barley / crystal = higher FG.

For most homebrewers I'd expect a fair amount of multicollinearity between recipe & mash temp as predictors for FG. If you're going for body, you use flaked barley / crystal & mash high. If going for dry, no crystal & mash low. So, I'd be tempted to conclude that mashing low = lower FG, but in reality it may just be the recipe.

 

[eltorrente]

Page 32 of Gordon Strong's book, Brewing Better Beer:

"The thickness of the mash (expressed in terms of water-to-grist ratio) is more important for getting a uniform temperature distribution in the mash, facilitating stirring, and protecting enzymes than it is for increasing wort fermentability. With today's well-modified malts, mash thickness has little impact on fermentability."

"..I find 1.5 quarts per pound to be a good compromise for the homebrewer, maybe bumping it up somewhat if decocting. If I'm using limited sparging (batch sparging or no-sparge), I often use a thinner mash."

 

[Yooper]

+1 to AJ's comments regarding temperature being the primary factor followed by pH in the fermentability and character of wort. The effect of dilution is less a factor.

Yooper, are you sure that Gordon's book presents temperature effects this way?

No, I'm not sure, as I don't have the book. We were talking about his book, and I believe he verbally told me that this was covered in his book. We were talking about this subject a bit, but not really in depth so I can only give the jist of what I believe he was saying.

 

[pjj2ba]

I agree with AJ and Martin, in that of all the things we do in a mash, grain to water ratios are probably not that important with respect to starch conversion and High vs low FG.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

Can't recall where I read this, but Mash Ratio affects mash pH and mash pH affects fermentability.

(Again, probably to a negligible degree. Perhaps Martin or AJ would know.)

Ahh yes, Bru N' Water, is where I read it:

Its notable from the graphic that the various enzymes work well across a range of pH. Therefore, targeting an exact mash pH is not criticial to success. Achieving a mash pH that is within a tenth or two of the desired range can produce acceptable results. General suggestions for mashing pH targets are provided in the table below. As can be seen in the table, mashing pH has multiple impacts and the brewer can tailor the pH to enhance certain goals.

Suggested Mashing pH Targets (room-temp measurement)

Character
Target Mash pH Range​

More fermentable wort with less body
5.3 to 5.4
Less fermentable wort with more body
5.4 to 5.5
More sharpness or tartness in beer
5.1 to 5.2
Lighter-colored beers
5.3 to 5.4
Darker-colored beers
5.4 to 5.6​

4.3.14 Altering Mash Thickness. Since mash pH hinges on the relative amounts of acidity from the grist and alkalinity from the water, altering the relative amount of water in the mash can affect mash pH. In the case of mashing with a water with higher than desired alkalinity, reducing the amount of water in the mash (water/grist ratio) can have the net effect of reducing the mash pH. If the mashing water has too little alkalinity, increasing the amount of water in the mash can have the effect of increasing the mash pH.