Wort chillers

[jambop]

So here I am again picking brains
I made beer for about 20 years and never used a wort chiller I simply boiled the wort the put into the fermenter and then left it overnight to cool before adding my starter yeast. Now I never in all that time had a bad brew. So I am reading about wort chillers and one of the reasons to chill the wort is to avoid unwanted infections ???? How do you get an unwanted infection in a previously sterile medium if it is protected by a filter? Anyway I am not paying 80€ for

 

[AlexKay]

The goal of sanitation as a homebrewer is a low level of microorganisms—unless you’re autoclaving your fermenter after adding the wort, it will not be sterile. So the question is, can the yeast outcompete whatever else is already in there? With a healthy pitch of yeast soon after boiling, the answer is usually yes.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Chilling the wort quickly will help cold break and lock in the character of late hop additions. That said, I haven't sprung for a chiller either. I'm mulling the idea of making one. Not too hard if you're moderately handy.

 

[jambop]

The goal of sanitation as a homebrewer is a low level of microorganisms—unless you’re autoclaving your fermenter after adding the wort, it will not be sterile. So the question is, can the yeast outcompete whatever else is already in there? With a healthy pitch of yeast soon after boiling, the answer is usually yes.

I agree if you have treated your fermenter with sanitiser
I worked for 35 years in cell and molecular biology and when I made up a SOC medium for transformations I autoclaved it and then opened it many times before discarding it ... I very cannot ever had any problems with infections and all this work took place on an open laboratory work bench.
What I am seeking is the reason you would chill the wort other that infection ... which I think incredibly unlikely if you have any sense.
Whatever way €80 for a bit of copper pipe is highwayman levels of theft and I will not be buying one but since I have a short coil 16mm annealed copper pie lying in the work shop if there is a real reason to use one I will make one

 

[jambop]

Chilling the wort quickly will help cold break and lock in the character of late hop additions. That said, I haven't sprung for a chiller either. I'm mulling the idea of making one. Not too hard if you're moderately handy.

Read my reply few meters of annealed copper pipe €10 max

 

[MaxStout]

Even a few meters of copper tubing, when coiled, will be a big help in chilling your wort. It may not be as efficient as a commercial immersion chiller, but with cold tap water you should be able to get a typical 5 gallon (19L) batch chilled fairly quickly. Certainly better than waiting for it to cool overnight.

 

[jpakstis]

Man, you really have a bone to pick with wort chillers! Are you really picking brains or a fight?

 

[grampamark]

Chill your wort. Or not. It’s homebrewing. There are no rules. A lot of opinionated people on message boards, for sure, but nobody died and left them in charge. RDWHAHB.

 

[Jonakr]

I have one, but calculated that I was dumping 20+ gallons of tap water to cool my wort. I switched to pulling from my pool so the heat and water weren't wasted until the pool had to go. Since then, I've been doing a modified no-chill where I leave everything on the burner until the next morning, transfer to my fermenter and add yeast.

 

[hotbeer]

I chill mine because I don't want to wait that long for it to cool. I don't want to be tomorrow putting in the fermenter what I did today.

And once you get below 140-170°F I'd think there will always be the possibility of what was once sanitized and maybe sterile becoming infected. Not all of us can or will keep everything well protected. Have you seen the videos of the mess some people brew in?

So no you don't need a chiller. A chiller in no way guarantees you of sanitation and that you won't get an infection or such.

 

[jambop]

Man, you really have a bone to pick with wort chillers! Are you really picking brains or a fight?

No I am asking a question what is the advantage of having a wort chiller is it a time thing ? In honesty I doubt very much the infection thing there are so many other routes for infection... for example one assumes the starter culture is made up in a sterilised container of some so... is it not a possible source of infection. The fermenter I have is certifies to take fluids to a temperature of up to 100C ... very similar to that of the wort in the boiler I see some comfort in that. However my question is what are the positives of using a wort chiller...and chill yourself I am not looking for a fight over a question and where is any aggression in my post? Someone has come up with a valid reason ... although he still has not indulged... probably for the same reason a but of bent annealed copper tube €80... I don't have a zip up the back of my head!

 

[jambop]

I chill mine because I don't want to wait that long for it to cool. I don't want to be tomorrow putting in the fermenter what I did today.

And once you get below 140-170°F I'd think there will always be the possibility of what was once sanitized and maybe sterile becoming infected. Not all of us can or will keep everything well protected. Have you seen the videos of the mess some people brew in?

So no you don't need a chiller. A chiller in no way guarantees you of sanitation and that you won't get an infection or such.

Thank you an answer I can understand the time thing but my experience tells me that infection is not a high priority for me. Thank you for your kind reply!

Edit
For the avoidance of doubt I can understand why a commercial brewer would use one simply on the grounds that time is money... but a 5 UK gallon batch of homebrew?

 

[jambop]

I have one, but calculated that I was dumping 20+ gallons of tap water to cool my wort. I switched to pulling from my pool so the heat and water weren't wasted until the pool had to go. Since then, I've been doing a modified no-chill where I leave everything on the burner until the next morning, transfer to my fermenter and add yeast.

Thank you a very good reason not to waste water when it can depending on circumstance be a valuable commodity. We do not waste water whenever possible eg; in the summer every drop of water we use that we can is recycled and goes onto the garden. As another question come to my mind have you lost a brew because of this new system?

 

[AlexKay]

I’m not sure how much you can save making your own wort chiller. 50 feet of 3/8” OD, 0.03” wall tubing requires something like 8 pounds of copper — so the absolute floor is going to be something like $30 (here in the US) and that’s assuming the forming and rolling is essentially free (it isn’t). McMaster-Carr wants over $100 for a coil. How cheap are folks able to find it?

 

[MaxStout]

If you're buying from McMaster, you're getting screwed. 50' coils of 3/8" ID copper refrigerant tubing are around $60 at Home Depot. If you're on a budget, and don't mind taking longer to chill, you can make a decent one with 20', which is about $20.

 

[DBhomebrew]

If you're buying from McMaster, you're getting screwed. 50' coils of 3/8" ID copper refrigerant tubing are around $60 at Home Depot. If you're on a budget, and don't mind taking longer to chill, you can make a decent one with 20', which is about $20.

That was my plan, the 20'. I work in my kitchen with a 5gal kettle. The water bath takes it down to 100° pretty quick. It's the rest of the way I'd like help with.

 

[DBhomebrew]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/diy-cost-effective-immersion-wort-chiller.678466/

 

[grampamark]

If you're buying from McMaster, you're getting screwed. 50' coils of 3/8" ID copper refrigerant tubing are around $60 at Home Depot. If you're on a budget, and don't mind taking longer to chill, you can make a decent one with 20', which is about $20.

I was going to build an IC a few years ago, when I started brewing at our city house. I priced the necessary components from the usual suspects and ended up buying a ready-to-use chiller from the LHBS. It cost $50 which was only about $5 more than the DIY route.

 

[MaxStout]

I was going to build an IC a few years ago, when I started brewing at our city house. I priced the necessary components from the usual suspects and ended up buying a ready-to-use chiller from the LHBS. It cost $50 which was only about $5 more than the DIY route.

Sometimes, they show up on Craigslist for a bargain, even less than what the parts cost.

 

[davidabcd]

chill the wort is to avoid unwanted infections ???? How do you get an unwanted infection in a previously sterile medium if it is protected by a filter? Anyway I am not paying 80€ for

I only worked in restaurants, no science background. The rule was get the product out of the danger zone, where micro organisms can grow, ASAP.
I'm not sure what the filter is you mention?
My anecdote about why I do it is that I'd eat burgers or hotdogs that were left out overnight early the next morning for breakfast. Did that for years and never got sick once. It doesn't mean it was a good idea.
The no-chill cube where you put the hot wort in and squeeze out the air seems to be a great way of avoiding problems. It's almost like canning.

 

[AlexKay]

I had a simple "I could make this myself" wort chiller that I just upgraded with a Jaded chiller. The one-to-many brazing they're doing is beyond my abilities, and while there's a premium over the materials cost, it's not exorbitant: 50% mark-up over raw materials, say. Happy to spend it for a well-designed product.

 

[corkybstewart]

When I finish boiling an IPA I add a large dose of hops into the kettle. I don't want those hops adding flavor all night, I want them being heated for 15 minutes so I use my wort chiller. You may not use late hop additions so this would not make any difference to you. Another issue is the time-before I retired I had brewDAY, not brewDAYS. I couldn't wait until the next day to add yeast, I may already be traveling. When I brew lagers I can't wait a week for them to get to14C before pitching yeast, I need the wort cold now. As has been said before use one or don't it's up to you. But don't tell us our answers are irrelevant to your situation because we don't know your situation.

 

[jambop]

I’m not sure how much you can save making your own wort chiller. 50 feet of 3/8” OD, 0.03” wall tubing requires something like 8 pounds of copper — so the absolute floor is going to be something like $30 (here in the US) and that’s assuming the forming and rolling is essentially free (it isn’t). McMaster-Carr wants over $100 for a coil. How cheap are folks able to find it?

Well I am not looking for a fight But why would you need 50 ft of copper tube to chill a 25 -35 L batch of beer? I have the remains, perhaps 5-6m, of a 50m roll of 16mm od annealed copper tube which coiled will give 5 coils and connection tails that will easily cool off 25L of wort at 100C but more than that I can buy a 5m roll of 10mm annealed copper tube for 25€ .

What I want to know is that for the very base brewer is there really an appreciable reason to spend money on a wort cooler? I do not know how much you pay for malt and hops but I can make a hell of a lot of beer for €80 that is the cheapest one I could find.
However that is not what I am seeking I am asking the question is this chiller really an addition that will make a small volume beer brewers beer more drinkable? In an blind testing would I know the difference? I read on my suppliers website that the reason to have one was to chill the wort quickly and reduce the chance of infection... I do not go along with that at all. I understand why big brewers use them time is money and the sooner you get another brew on the better!
There is absolutely no correlation with a homebrewers needs in that respect.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Improved cold break, hence better clarity into the fermenter and maybe the glass. That's mostly a visual thing. Time, finings, and cold crashing all will help in this regard if crystal clear beer is important to you.

Locking in the character of late additions. With no chill, a flameout (0m) addition ends up acting like a 20+m addition. That adds IBUs to your recipe and reduces flavor/aroma.

Time. It's a resource. I've got two kids under 4 and my wife only has so much patience as far as my brewing goes.

 

[jambop]

I

When I finish boiling an IPA I add a large dose of hops into the kettle. I don't want those hops adding flavor all night, I want them being heated for 15 minutes so I use my wort chiller. You may not use late hop additions so this would not make any difference to you. Another issue is the time-before I retired I had brewDAY, not brewDAYS. I couldn't wait until the next day to add yeast, I may already be traveling. When I brew lagers I can't wait a week for them to get to14C before pitching yeast, I need the wort cold now. As has been said before use one or don't it's up to you. But don't tell us our answers are irrelevant to your situation because we don't know your situation.

Thanks for the reply
You have nailed it ... time! As for hops I would be using some form of container so they would be removed at the appropriate time. For myself I have lots of time thus the query about what a chiller does other than save time because I do not go with the stopping infection reason. I am not an experience brewer but I am an experienced scientist... which believe it or not involved one hell of a lot of brewing ... just not beer

For the record here, one of the reasons I have asked this question is as much about water conservation than anything else. The chiller I saw took 20 mins to cool the wort... who the hell leaves a tap running for 20mins for god sakes? If someone can really tell my beer will be better I will make and use one but it would have to be recirculated water no way do I waste a commodity some are dying for the want of.

 

[MaxStout]

Well I am not looking for a fight But why would you need 50 ft of copper tube to chill a 25 -35 L batch of beer? I have the remains, perhaps 5-6m, of a 50m roll of 16mm od annealed copper tube which coiled will give 5 coils and connection tails that will easily cool off 25L of wort at 100C but more than that I can buy a 5m roll of 10mm annealed copper tube for 25€ .

What I want to know is that for the very base brewer is there really an appreciable reason to spend money on a wort cooler? I do not know how much you pay for malt and hops but I can make a hell of a lot of beer for €80 that is the cheapest one I could find.
However that is not what I am seeking I am asking the question is this chiller really an addition that will make a small volume beer brewers beer more drinkable? In an blind testing would I know the difference? I read on my suppliers website that the reason to have one was to chill the wort quickly and reduce the chance of infection... I do not go along with that at all. I understand why big brewers use them time is money and the sooner you get another brew on the better!
There is absolutely no correlation with a homebrewers needs in that respect.

I think you had made up your mind from the very start to go without chilling, and that's great. No one here is picking a fight. If you're making good beer that way, why mess with it?

Many of us here choose to chill--either by use of immersion, counterflow or plate chillers. We do this not just to mitigate infection risks, but to remove cold break, limit oxidation, and....to save time. I chill because my time is at a premium. I enjoy brewing, but nevertheless, after four hours brewing and another hour cleaning up, the last thing I want to mess with is extending this operation into the next day.

I save my chiller output water in buckets to water trees and shrubs in my yard. In winter, it goes into the washing machine. I don't waste my water.

 

[DBhomebrew]

As for hops I would be using some form of container so they would be removed at the appropriate time.

You'll remove the plant matter, but the oils and such are still in the wort breaking down. Delicate aroma and flavor will continue toward bitter as long as it's above ~180F.

Again, this may or may not be important to you. I use a water bath and get the beer I want, but I (and my wife) do wish it happened faster.

 

[MaxStout]

For those interested in no-chill, here is an extensive thread on the subject.

You do need to tweak your hops timing. I found this helpful chart that may provide a rough guideline.

 

[jambop]

I think you had made up your mind from the very start to go without chilling, and that's great. No one here is picking a fight. If you're making good beer that way, why mess with it?

Many of us here choose to chill--either by use of immersion, counterflow or plate chillers. We do this not just to mitigate infection risks, but to remove cold break, limit oxidation, and....to save time. I chill because my time is at a premium. I enjoy brewing, but nevertheless, after four hours brewing and another hour cleaning up, the last thing I want to mess with is extending this operation into the next day.

I save my chiller output water in buckets to water trees and shrubs in my yard. In winter, it goes into the washing machine. I don't waste my water.

For the record I am just returning to homebrewing which I last did probably 25 or so years back ... I cannot remember anybody using such a thing then. The reason I read for using one was to prevent infection as I have said I just do not go with that at all. My fermenting bin will take the wort straight from the kettle immediately post boil then lid on where is the infection risk really? Not the realms of fiction I have had four or more yeast cultures in an unsterilized laboratory incubator shaker with nothing more than a cotton wool bung and a bit of baco foil for a stopper ...never a cross contamination ever!

 

[DBhomebrew]

In addition to the reduced risk of infection, three other reasons have been given. Homebrewing has changed quite a bit in 25 years.

Circles and dead horses come to mind.

 

[jambop]

In addition to the reduced risk of infection, three other reasons have been given. Homebrewing has changed quite a bit in 25 years.

Circles and dead horses come to mind.

Yes you are of course correct , it is the new drinkable HiFi

 

[jambop]

For those interested in no-chill, here is an extensive thread on the subject.

You do need to tweak your hops timing. I found this helpful chart that may provide a rough guideline.
View attachment 754363

I have to assume that the hops in these brews are free and not in a filtered container of some sort?

 

[MaxStout]

I have to assume that the hops in these brews are free and not in a filtered container of some sort?

They didn't specify, but I would think that if the hops are exposed to hot wort, whether free or within some container (e.g., hops bag), that the hops alpha acids will continue to be isomerized and thus, add to bittering. The utilization factor may be somewhat lower for the hops in the container, but isomerization will nonetheless continue until the wort cools to below around 170-180F.

 

[bracconiere]

Improved cold break, hence better clarity into the fermenter and maybe the glass.

that's what i always thought....and i'm always eager to get the yeast pitched so i can see fermentation in the morning after brew day...

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, it makes more sense to use a wort chiller than to NOT use one. I can get my batches down from 195F (post whirlpool) to pitch temperature (or about 60F) in a handful of minutes. No waiting overnight crap. No dealing with a HOT fermenter while moving it. No other worries around anything related to how long before the temperature is at a safe level for the yeast.

I went from chilling the batch in the kitchen sink, to an immersion chiller, to using a plate chiller. To date, the plate chiller has the fastest chill time. About 5-7 minutes to chill my 8-10 gallons of wort going into the conical. No dealing with putting a chill coil into the kettle, or anything like that. I can't imagine NOT using a wort chiller at this point.

My first IC was pretty cheap. Ugly, but cheap. I tried to make a larger one, but that was simply an epic failure (coil was a mess and didn't do any better than the first one even with going from 25' of copper to 50' of copper tubing). I'm getting ready to get a new plate chiller that has more than double the surface area to it than my current one. I can only imagine how fast I'll get the chilled wort into fermenter with that (for my current batch sizes).

With the OP being somewhere in Europe, I have no idea what's available for purchase. I expect the low max spend expressed in the opening post will be more of a limiting factor than anything else.

I look at the hardware I'm either using, or looking at, with the same mind as many other things I purchase. Good, fast, or cheap, pick two. If it's good and fast, it won't be cheap. If it's good and cheap, it won't be fast. I look for efficiencies where it makes sense. A wort chiller is a win in my book.

 

[jambop]

Hi people thank you all for the comments and reasoning behind wort chilling. The consensus is quite clear wort chillers are a benefit to the process so I will definitely be using one in my brewing... once I have made it

 

[corkybstewart]

Hi people thank you all for the comments and reasoning behind wort chilling. The consensus is quite clear wort chillers are a benefit to the process so I will definitely be using one in my brewing... once I have made it

Unfortunately copper prices are outrageously high now and this won't get any better. I live next door to a massive copper mine and the local administrators tell me that with all the electric vehicles coming on to the market the demand for copper is outstripping the supply. You should have built it 5 years ago.

 

[jambop]

Unfortunately copper prices are outrageously high now and this won't get any better. I live next door to a massive copper mine and the local administrators tell me that with all the electric vehicles coming on to the market the demand for copper is outstripping the supply. You should have built it 5 years ago.

I won't lie to you I am a Scot living in France in retirement and am comfortable but being a Scot I can see a rip off and €80 for a bit of coiled 10mm annealed copper tube is a rip off . I can buy a 5m (approx 17ft) roll together with the correct connectors for €30 from my local DIY store coil it round a pot of the correct diameter and the job is done.

In other news after careful consideration I am just going headlong into an all in one system, life is too short and I can buy one that gets favourable reviews for €370 It is a Brewster Beacon 40L I have seen others that are within 20 to 30 € of this one but in honesty... I think they are exactly the same thing with a different name transfer ??
edit
My first lot of beer is going to be very expensive but gets progressively cheaper there after and being a Scot I like that However just to set the record straight we Scots are not really as mean as made out... we are just careful with our money

 

[corkybstewart]

Where are you in France? I'm outside of Chinon for a couple more weeks.

 

[Beermeister32]

With or without, you will have beer.

Benefits are:

1. Locks in beer profile better. For example, DMS production still occurs in warm wort for a while after boiling.

2. Hop utilization changes, for example your flavor hop additions may become bittering hops if wort is kept hot. So it changes the flavor profile a bit.

3. Speeds up the time from boiling to finishing up and pitching yeast. Also you can clean up all equipment the same day.

4. Cools it sufficiently to get it safely in a carboy or bucket. Remember plastics can leach chemicals at elevated temperatures.

5. Puts you in the safe zone to reduce possibility of microbes spoiling a beer. You want the yeast in control of the wort, not unwanted microbes. Getting it down to pitching temperatures closes the infection window.

6. Helps produce cold break material out of the wort which can produce off flavors during fermentation. You can separate much of this from the wort at time of transfer for better tasting beers.

7. Water can be run off to a plant bed for watering purposes without waste.

Prost!