Fast solution for using IC pre-chiller for 5 gallons lager?

[Gadjobrinus]

Naive of me as I'm brewing tomorrow, first lager in 20 years, and realizing I've not made proper provision for getting wort ideally down to 45 or so. In Wisconsin and our water is cold, but even so, with just one IC, it might take 25 minutes to get to 63, my usual ale pitching temp. I've rigged up a pre-chiller IC but both are only 3/8" x 25', so I'm thinking I'm screwed. I'd go to Home Depot tonight and get a submersible if I thought it would do any good.

The only thing I can think of to do is get the wort to 60F as quickly as possible and maybe transfer it to the glass carboy and immerse the carboy itself in an ice bath, stirring the wort until at the right temp with some sort of boil/sanitized stainless stirring rod; or, put the (sealed) carboy in the fermentation fridge which is currently at 36F, as I've crashed the starter yeast. But I haven't done that since the earliest days (90's), when I simply placed the extract-based, diluted wort outside to cool. My skin crawls at the thought.

Thoughts?

 

[MaxStout]

Have you measured the temp of your tap water? I'm in MN, similar climate, and my water is upper 40s now. I brewed 2 lagers last month and was able to get the wort to around 57 in about 20 minutes with an IC.

What yeast are you pitching? Could you get the wort at least down to the upper end of the yeast's temp range? Then you could cool the FV after that and be on target in an hour or two.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

All I've got is that glass is a terrible heat conductor, so I'd say keep it in the boil kettle, which should shed heat quicker.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Have you measured the temp of your tap water? I'm in MN, similar climate, and my water is upper 40s now. I brewed 2 lagers last month and was able to get the wort to around 57 in about 20 minutes with an IC.

What yeast are you pitching? Could you get the wort at least down to the upper end of the yeast's temp range? Then you could cool the FV after that and be on target in an hour or two.

We're coming out at about 50 right now, might be a touch lower in the morning. The yeast is 2206, but I've always been loathe to pitch at the upper range, especially with a lager yeast. I was wondering, if I could get it down to just below 60, about putting it the cooler at 36 until at 43, where I wanted to pitch. I've seen some guys do this but either oxygenate and pitch at say 57, then drop down, or drop down, then transfer to another fermenter, then oxygenate and pitch.

Not sure on the need to xfer to another fermenter as any cold break already happened with the IC. How about getting it to 60ish, put it in the (36F) fridge to 43, whenever that is, oxygenate and pitch and allow to free rise at setpoint 48 (fridge heats up really quickly if I leave the door open, with the inkbird/fridge off cooling)?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

All I've got is that glass is a terrible heat conductor, so I'd say keep it in the boil kettle, which should shed heat quicker.

Thanks. Bummer is that the kettle is 10 gallons and I don't have anything big enough to deal with that, even the fermentation fridge.

 

[wepeeler]

Seeing as you're strained for time, if you can get it to low 60s, pitch and then throw in ferm chamber. Since you crashed the starter, the yeast will be in lag phase anyway for the time it takes to get your wort to the 50s in the ferm chamber.

In the future, when using an IC, you can fill a cooler with ice water and a pond pump to recirculate. It'll get the wort to 50 very quickly.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Seeing as you're strained for time, if you can get it to low 60s, pitch and then throw in ferm chamber. Since you crashed the starter, the yeast will be in lag phase anyway for the time it takes to get your wort to the 50s in the ferm chamber.

In the future, when using an IC, you can fill a cooler with ice water and a pond pump to recirculate. It'll get the wort to 50 very quickly.

Interesting, hadn't thought of that, thanks. I have to work Thursday but am free Friday. the yeast has been crashing since last night only - maybe a couple days at 36F, get what I need to do the recirc properly, is better than rushing it to get it on tomorrow, at the higher temp (even if just a couple hours)?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

By the way, not sure of head needs, etc., on a submersible. Any of these? Or these? Hopefully cheapest will do?

 

[MaxStout]

I'll echo what @wepeeler said. I think it would be better to chill as far down as you can, maybe 60 or perhaps eke out another degree or 2. Then pitch and chill. Putting unpitched wort in the fridge, trying to drop to 43 would be more risky.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I'll echo what @wepeeler said. I think it would be better to chill as far down as you can, maybe 60 or perhaps eke out another degree or 2. Then pitch and chill. Putting unpitched wort in the fridge, trying to drop to 43 would be more risky.

OK, gotcha, thanks. The window for infection beats any issue with elevated (short-term) temp. Or - Friday, with a pump....?

I feel like such a freaking amateur. And I used to work for goose island. My damn brain.

 

[MaxStout]

In the future, the recirc idea with pump and ice water may be a good plan.

Alternatively, if you have a 2nd IC (doesn't have to be a big one), set that up as a pre-chiller in line upstream from your main wort chiller. Chill the wort normally, and when it's not dropping much temp anymore, dunk the pre-chiller in a bucket of ice water. I've been able to get another 10 or so degrees that way.

 

[wepeeler]

Interesting, hadn't thought of that, thanks. I have to work Thursday but am free Friday. the yeast has been crashing since last night only - maybe a couple days at 36F, get what I need to do the recirc properly, is better than rushing it to get it on tomorrow, at the higher temp (even if just a couple hours)?

I did that for Summer time. Works GREAT!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

In the future, the recirc idea with pump and ice water make be a good plan.

Alternstively, if you have a 2nd IC (doesn't have to be a big one), set that up as a pre-chiller in line upstream from your main wort chiller. Chill the wort normally, and when it's not dropping much temp anymore, set the pre-chiller in a bucket of ice water. I've been able to get another 10 or so degrees that way.

That second one is what I rigged now - two IC's linked up. Planned to put the first one in an ice bath, after getting down to 60 or so, and praying. I read this thread, and realized....I'm an idiot for not planning better. But maybe it's the best I have right now?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Slightly ghetto idea...

Chill normally with tap water to get to 60F or so. Then, to get colder than your tap will go, fill a bucket with ice and water, and use the bucket's tap (or siphon) into your immersion chiller. Just need some planet-earth gravity to power it.

(My kitchen sink has some ridiculous faucet to which nothing can possibly be attached, so my usual cooling works just like this, tho I don't bother with the ice)

 

[MaxStout]

I feel like such a freaking amateur. And I used to work for goose island. My damn brain.

Nah, you're thinking of all the right things. Just a matter of finding what works best.

Your brew will do fine tomorrow.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I really appreciate the quick help, guys. I think for this time, since I've already got it rigged up and my ability to get to HD is questionable, I'll just go with the two IC's linked up as Max mentioned - just run them with our 50ish tap water until reaching 58-60, then immerse the first IC in an ice bath. I'll be dancing - stirring the wort while raising and lowering the 1st IC, hoping to squeeze it down as low as I can. Then O2, pitch, and hope.

Next time, better plan. Thanks again. Have a good night.

 

[sdbbp]

Newbie with no lager experience, but is this really a big deal? Nobody just chills to tap water temp, then places in the chamber to reach pitch temperature (say, overnight)?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Newbie with no lager experience, but is this really a big deal? Nobody just chills to tap water temp, then places in the chamber to reach pitch temperature (say, overnight)?

You risk early exposure to unwanted species infecting the wort. Best practice, is get a vigorous and hungry yeast population going to town as soon as possible, hopefully in a clean and sanitary environment.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I'm an idiot for not planning better.

No, you're not an idiot.

You're learning your rig. Learning your rig is the part of brewing that sets you apart from everyone else. Some of us learn, some throw money at the problem, some blame things.

You're thinking and learning. You're on the right track!

 

[sdbbp]

You risk early exposure to unwanted species infecting the wort. Best practice, is get a vigorous and hungry yeast population going to town as soon as possible, hopefully in a clean and sanitary environment.

Thanks, that shorter is better is clear. But using my FC for the sub-tap chill to pitch temperature can mean a large difference in effort or equipment expense.

Looking in HtB (Palmer), the danger zone is 90-140F and he says he cools to 85F before chilling overnight and pitching in the morning.

While faster is better, I'm hoping that will be good enough for me to relax

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks, that shorter is better is clear. But using my FC for the sub-tap chill to pitch temperature can mean a large difference in effort or equipment expense.

Looking in HtB (Palmer), the danger zone is 90-140F and he says he cools to 85F before chilling overnight and pitching in the morning.

While faster is better, I'm hoping that will be good enough for me to relax

I hear you. It's all about managing risk. That "danger zone" is a standard thing from food practice (I was a chef), but it's important to realize it's not an either-or thing...meaning, below 90, activity slows but it doesn't just stop. So, in the absence of good species (culture yeast) outcompeting and dominating infectious species, the risk of an unpitched wort is there.

I should say, when I started back in the 90's, this is exactly what I did. Boiled up extract and poured in on top of (non-sterile) water into a carboy, and let ambient temps cool the wort to pitching temps - hours. I don't recall ever losing a batch and made great beer. So, if you follow clean practice and rigorous sanitation, well, I'd say,

-but then, I was never very good at that.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Newbie with no lager experience, but is this really a big deal? Nobody just chills to tap water temp, then places in the chamber to reach pitch temperature (say, overnight)?

I live in DC and I have built my boil kettle to have a whirlpool capability.

As such, my winter water is reliably in the low 40s. With the aid of my whirlpool fitting my immersion chiller can easily hit lager pitching temps, 46-50F, very quickly. The cool tap water is helpful, but the fact that the whirlpool is breaking up pockets of hot wort is the critical thing.

In the late Spring and Fall, I find it necessary to use the methods mentioned above. A cheap immersion pump and a bucket filled with a 5-10lb sack of ice will chill to lager pitching temperatures rapidly.

In July and August I keep my shower knob turned all the way to the left. My ground water is typically 85F, there is no cool water available in DC. Nevertheless, a 10lb sack of ice can get the job done within 30mins.

The key is the whirlpool fitting. It's cheap and easy to do. You can do it!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I live in DC and I have built my boil kettle to have a whirlpool capability.

As such, my winter water is reliably in the low 40s. With the aid of my whirlpool fitting my immersion chiller can easily hit lager pitching temps, 46-50F, very quickly. The cool tap water is helpful, but the fact that the whirlpool is breaking up pockets of hot wort is the critical thing.

In the late Spring and Fall, I find it necessary to use the methods mentioned above. A cheap immersion pump and a bucket filled with a 5-10lb sack of ice will chill to lager pitching temperatures rapidly.

In July and August I keep my shower knob turned all the way to the left. My ground water is typically 85F, there is no cool water available in DC. Nevertheless, a 10lb sack of ice can get the job done within 30mins.

The key is the whirlpool fitting. It's cheap and easy to do. You can do it!

Excellent, thanks Bramling. Is it a high port, some kind of tangential flow?

I'm just using one of our old 10 gallon stockpots, no fittings. Probably time for me to get at least one dedicated vessel. Right about now I miss....

 

[whoaru99]

Seeing as you're strained for time, if you can get it to low 60s, pitch and then throw in ferm chamber. Since you crashed the starter, the yeast will be in lag phase anyway for the time it takes to get your wort to the 50s in the ferm chamber.

That's what I did when I brewed up a batch of maibock about a month ago. Chilled to 60f with IC, pitched cold crashed oyl-111 starter, then cooled to 50f in FC.

 

[rallenhall]

I used to do the Australian no-chill thing in the winter. Hot wort into a sanitized, tightly sealed jerry can and left on the deck overnight. Of course, you don't have control of the weather and the ultimate temperature of the wort, but I never had an infection and extended settling time + temp produced the clearest wort I've ever had. That said, I went to a plate chiller a few years ago and with winter water temps I have no problem hitting 50's in very short order.

 

[hotbeer]

I'll just go with the two IC's linked up as Max mentioned - just run them with our 50ish tap water until reaching 58-60, then immerse the first IC in an ice bath.

Well let us know how that goes. I tried that once and it wasn't much better than just the one IC in the hot wort. I get much better results pumping ice water through the one IC as @wepeeler suggested. It only requires a small aquarium water pump you can get for very little money.

Perhaps my issue was that the second IC I made from type K copper pipe that has a very thick wall and the heat transfer isn't as good for IC's

You don't have to be in a hurry if you are convinced your sanitation is good. Just let the boil kettle sit covered till the next day.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, it was cumbersome - involving raising and lowering while constantly stirring the wort IC to 80F or so, then starting the ice bath on the first IC. Now the real fun begins, alternating raising and lowering the 1st and 2nd IC while stirring the wort. Comical, but got it to 52 when I called it and pitched. In the fridge now and cooling, hopefully 46 within a few hours.

Yes, next time - definitely recirc'ing with the pump and single IC. Thanks much for the many ideas guys.

 

[mashdar]

In WI I imagine you could fill a homer bucket with 4.5 gal water (0.5 headspace) and set it outside to freeze?

From there, fill the top with liquid water, and a cheap pond pump can recirculate. Aim the return water at the ice to get the flow to touch the ice as much as possible.

I do tap water to ~100F in winter, then ice water to 44 or so for a lager. I rarely melt 1/2 of the ice.

 

[Bobby_M]

With 50F tap water, you should be able to chill to 60 quickly as long as you're stirring or whirlpooling the wort.

Leave the fermenter outside to get frozen before you transfer into it.

 

[mashdar]

Stirring is a good point. I use an AIO and recirc over the chiller. I've heard some people move the chiller up and down, which would work great but is an elevated hose leak risk.

Re the pond pump, I have one end of the IC with a garden hose coupler, and the other side is bare. When I switch to the ice water, the hose end gets unscrewed and the bare end goes on the pump barb. The coupler then serves as a weight to help hold the return in place.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Stop overthinking this. Chill as far as you can with your ground water then put it in your fermentation chamber to cool to your fermentation temperature then pitch the yeast.

 

[Deadalus]

Newbie with no lager experience, but is this really a big deal? Nobody just chills to tap water temp, then places in the chamber to reach pitch temperature (say, overnight)?

Early on in my brewing journey I only had an immersion chiller. I held that view that the yeast needed to be pitched right away. I would get it as low as I could, pitch the yeast, then stick in the fermentaton chamber. Then I started to ease off that view by chilling to let the wort reach the high end of the lager temperature, then pitched the yeast. Along the way, I started using a plate chiller and when I started whirlpooling hops, I realized I could recirculate the wort to get it down in temperature a little lower than a single pass through would. This also works with a counterflow chiller, which I now use instead of the plate chiller. Another change I have made is that I now try to pitch at under the intended set point for the lager by a few degrees, so I let the wort get to that temperature in the ferm chamber, then pitch. I've read a number of anecdotes of brewers not having issues with allowing wort to cool overnight. I've been pretty successful all around with each of these methods, in general, it's the overall temperature control during the entire fermentation that is the most important in my view as far as temperature effects. I've always use liquid yeasts as well.

I've never added in the IC to my PC or CFC because the ice maker on my POS Samsung fridge broke and I just don't ever have the time on brew day to run out and get ice and would typically not remember to get it beforehand. Freezer is generally full as well.

 

[Bobby_M]

Newbie with no lager experience, but is this really a big deal? Nobody just chills to tap water temp, then places in the chamber to reach pitch temperature (say, overnight)?

Besides giving bacteria and wild yeast a chance at taking a foothold, there is also an oxidation risk. The wort is now in a temperature zone where it can start holding on to oxygen it was exposed to during the transfer into the fermenter. Usually it's not a problem because an immediate pitch of yeast will scavenge the oxygen. I would risk pitching yeast a few degrees warm before I'd let it sit for 12 hours, but there are a lot of factors like how the wort got transferred and how well the fermenter seals (cooling wort creates a vacuum in the fermenter). If you could flood it with CO2 and leave some pressure in there, that would be fine.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Newbie with no lager experience, but is this really a big deal? Nobody just chills to tap water temp, then places in the chamber to reach pitch temperature (say, overnight)?

I do it with all my beers, lagers and ales. With zero issues. Put the lid on your fermenter, you don’t have to seal it, while it cools then pitch your yeast when it reaches your fermentation temperature.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Always reluctant to go with a plate chiller, but our shop has a used one at $79. Bit leery as they can't be broken down to be cleaned, but thought a CIP with caustic might be sufficient. Most likely, if I end up with at least one pump on the system, I'll go CFC. In the meantime, the pond pump/recirc setup is awesome. Thanks again guys.

First lager in 20 years, Neufestbier ( ) rocking now.

 

[IslandLizard]

Always reluctant to go with a plate chiller, but our shop has a used one at $79. Bit leery as they can't be broken down to be cleaned,

I use a small 30-plate DudaDiesel plate chiller. Keeping solids out of it is the best strategy, so I use kettle filters, and kettle hops are bagged. Even Irish moss should be bagged.

You can bake them in a 450°F oven, and that helps to sanitize and dry out any hop pulp or other solids that inadvertently got in there, but you can never be sure you get it all out. Reason is, the plates form parallel channels, so the wort or water bypasses obstructions, without putting any pressure on clogs to break them up or help flush them out.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I use a small 30-plate DudaDiesel plate chiller. Keeping solids out of it is the best strategy, so I use kettle filters, and kettle hops are bagged. Even Irish moss should be bagged.

You can bake them in a 450°F oven, and that helps to sanitize and dry out any hop pulp or other solids that inadvertently got in there, but you can never be sure you get it all out. Reason is, the plates form parallel channels, so the wort or water bypasses obstructions, without putting any pressure on clogs to break them up or help flush them out.

OK, thanks Island. I think I'm going to shy away and likely go with a CFC then, if I end up with a pump. Unless it would be prohibitively expensive, it would be nice if they made a plate heat exchanger that can be broken down, on the home level. Probably not doable on a commercial basis.

 

[IslandLizard]

OK, thanks Island. I think I'm going to shy away and likely go with a CFC then,

CFCs can be just as efficient, with much less maintenance.
In the remote chance a (partial) obstruction would form inside the CFC, you can push or erode it out by recirculating hot cleaner back and forth. I'd still put a coarse mesh filter before the exit port though.

Just don't store a CFC in an area that can freeze, unless you drain or blow out all the water. Even then...

I've been using that plate chiller for 15 years, with mixed feelings for the first 8-10. But the troubles ended once I kept all solids in the kettle by simply bagging or using mesh baskets.

Those large mesh bottom kettle filters, such as Hop Stoppers, will probably do a good job too. But they all seem out of stock, or perhaps even discontinued.

Unless it would be prohibitively expensive, it would be nice if they made a plate heat exchanger that can be broken down, on the home level. Probably not doable on a commercial basis.

I haven't come across one yet. Even the smallest commercial one is much too big for homebrewing. The passages in those are probably much bigger too, so clogging may not be as much of an issue unless whole grain or hop flowers are sent down the pipe.

 

[redrocker652002]

Seeing as you're strained for time, if you can get it to low 60s, pitch and then throw in ferm chamber. Since you crashed the starter, the yeast will be in lag phase anyway for the time it takes to get your wort to the 50s in the ferm chamber.

In the future, when using an IC, you can fill a cooler with ice water and a pond pump to recirculate. It'll get the wort to 50 very quickly.

This is what I do. I found a cheap pump on amazon and I used it for both my IC and my keg and bucket washer. Cheap, easy and a few bags of ice from the local liquor store an I am at temp fairly soon. I use the time that I am chilling down to start my cleanup and sanitize my FV.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

This is what I do. I found a cheap pump on amazon and I used it for both my IC and my keg and bucket washer. Cheap, easy and a few bags of ice from the local liquor store an I am at temp fairly soon. I use the time that I am chilling down to start my cleanup and sanitize my FV.

There's a pump at Home Depot that seems to fit the bill at 500GPH, 1/2" tubing inlet ready to go (seems close anyway to the youtube vid @wepeeler posted - thanks again), but I'd prefer not to spend $64 on a pump if I can avoid it. Mind telling me which amazon pump you went with? Just didn't want to underpower the flow, as that's also key I would think, to the efficiency of the setup.