Wiring for 240 volt properly

[itsnotrequired]

just make sure that gfci breaker is compatible with your panel, sounds like you have already looked at it. and it sounds like you are looking at a 30 amp brew panel rather than a 50 amp? if so, you will have no problem with a 3/4" conduit for that 30 amp circuit, you could use 1/2" if you want. you can even stick the 20 amp circuit conductors in that 3/4" conduit. and you could even get both those circuits into a 1/2" conduit but it would be an awfully tight squeeze, especially if you used pvc. i wouldn't run less than 3/4" if both circuits are in the same conduit.

 

[thekraken]

just make sure that gfci breaker is compatible with your panel, sounds like you have already looked at it. and it sounds like you are looking at a 30 amp brew panel rather than a 50 amp?

I haven't decided yet. The difference in cost to get just the receptacle up and running is $80 to $115. That's not considering the difference in control panel components. I don't *need* it, but then again I don't *need* an electric setup either...

 

[podz]

Damn, that electrical panel equipment you all use in the US is really old fashioned.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Damn, that electrical panel equipment you all use in the US is really old fashioned.

how so?

 

[podz]

how so?

Consider the basic european residential 3-phase breaker panel:

 

[itsnotrequired]

us panels are very similar, minus the field wiring which looks like pipes. i assume that is for demonstration purposes only and doesn't actually look that way in the field.

 

[Kh2o]

Get him itsnotrequired. I could make a nice colored cad drawing like that too! Nice automatic transfer switch btw.

 

[itsnotrequired]

if we want to talk ridiculously clean wiring, it doesn't get much better than this:

 

[Kh2o]

I have seen that picture before. And it still amazes me! Who the hell has the patience for that?!

 

[podz]

Get him itsnotrequired. I could make a nice colored cad drawing like that too! Nice automatic transfer switch btw.

Those wire colors are actually european regulation.

As you see 3-phase coming into the main switch:

L1 = brown
L2 = black
L3 = grey


Neutral = blue
Ground = yellow/green
Phase (single) = brown


There you can see my 3-phase panel when it was just installed and feeding nothing else than a pair of 3-phase subpanels.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6778301&postcount=60

 

[Kh2o]

Those wire colors are actually european regulation.



As you see 3-phase coming into the main switch:



L1 = brown

L2 = black

L3 = grey





Neutral = blue

Ground = yellow/green

Phase (single) = brown





There you can see my 3-phase panel when it was just installed and feeding nothing else than a pair of 3-phase subpanels.



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6778301&postcount=60

Yeah I figured as much. China does the same thing. I have wired some Chinese appliances here in the US. The first time I did there were no instructions, so yeah I blew that **** up. That was my first experience with your silly blue neutrals. It's just so wrong!

Next you're going to tell me the metric system is better!

These are jokes, just busting balls. I wish we used metric. But not blue neutrals.......

 

[podz]

Yeah I figured as much. China does the same thing. I have wired some Chinese appliances here in the US. The first time I did there were no instructions, so yeah I blew that **** up. That was my first experience with your silly blue neutrals. It's just so wrong!

Next you're going to tell me the metric system is better!

These are jokes, just busting balls. I wish we used metric. But not blue neutrals.......

China uses wire colors to match their largest market, which is not USA. Anyway, blue neutral is better than blue balls ;-)

 

[itsnotrequired]

here in the states, there are some historical conventions for three-phase system colors, namely brown-orange-yellow for 480 volt and black-red-blue for 208 volt systems. three-phase is very rare in residences but common colors are black for hot and white for neutral on 120 volt single-phase circuits. 240 volt circuits will add a red conductor for a second hot. but all of this is just conventions, only some of it is dictated by code. code dictates colors for intentionally grounded circuits (neutrals) as white or gray. green or green with yellow stripe is for ground conductors. except for a few specialized instances, the hot conductors can be any color you want.

 

[UndeadFred]

The reason we don't have 240V at our outlets and three phase is that a-hole Edison trying to prove that Tesla's system was more dangerous than his DC by electrocuting stuff with AC at fairs in public.

(Guess what... the opposite is true, I'll take a AC hit over a DC one any day, and I've done both as an RF Engineer).. this was the reason for the supposedly "safer" 120V too as a side effect of that crapola...

Our lives would be so much easier for a lot of stuff if we had 208V Three phase as standard wiring in the US. We'd have heating appliances that, well actually worked and didn't have to be hard wired in.

NEC is very conservative in reality. In house wiring that may not be replaced for 60+ years that is a good thing. To say that someone sucks because they used 12 THHN to their elements in their 5500W eBIAB setup for a 6 foot run, however is crazy stupid ridiculous. Leave it at that. If it is screwed down to the house do it right.. if not, feel free to make slight changes...

(I'm an electrical engineer, and have passed the county's electricians test that is required where I am at to do your own work. Open book vs closed is the only difference between the professional test and the homeowners here..)

Fred

 

[itsnotrequired]

three-phase to the home may be 'better' than single phase but it ain't happening any time soon. and for the vast majority of utilization equipment in a home, three-phase just isn't justified, short of sweeping changes in the entire electrical industry.

the nec is indeed conservative but i'm not going to complain. the electrical fire/electrocution rate in this country is fairly low and is trending downwards, despite a growing population and a greater ingress of electricity into our lives. just look at the image below. and this only goes back to the mid seventies, electrical incidents were even greater further in the past. the nec is a massive contributor to greater safety in electricity.

from a practical standpoint, many code violations introduce no real danger but they are violations nonetheless. using your example above, what is saved by using #12 conductors vs #10? $0.50? why even bother with such an installation? if $0.50 is some type of make or break cost for brewing, then that person needs a different hobby. and to make statements like 'feel free to make slight changes' is extremely disingenuous, you never know how such statements will be interpreted and applied by others.

 

[odorf]

I have seen that picture before. And it still amazes me! Who the hell has the patience for that?!

I piped a boiler room in Telluride Co the new [then] high school.

the old Electrician was retiring after that job. he was Old old school.

And he had my boiler room looking like that. His emt rack and piping down the walls was a thing of beauty. HELL, it was MY boiler room, and the old man was making me up my game.

The General contractor issued a change order. so some young electrician came blowing thru the boiler room, running a 3/4 emt
LOL The old man was on his ass. I could hear him hollering.
You aint running that crooked ass **** in my GD boiler room!!!!

 

[augiedoggy]

three-phase to the home may be 'better' than single phase but it ain't happening any time soon. and for the vast majority of utilization equipment in a home, three-phase just isn't justified, short of sweeping changes in the entire electrical industry.

the nec is indeed conservative but i'm not going to complain. the electrical fire/electrocution rate in this country is fairly low and is trending downwards, despite a growing population and a greater ingress of electricity into our lives. just look at the image below. and this only goes back to the mid seventies, electrical incidents were even greater further in the past. the nec is a massive contributor to greater safety in electricity.

from a practical standpoint, many code violations introduce no real danger but they are violations nonetheless. using your example above, what is saved by using #12 conductors vs #10? $0.50? why even bother with such an installation? if $0.50 is some type of make or break cost for brewing, then that person needs a different hobby. and to make statements like 'feel free to make slight changes' is extremely disingenuous, you never know how such statements will be interpreted and applied by others.

I think its a sad state or affairs that has more to do with the decrease in electrical accidents however great that outcome may be in this case.
Its drilled into societies head more and more to not attempt to learn new things and do things themselves but rather hire a service for everything... You can see it in everything from painting to lawn care and cleaning services... The average younger american has a totally different way of looking at things than the older generation did. They are often less knowledgeable about how things around them work and more concerned with cell phones,tv and fashion trends. Its a trend that has no end. In 50 years you just may see professional appliances that wipe your ass so you get hurt attempting it yourself. we are also conditioned more and more to just do what the rules say and not ask why even when those rules may or should not apply.. If one is smart enough with enough knowledge to realize a 6ft run of 12g will carry the 22amps from a 5500w element without issues than more power to him. its still safer and less likely to be an issue than many of the connections made at either end were the problems usually occur.
(my 12g wire is rated for 25A btw so as far as i understand the insulation type and thickness effects ratings for this application but my elements only draw 18.4 amps max)

 

[itsnotrequired]

I think its a sad state or affairs that has more to do with the decrease in electrical accidents however great that outcome may be in this case.
Its drilled into societies head more and more to not attempt to learn new things and do things themselves but rather hire a service for everything... You can see it in everything from painting to lawn care and cleaning services... The average younger american has a totally different way of looking at things than the older generation did. They are often less knowledgeable about how things around them work and more concerned with cell phones,tv and fashion trends. Its a trend that has no end. In 50 years you just may see professional appliances that wipe your ass so you get hurt attempting it yourself. we are also conditioned more and more to just do what the rules say and not ask why even when those rules may or should not apply.. If one is smart enough with enough knowledge to realize a 6ft run of 12g will carry the 22amps from a 5500w element without issues than more power to him. its still safer and less likely to be an issue than many of the connections made at either end were the problems usually occur.
(my 12g wire is rated for 25A btw so as far as i understand the insulation type and thickness effects ratings for this application but my elements only draw 18.4 amps max)

each code cycle, proposals are submitted which would make it a code requirement that only licensed individuals perform electrical work and each time, the code making panel reject them. they substantiate these decisions by stating the code is guide for how to do the work, not who does the work. there is still plenty of room for individuals to do their own work, unless municipalities start passing ordinances stating only the pros can do the work. it is like this in chicago where technically, a homeowner can't even swap out a regular light switch with a dimmer switch. they would need to hire a pro. this isn't a consequence of the code but rather of politics. but it is difficult to argue that the requirements over the years for gfcis, tamper-proof receptacles, etc. have not resulted in safer installations.

in regards to your thhn wire, it is indeed rated to carry 25 amps continuously, provided the terminations at both end of the conductor are rated for 75 degree c. the code issue is that for the types of circuits we are discussing, code requires no greater than a 20 amp breaker on that #12 conductor. there is a long history as to why that is but as they say, it is what it is. is there some inherent danger with using that #12 on a 25 amp breaker? i would say no but it is still a violation. if folks recognize it is a violation and make an educated decision to accept the risks, more power to them. it is all about education.

 

[thekraken]

I really appreciate you guys openly sharing your knowledge. When I started this thread I expected a lot more of "hire a professional" type responses like @augiedoggy was saying. So far I've only gotten the one in the very first reply and I think it was meant more of just a disclaimer.

As an engineer I enjoy learning to do this kind of stuff (correctly). It can be tough to find people to give guidance on these sorts of things as the usually assume I am one of those young people that is "more concerned with cell phones, tv and fashion trends" and I'll just hurt someone. (I'm stubborn and I'm going to do it anyway... might as well teach me how to do it right)

Anyway, somehow my simple question turned into an 8 page thread, thanks for everyone's patience and advice.

(Disclosure: there's probably a 50% chance I'll be back with more questions )

 

[augiedoggy]

each code cycle, proposals are submitted which would make it a code requirement that only licensed individuals perform electrical work and each time, the code making panel reject them. they substantiate these decisions by stating the code is guide for how to do the work, not who does the work. there is still plenty of room for individuals to do their own work, unless municipalities start passing ordinances stating only the pros can do the work. it is like this in chicago where technically, a homeowner can't even swap out a regular light switch with a dimmer switch. they would need to hire a pro. this isn't a consequence of the code but rather of politics. but it is difficult to argue that the requirements over the years for gfcis, tamper-proof receptacles, etc. have not resulted in safer installations.

in regards to your thhn wire, it is indeed rated to carry 25 amps continuously, provided the terminations at both end of the conductor are rated for 75 degree c. the code issue is that for the types of circuits we are discussing, code requires no greater than a 20 amp breaker on that #12 conductor. there is a long history as to why that is but as they say, it is what it is. is there some inherent danger with using that #12 on a 25 amp breaker? i would say no but it is still a violation. if folks recognize it is a violation and make an educated decision to accept the risks, more power to them. it is all about education.

What Exactly are the risks? I know the conversation I had with my insurance company basically entailed that up to code or not if their was and issue caused by my device I could be responsible since its not UL listed or CE certified they have an easy out not to pay the claim. Since its more or less a homemade appliance and not hardwired its not like a permit and inspection is required? So what would be the effects of building to code vs doing something which is known to be safe but not to code for that set of circumstances? This seems like one of those circumstances where we would be punished for not having the "normal commercially made and certified devices regardless..

 

[augiedoggy]

I really appreciate you guys openly sharing your knowledge. When I started this thread I expected a lot more of "hire a professional" type responses like @augiedoggy was saying. So far I've only gotten the one in the very first reply and I think it was meant more of just a disclaimer.

As an engineer I enjoy learning to do this kind of stuff (correctly). It can be tough to find people to give guidance on these sorts of things as the usually assume I am one of those young people that is "more concerned with cell phones, tv and fashion trends" and I'll just hurt someone. (I'm stubborn and I'm going to do it anyway... might as well teach me how to do it right)

Anyway, somehow my simple question turned into an 8 page thread, thanks for everyone's patience and advice.

(Disclosure: there's probably a 50% chance I'll be back with more questions )

Hey Im only 37 so im not as old as that comment made me sound. I know what your saying and while I dont own an engineering degree, my title is a "Field engineer" and I support machinery that often requires creative ingenuity to keep running depending on application and environment. Hell some of it required "rengineering" just to work period

 

[thekraken]

(told y'all I wasn't done with the questions)

So, running the #10 and the #12 in a horizontal run straight down the length of the wall. Am I allowed to put my 20amp receptacles inline with this conduit or do I need to 'branch" my receptacles off? In other words, some future homeowner might be surprised to open up this 120v receptacle and find 240v wires passing through.

 

[Kh2o]

(told y'all I wasn't done with the questions)

So, running the #10 and the #12 in a horizontal run straight down the length of the wall. Am I allowed to put my 20amp receptacles inline with this conduit or do I need to 'branch" my receptacles off? In other words, some future homeowner might be surprised to open up this 120v receptacle and find 240v wires passing through.

You're good. No problems there.

 

[itsnotrequired]

What Exactly are the risks? I know the conversation I had with my insurance company basically entailed that up to code or not if their was and issue caused by my device I could be responsible since its not UL listed or CE certified they have an easy out not to pay the claim. Since its more or less a homemade appliance and not hardwired its not like a permit and inspection is required? So what would be the effects of building to code vs doing something which is known to be safe but not to code for that set of circumstances? This seems like one of those circumstances where we would be punished for not having the "normal commercially made and certified devices regardless..

for this specific case, any risk is extremely small. think of it like speeding. am i a rolling sarcophagi if traveling 56 mph in a 55 zone? of course not but it is still speeding. like i said, it is all about education. the problem is when uneducated folks start skimping here or skimping there, they eventually may skimp on something that cases a real problem.

and you are absolutely correct on the insurance front. if everything was built to ul, permitted and passed inspection, the insurance company would have essentially zero justification for denying a claim. with homemade stuff, there is always that chance they could tell you to take a hike after an accident, just one of the risks we need to live with.

 

[itsnotrequired]

You're good. No problems there.

just keep in mind the box fill rules. the extra conductors may exceed the maximum allowable fill.

 

[Kh2o]

just keep in mind the box fill rules. the extra conductors may exceed the maximum allowable fill.

Oh stop it. Im sure he is fine. They just pass through anyway. Not saying they don't count. But you're getting a little too picky.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Oh stop it. Im sure he is fine. They just pass through anyway. Not saying they don't count. But you're getting a little too picky.

with a three-wire #10 pass through circuit, two-wire #12 circuit, shared #10 egc and a gfci duplex receptacle, looking at 23.5 cu in of fill. most single-gang surface mount deep boxes are rated at 24 cu in. so this would juuust fit. if it was a standard-depth box (or an unlabeled box), it would be a violation. and gfci receptacles take up much more physical volume than a regular receptacle, even though code doesn't differentiate between the two so the situation is worse. if he goes with pigtail connections for the receptacle, it will be even worse and we are talking about stressed conductors/connections, everything smashed in, etc. even if code is ignored, it could be a pita to make it work.

 

[ingchr1]

(told y'all I wasn't done with the questions)

So, running the #10 and the #12 in a horizontal run straight down the length of the wall. Am I allowed to put my 20amp receptacles inline with this conduit or do I need to 'branch" my receptacles off? In other words, some future homeowner might be surprised to open up this 120v receptacle and find 240v wires passing through.

You're good. No problems there.

Still working on my brew area, but that's exactly how I ran my electrical. I used standard boxes with extensions to bring the receptacles flush with the cinder block. As suggested above, the first box (the quad) would have been a PITA without the extension. I would suggest at least using deep boxes.

 

[Kh2o]

with a three-wire #10 pass through circuit, two-wire #12 circuit, shared #10 egc and a gfci duplex receptacle, looking at 23.5 cu in of fill. most single-gang surface mount deep boxes are rated at 24 cu in. so this would juuust fit. if it was a standard-depth box (or an unlabeled box), it would be a violation. and gfci receptacles take up much more physical volume than a regular receptacle, even though code doesn't differentiate between the two so the situation is worse. if he goes with pigtail connections for the receptacle, it will be even worse and we are talking about stressed conductors/connections, everything smashed in, etc. even if code is ignored, it could be a pita to make it work.

2 #10 conductors 2x2.5= 5
Largest ground counts as one 1 x 2.5 = 2.5
4 #12 (assuming the #12 are passing through as well) 4x2.25 = 9
Gfci device 2 times largest conductor 2.5x2=5

21.5 cubic inches.

Where did you get your additional 2 cubic inches?

 

[thekraken]

with a three-wire #10 pass through circuit, two-wire #12 circuit, shared #10 egc and a gfci duplex receptacle, looking at 23.5 cu in of fill. most single-gang surface mount deep boxes are rated at 24 cu in. so this would juuust fit. if it was a standard-depth box (or an unlabeled box), it would be a violation. and gfci receptacles take up much more physical volume than a regular receptacle, even though code doesn't differentiate between the two so the situation is worse. if he goes with pigtail connections for the receptacle, it will be even worse and we are talking about stressed conductors/connections, everything smashed in, etc. even if code is ignored, it could be a pita to make it work.

I was going to go with 4x4x2ish? boxes, a pair of duplex receptacles at each one. I already have a Leviton 'slim' 20 amp gfi receptacle.

But you guys are gunna love this, I just came out of my attic... I'm seriously reconsidering just running romex through the wall... Regarding romex, I do not have to staple it behind an existing wall correct? Does it have to be secured/stapled to the attic joists? I notice my house wiring isn't secured to anything once it exits the wall... (Just talking about the #10)

Side note: while I was up there it occurred to me that there is 4wire 40 amps running to my *gas* oven, and wouldn't you know it, the oven doesn't even use it.. Go figure. Anyway, swmbo emphatically said no before I could even start day dreaming kitchen brewing.