240v GFCI breaker vs inline GFCI?

[heckofagator]

Need to get my new Foundry wired up. I have been looking at GFCI breakers for my panel and apparently the GFCI breaker is about $140.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ECKLKBM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1QRT0RAXAWMKI&psc=1
Panel is Eaton CH type. I see there are also inline GFCI's which may be a bit cheaper. Just wondering if there's a preferred way to go? I also saw mention of a spa subpanel, but those seemed to be over $100, so I'm not sure that buys be a whole lot of $$ savings going that way.

FWIW, I was planning on a 30amp 240v circuit with L6-30r near the panel and then I'll need to make an extension cord from the Anvil 6-15p to the new L6-30r. I hope no issues with that.....

 

[Deadalus]

How about this breaker instead? Amazon.com

 

[heckofagator]

How about this breaker instead? Amazon.com

I do wish!

From my research, Eaton has BR and CH type panels. Mine is CH type that takes 3/4" wide breakers. The cheaper one you linked (and believe me, I saw it earlier and was excited) is the 1" wide BR series from everything I can see on that page. thank you though!

 

[Deadalus]

Too bad...it did say Cutler Hammer but it also says the breaker is 1". Usually prices are lower on the panel gfci breaker vs. the inline gfci cords. I think also the spa panels were typically less but sounds like your panel type may be limiting options. My panel is GE and the panel breaker was definitely cheaper than the cord.

You may know this but there may be manufacturer literature for your panel that specifies the model numbers of the breakers that are compatible with your panel. If you can discover the model numbers for the specific GFCI breakers that work, you may be able to get a better price searching those. This is what I did.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Boy, someone is getting rich off of those GFIC breakers!

If you go the route of a spa sub-panel you could go with something else besides an Eaton brand. Hopefully that could save you some money.

 

[Bobby_M]

Why are you using a 30amp circuit to power a system that draws less than 15amps? A 2 pole 15amp GFCI breaker is much cheaper.

 

[heckofagator]

Why are you using a 30amp circuit to power a system that draws less than 15amps? A 2 pole 15amp GFCI breaker is much cheaper.

Good Q, I was trying to be flexible for the future. I also have a 10" cabinet table saw, specs say 13amp at full draw but then lists 15amp as the min circuit size. ALso a 16" bandsaw which might even be more but I need to verify.

I did start looking at 20amp breakers and those seemed just as expensive from what I remember, so I think I jumped to 30amp just to leave options open.

I mean....I'm not excited to pay $140 for a breaker, but $50-$100 more in the long run isn't terrible. I guess I can revisit the 15 and 20amp breakers for my panel and see if they are any cheaper.

EDIT: Yeah, the 15 and 20 amp gfci breaker for my panel seem just as expensive, if not more.

 

[Bobby_M]

That's a great reason. If you're paying to put in a circuit, the labor is the big chunk anyway.

 

[Deadalus]

Good Q, I was trying to be flexible for the future. I also have a 10" cabinet table saw, specs say 13amp at full draw but then lists 15amp as the min circuit size. ALso a 16" bandsaw which might even be more but I need to verify.

I did start looking at 20amp breakers and those seemed just as expensive from what I remember, so I think I jumped to 30amp just to leave options open.

I mean....I'm not excited to pay $140 for a breaker, but $50-$100 more in the long run isn't terrible. I guess I can revisit the 15 and 20amp breakers for my panel and see if they are any cheaper.

EDIT: Yeah, the 15 and 20 amp gfci breaker for my panel seem just as expensive, if not more.

You may just be leaving some details out concerning the work you plan on having done, like more than one line? Your table saw probably runs on 120 volts, not 240. A 20 amp, 120 volt line would be fine the table saw and you could put a GFCI outlet on that line. Usually no more than $15 for the outlet. You might have some bigger power tools in mind like a welder however for the 240 line.

 

[heckofagator]

You may just be leaving some details out concerning the work you plan on having done, like more than one line? Your table saw probably runs on 120 volts, not 240. A 20 amp, 120 volt line would be fine the table saw and you could put a GFCI outlet on that line. Usually no more than $15 for the outlet. You might have some bigger power tools in mind like a welder however for the 240 line.

Table saw and bandsaw are both definitely 240v 3hp motors. I havent used them in years but would like to start again so i wanted to size the circuit to make sure i could use them here in our new house No need for a welder for what i do.

Nobody has really mentioned the inline gfci (why i started this whole discussion) so thats why i’ve really just steered towards the gfci breaker. Everything i’ve read said its ok to upsize the circuit for future use, just incase. I’m not stuck on the 30 amp circuit, i think 20 would be fine, but since the smaller breaker didnt seem to be any cheaper, i wasnt seeing a reason not to go to 30. Simple as that.

I am running another 120v line at the same time but to a totally different room and different project (dedicated circuit for home theater subwoofer amp).

We do have an existing 14-50 240v receptacle in the garage for my hybrid, but i gave up trying to figure out how to best use that for the Foundry and WW tools so will just leave that alone.

 

[Indian_villager]

Need to get my new Foundry wired up. I have been looking at GFCI breakers for my panel and apparently the GFCI breaker is about $140.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ECKLKBM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1QRT0RAXAWMKI&psc=1
Panel is Eaton CH type. I see there are also inline GFCI's which may be a bit cheaper. Just wondering if there's a preferred way to go? I also saw mention of a spa subpanel, but those seemed to be over $100, so I'm not sure that buys be a whole lot of $$ savings going that way.

FWIW, I was planning on a 30amp 240v circuit with L6-30r near the panel and then I'll need to make an extension cord from the Anvil 6-15p to the new L6-30r. I hope no issues with that.....

Everyone forgot about ebay. *NEW* Circuit Breaker Eaton CHN230GF CH230GF 30 Amp 2 Pole 120/240V GFCI | eBay

 

[heckofagator]

thanks! I have been googling high and low for that part number, I'm not sure why ebay doesn't come up. I know I've seen a lot of refurbished units so I've been a bit weary of some of the smaller, less known sellers. But that ebay seller seems to have a good rating.

 

[Agent]

The main reason I'd personally look at an in-line GFI would be because some motors will nuisance trip on a GFI circuit.

That, and the reset would be conveniently located if (when) something goes awry.

 

[heckofagator]

The main reason I'd personally look at an in-line GFI would be because some motors will nuisance trip on a GFI circuit.

That, and the reset would be conveniently located if (when) something goes awry.

yeah, I can imagine that would be frustrating if you were trying to use a tool and it kept tripping.

 

[doug293cz]

Pretty much all of the in-line 240V GFCIs I have seen are three wire only (hot-hot-ground) with no neutral. This is okay if none of the loads you want to use it with have any 120V circuitry inside them. But if you need 240V and 120V from the same plug, they won't work.

Brew on

 

[PCABrewing]

I’m not stuck on the 30 amp circuit, i think 20 would be fine, but since the smaller breaker didnt seem to be any cheaper, i wasnt seeing a reason not to go to 30. Simple as that.

What about the wire cost difference?

 

[heckofagator]

What about the wire cost difference?

Receptacle is going right next to breaker (same as my EV circuit) so only need a foot or two of wire, thankfully.

 

[Thorrak]

Pretty much all of the in-line 240V GFCIs I have seen are three wire only (hot-hot-ground) with no neutral. This is okay if none of the loads you want to use it with have any 120V circuitry inside them. But if you need 240V and 120V from the same plug, they won't work.

Brew on

Do ones with a neutral exist? We’re about to get a brewing outlet installed, and was looking at going the GFCI breaker route.

 

[doug293cz]

Do ones with a neutral exist? We’re about to get a brewing outlet installed, and was looking at going the GFCI breaker route.

Breaker panel mounted 240V GFCIs always provide a neutral, if you use four conductor wire from panel to outlet. I was talking specifically about in-line (cord "mounted") 240V GFCIs.

Brew on

 

[whoaru99]

Do ones with a neutral exist? We’re about to get a brewing outlet installed, and was looking at going the GFCI breaker route.

If you are going GFI breaker and a 120/240V circuit to a 120V/240V receptacle (eg. 14-XX) that takes care of itself because the neutral is run in addition to the two hot legs and the equipment grounding wire.

 

[Thorrak]

Perfect! Thanks - looking forward to finally upgrading from 110v!

 

[heckofagator]

Was just reading a post on the Anvil FB group and it was mentioned (I thunk if I understood it correctly) that without a neutral in the receptacle, there would be no gfci protection. Is that correct? The only 4 wire 240v receptacle seem to be the bigger dryer/appliance type. The smaller l6-30 which I was thinking about using is only 3 wire

Confused.....

 

[whoaru99]

GFI relies on detecting a difference between current in and current out.

If you need 120V then you need a neutral. GFI monitors for the difference in current between hot and neutral.

A 240V only circuit does not have a neutral so GFI monitors for differerence between the two hot legs.

 

[doug293cz]

GFI relies on detecting a difference between current in and current out.

If you need 120V then you need a neutral. GFI monitors for the difference in current between hot and neutral.

A 240V only circuit does not have a neutral so GFI monitors for differerence between the two hot legs.

In case it was missed, no you don't need a neutral for a GFCI to work.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

Another way to say it is a GFCI device compares the current moving towards the load against the current coming back. If it varies by several milliamps, it trips because those missing milliamps might be going across your heart. When a system uses a neutral, you definitely want the neutral to pass through the GFCI.

 

[whoaru99]

As doug293cz alluded to in previous post, panel mount GFI breakers (at least every one I've seen) connect to the neutral bus inside the panel.

So, the bases are covered regardless if you run a 2-wire (L1-L2) 240V-only circuit or a 3-wire (L1-N-L2) 120/240V circuit from the panel to the appropriate receptacle.

 

[heckofagator]

FWIW, this is what Anvil is sending out to support inquiries. I obviously don't know how to read this, as I asked if you still use the pigtail from the GFCI breaker and the answer was no (but it sure looks like in the diagram the neutral is hooked up). So I'm just going to pass this along to the electrician and stop trying to understand all of this complicated stuff.

 

[doug293cz]

FWIW, this is what Anvil is sending out to support inquiries. I obviously don't know how to read this, as I asked if you still use the pigtail from the GFCI breaker and the answer was no (but it sure looks like in the diagram the neutral is hooked up). So I'm just going to pass this along to the electrician and stop trying to understand all of this complicated stuff.

You may need to connect the pigtail to the neutral bus in the panel in order for the "Test" button on the GFCI to work, even if you don't wire the neutral all the way to the outlet. I would think Code would require the pigtail to be properly connected, but I am not a Code wizard.

Brew on

 

[whoaru99]

Yeah, now it's bordering into kludge territory with running neutral here, ground there, etc.

Personally, I'd just buck up for the GFI panel breaker, a 14-xx receptacle for 120/240V capability, then an adapter/extension cord to connect the 6-xx Anvil plug to the 14-xx receptacle.

That drawing from Anvil may not even apply to the inline GFI device, depending the specifics of the exact inline device chosen.

I could see that working on a spa panel implementation of "inline" GFI but not necessarily on one of the cord-type inline ones.

It's at the point now where more than generic concepts are necessary to cross the finish line.

 

[mkopec1]

IDK why you would need a GFCI for any power tools, like a tablesaw in the garage, that are probably located on the wall somewhere anyway. I know 240v is nothing to mess with but I just dont see the stuff getting wet in the garage. GFCI were always about protecting peeps from frying themselves around water, **** like pools, kitchen, bathrooms, BREWING BEER!, but aside that I just dont see a reason to install GFCI breakers on everything thats 240 like garage and tablesaws. I have welding stuff on 240v at my cabin up in N Michigan and none of that stuff is on GFCI and I never really thought to add one there. And I cant even think one time where moisture and welding plug was a thing in my pole barn.

It would get frustrating as hell every time the thing would trip for no reason, like many of those GFCI things do while I was trying to rip some board in half.

 

[heckofagator]

was originally trying to save a couple bucks with a multi-use outlet, but electrician stated that motors will often do not play nice with GFCI.

I had the electrical work done last week. Electrician did the 240v 30amp GFCI outlet for the brewer with the GFCI breaker that was pointed out from ebay above. And then also ran a separate non-gfci 20amp 240v outlet for tools. Both new receptacles are right near the garage sub panel so wire cost was low. Just had 2x boxes, conduit, outlet, etc.

 

[mkopec1]

Mind me asking how much that set you back?

 

[heckofagator]

the job was $300 in parts and $500 in labor. Those locking plugs and receptacles are not cheap, plus I needed an extension cord, so I can run the brewer outside. That service operating cable (really nice and flexible, not like romex) was $50 alone.

I also had a couple new 120v circuits ran in the room above the garage for home theater amps. I think that was the majority of the labor as they had to run conduit and drill thru the ceiling, etc.

 

[mac_1103]

IDK why you would need a GFCI for any power tools, like a tablesaw in the garage

Code for starters.

 

[whoaru99]

IDK why you would need a GFCI for any power tools, like a tablesaw in the garage, that are probably located on the wall somewhere anyway. I know 240v is nothing to mess with but I just dont see the stuff getting wet in the garage. GFCI were always about protecting peeps from frying themselves around water, **** like pools, kitchen, bathrooms, BREWING BEER!, but aside that I just dont see a reason to install GFCI breakers on everything thats 240 like garage and tablesaws. I have welding stuff on 240v at my cabin up in N Michigan and none of that stuff is on GFCI and I never really thought to add one there. And I cant even think one time where moisture and welding plug was a thing in my pole barn.

It would get frustrating as hell every time the thing would trip for no reason, like many of those GFCI things do while I was trying to rip some board in half.

It isn't about just water.

And, whatever reasons one may think they don't need it doesn't really matter.

For new construction, new circuits, and in some cases even modification of existing circuit wiring to Code requires GFI essentially everywhere these days; not just a few select places like in the past.

Old circuits without GFI are grandfathered under whatever Code applied at the time they were installed; some cases of modification to old/existing circuits can require bringing up to current Code though.

 

[Langerz]

You may need to connect the pigtail to the neutral bus in the panel in order for the "Test" button on the GFCI to work, even if you don't wire the neutral all the way to the outlet. I would think Code would require the pigtail to be properly connected, but I am not a Code wizard.

Brew on

I'm not an expert on the internals of a GFI breaker, but I thought the internal circuitry for the GFCI required the breaker as well.

I just went through what OP did as well. I'm pretty handy with wiring but my current box is a mess (old hose with many many add ons - well actually four boxes with many many add ons) and while I have done plenty work inside a panel I don't really like it and this one was going to require lots of moving things around to make it work so I hired it out. Besides the panel work it was a super easy job since the panel is in the same room I brew in.

The guy I hired couldn't find a GFCI breaker without ordering. I told him just go ahead and I would just order one and change it out. I was trying to get everything done so I could brew over my holiday break and didn't want to miss the window of when the guy was available.

So I paid a guy $400 and then found a GFCI online for $55. (Square D panel). I went to swap out the breaker and the GFCI one is significantly bigger than the standard and I ended up having to move everything around in the panel anyway to get it to fit. So basically just donated $400 to the guy (well the labor portion I would have had to buy some of the material anyway).

The good news is I'm up and running.

Related to the original question if you want the circuit to be multi use wouldn't a spa panel be the way to go? I'm not terribly familiar with them but I have seen some that plug into an existed 220V outlet. That way when you are brewing you plug in the spa panel and they when you are using the table saw you unplug the spa panel and plug in the saw directly. Not sure code loves that but seems workable.

Disclaimer - no one should take electrical advice from me.

 

[whoaru99]

Having the whole circuit protected by GFI is always the better option IMO because it reduces the risk of electrocution regardless what is connected to the circuit.

Of course, with GFI there is some risk of tripping out causing a different issue (like your freezer shutting unexpectedly) but that sort of situation doesn't really apply to a power tool. If a power tool is tripping out the GFI might be a good plan to figure out why rather than not use GFI.

 

[sibelman]

If a power tool is tripping out the GFI might be a good plan to figure out why rather than not use GFI.

This is logical, and safety is important. But GFCI could be more trouble than benefit for a table saw where electrical risk seems to be very low.

I'm no electrician but it seems to me that inductive loads like motors sometimes trip GFCI breakers "just because." Is that true?

 

[whoaru99]

If it's a grandfathered circuit one has a choice to let sleeping dogs lay.

I have a table saw that is used on GFI circuit because the wiring in the garage is new enough to require it by Code. Neither the table saw nor anything else I've used in the garage have tripped GFI.

 

[sibelman]

the wiring in the garage is new enough to require it by Code.

Interesting.

When I had a 240V circuit brewing circuit added to my garage (Oregon, 2016), the inspector didn't flag lack of GFCI. Maybe he would've if the sink had already been installed.

I later bought an in-line GFCI based on HBT advice.