Will this cheap 3500 watt induction burner work?
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Virgin brew session on the new IC3500 
It's a Newcastle clone from Brewing Classic Styles.
Here's a tour:
And here is the recipe:
It's a Newcastle clone from Brewing Classic Styles.
Here's a tour:
And here is the recipe:
Code:
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.36 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.86 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 13.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.5 %
11.0 oz Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.0 %
7.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.5 %
7.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.5 %
4.0 oz UK Pale Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.5 %
1.30 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 Hop 6 24.2 IBUs
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 Hop 8 1.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-) [23.66 ml] Yeast 9 -
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Yes until someone with solid electronics knowledge opens up the guts of the burner and figures it out you won't be able to control the burner via pid. You may be able to use these burners with a HERMS by setting the water temp a little higher than desired and using the pid to control the pump. Thermometer on outflow.
I saw one guy on YouTube who found an induction hob that was analog and he was able to control with a pid
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When you shut the unit of, the fan runs for some time. Haven't researched it, but logic would say that it has to cool to a set temperature before a complete shutdown. Any attempt to use an external control would have to take that into consideration.
sumbrewindude
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If it's the video I'm thinking of, that wasn't a HOB - it was a standard hotplate with the PID controlling it.
I haven't torn into one yet, but I'm fairly certain that it's a digital logic circuit that's controlling the switching on the HOB's. Could portions of that circuit be bypassed? Sure, but you'll likely be crawling into some chips and dealing with a multilevel circuit board for the sake of running the PID in thermostat mode.
For less effort and better control I could build a RIMS and have accurate step mashing and/or the possibility of immediate sparge water.
I thought about a HERMS style rig with this setup, and after doing some serious digging and looking into some of the negatives that HERMS systems have, really a RIMS setup would work best in this instance - IMO.
Of course opinions and milage may vary.
Installed my reflectix insulation jacket and doing another boil test. Just one layer of insulation for now.
Geoffm33, the $40 x-stand from Home Depot does wobble. I am using it with a miter saw right now and it wobbles. Just wanted to let you know. I love it, but it does wobble when adjust the bevel and miter.
I notice it too when I have my mitre box and hand saw on it. But mostly it's from the pressure I put on the corner where I hold it. When I saw I push/pull with the motion.
But with the burner, 15 pound kettle and 64 lbs of water it's pretty stable
At least infinitely more stable than the service cart!
Those of you with the reflectix insulation, do you leave it on during the boil? Any burning/melting? Thanks!
Here are the results from my boil test with 1 layer of reflectix insulation. Unfortunately I was multi-tasking so don't have all the same data points as the first test.
8gallons at 58* (note: 6* cooler than first test)
94* at 16 minutes
160* at 46 minutes
212* at 72 minutes
So, better, but not MUCH better. I have since added a second layer of reflectix. Will test again.
At any rate, the reflectix jacket will help keep the mash temps better, while adding a few degrees more efficiency.
I notice it too when I have my mitre box and hand saw on it. But mostly it's from the pressure I put on the corner where I hold it. When I saw I push/pull with the motion.
But with the burner, 15 pound kettle and 64 lbs of water it's pretty stable
At least infinitely more stable than the service cart!
Oh that's good news. Think it's still $40 well spent!
sammy33
Well-Known Member
Yes, I leave it on during the boil and no melting or burning.
Thanks! Trying to do a new test with my second layer of reflectix. But I left the insulation on overnight and when I went to test this morning, it was still 150*!
If I used this for my setup, I only get 2,200 watts on the 3500 watt setting.
I go 64° to boil on 8 gallons in 67 minutes.
This is with 2 layers of reflectix around the kettle and the lid. Plus a thick towel on top of the lid.
Any thoughts??
sammy33
Well-Known Member
geoff - Some thoughts based on experiences with my unit.
Did you just adjust the wattage? The default temp is 220F. The thermal sensing might be cycling the power with that setting but still getting you to a boil?
If you switch to temp mode, crank it up to 460F with the wattage set at 3500 and that might help. Perhaps even heat faster.
Did you just adjust the wattage? The default temp is 220F. The thermal sensing might be cycling the power with that setting but still getting you to a boil?
If you switch to temp mode, crank it up to 460F with the wattage set at 3500 and that might help. Perhaps even heat faster.
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hmmm . . . been using mine for years and did not know this. Thought that 3500 watts was a constant power draw. No cycling.
Time to get out the amp meter.
Same here. I thought you could set it by wattage OR temperature. Not wattage at a certain temperature.
sammy33
Well-Known Member
I made a spreadsheet based on brewman's formula. Thank you brewman_!
geoff - I get 3,235 watts based on your data. Looks good to me!
I have had a couple of three of homebrews so double check my math.
geoff - I get 3,235 watts based on your data. Looks good to me!
Code:
Gallons 8.00
Start F 64.00
End F 212.00
Diff in F 148.00
lbs H2o 66.80
BTU 9,886.40
Time 67.00
BTU/hr 11,039.81
kwh 3,412.00
Watts 3,235.58
Draw 3,500.00
Efficiency 92.45%I have had a couple of three of homebrews so double check my math.
Ahhhh! I miscalculated the BTU per hour.
So I'm pretty much squeezing as much out as I can.
So I'm pretty much squeezing as much out as I can.
carlk47
Well-Known Member
Hey gang, has anyone been successful recirculating with a pump during the mash with this burner? I'm debating picking up a chugger pump for use to recirculate not only during the mash but also while using my immersion chiller to speed up chilling and whirlpooling. I know it won't hold the temp completely precise due to the 10 degree temp steps of the burner, but as long as it doesn't lose too much heat, i'm good with that.
Anyone tested it out?
Anyone tested it out?
Gallons 8.00
Start F 64.00
End F 212.00
Diff in F 148.00
lbs H2o 66.80
BTU 9,886.40
Time 67.00
BTU/hr 11,039.81 8853.5
kwh 3,412.00
Watts 3,235.58
Draw 3,500.00
Efficiency 92.45%
Ooops. 9886 Btu in 67 minutes would have to be 8854 Btu/hr.
When I figure it, I get 2594 watts for a much more believable 71% efficiency. When I do it in my kitchen with open pots, my efficiency is a little better than 50%.
This is a back of the envelope calculation, I could be off, but I think the right answer is way closer to 70% than 90%.
8 * 3.78541 = 30.28 liters
148/1.8= 82.22 C Degrees
2490 kcal = 10,430,000 joules
67 minutes = 4020 seconds
2594 joules/sec = 2594 watts
Start F 64.00
End F 212.00
Diff in F 148.00
lbs H2o 66.80
BTU 9,886.40
Time 67.00
BTU/hr 11,039.81 8853.5
kwh 3,412.00
Watts 3,235.58
Draw 3,500.00
Efficiency 92.45%
Ooops. 9886 Btu in 67 minutes would have to be 8854 Btu/hr.
When I figure it, I get 2594 watts for a much more believable 71% efficiency. When I do it in my kitchen with open pots, my efficiency is a little better than 50%.
This is a back of the envelope calculation, I could be off, but I think the right answer is way closer to 70% than 90%.
8 * 3.78541 = 30.28 liters
148/1.8= 82.22 C Degrees
2490 kcal = 10,430,000 joules
67 minutes = 4020 seconds
2594 joules/sec = 2594 watts
sammy33
Well-Known Member
I have had a couple of three of homebrews so double check my math.
Wynne-R is correct. The Simcoe SMaSH clouded my mind yesterday.
Code:
Gallons 8.00
Start F 64.00
End F 212.00
Diff inF 148.00
lbs H2o 66.80
BTU 9,886.40
Time 67.00
BTU/hr 8,853.49
kwh 3,412.00
Watts 2,594.81
Draw 3,500.00
Efficiency 74.14%Ok, that's actually good news then. I have room to grow more efficient. Time to troubleshoot.
sammy33
Well-Known Member
Avantco IC 3500 with 10G Megapot 1.2 for comparison as reported by carlk47:
Code:
Gallons 8.00
Start F 60.00
End F 212.00
Diff in F 152.00
lbs H2o 66.80
BTU 10,153.60
Time 67.50
BTU/hr 9,025.42
kwh 3,412.00
Watts 2,645.20
Draw 3,500.00
Efficiency 75.58%sammy33
Well-Known Member
I am still working on a pump. Check out schiersteinbrewing's post and alewhatcuresyou's post in the induction info thread.
I made a spreadsheet based on brewman's formula. Thank you brewman_!
geoff - I get 3,235 watts based on your data. Looks good to me!
Code:Gallons 8.00 Start F 64.00 End F 212.00 Diff in F 148.00 lbs H2o 66.80 BTU 9,886.40 Time 67.00 BTU/hr 11,039.81 kwh 3,412.00 Watts 3,235.58 Draw 3,500.00 Efficiency 92.45%
I have had a couple of three of homebrews so double check my math.
Do you have the spreadsheet you used so I can plug in different test numbers?
EDIT: Ignore this request, I decided not to be lazy and just finished creating the spreadsheet
sammy33
Well-Known Member
geoffm - Just emailed it.
Thanks Wynne-R!
geoffm - Just emailed it.
Thank you kindly!
I put together an online calculator for figuring out the efficiency of your induction cooker or electric element on my blog. Please disregard the fact I hadn't published a blog post since May of last year
http://www.geoffmanning.com/homebrew/wattage-efficiency-calculator/
http://www.geoffmanning.com/homebrew/wattage-efficiency-calculator/
sammy33
Well-Known Member
Cheeseburger. ha ha ha!
Cheeseburger. ha ha ha!
Yeah, my kids favorite part of their favorite movie :fro:
Yes I have it works great, I've been getting 80% to 85% efficiency. I use a Chugger pump. During the mash I have to add some heat every 20-30min to keep temps (90min mash), added this is with out insulation on the kettle and re-circulation running. I tried the lowest setting and the mash temps would rise very slowly. Still working on the process, only have 5 brews on it thus far. One brew I wrapped the kettle and lid in an old comforter during the mash and it held temp much better than the previous no insulation mashes.
I also used the pump for whirlpooling while recirculating through a plate chiller, works very well. I just bought the Jaded Hydra IC with their whirlpool arm, haven't had a chance to try it yet, got tired of cleaning the plate chiller.
I have a quick question. I was about to do a 1 gallon BIAB and pulled out my all-clad pot that I swore was 3 gallons; it is 2. My batch need 2.32 gallons of water and of course that isn't going to work let alone adding the grain bag.
I have a 5 gallon Polarware economy kettle that I just set on top of the induction burner, added 1/2 gallon of water and it heated immediately.
The pot is no where near magnetic. Is there any issue with using a pot that isn't magnetic, but heats just fine, and is stainless on the induction burner? The manual, all one page of it, says use induction-ready cookware. I assume it is because something that isn't induction-ready is not going to heat. However, if it heats then it heats, right? Anyone know any reason why not to use the pot? Like is there some weird safety issue?
Edit: geoff answered my PM because like an annoying newbie I PM'd him as well. Brew day continues ... I mean after work, right? FWIW, anyone who may ask, geoff didn't see an issue with it as our Bayou classic pots aren't magnetic and they do work.
I have a 5 gallon Polarware economy kettle that I just set on top of the induction burner, added 1/2 gallon of water and it heated immediately.
The pot is no where near magnetic. Is there any issue with using a pot that isn't magnetic, but heats just fine, and is stainless on the induction burner? The manual, all one page of it, says use induction-ready cookware. I assume it is because something that isn't induction-ready is not going to heat. However, if it heats then it heats, right? Anyone know any reason why not to use the pot? Like is there some weird safety issue?
Edit: geoff answered my PM because like an annoying newbie I PM'd him as well. Brew day continues ... I mean after work, right?
FWIW, anyone who may ask, geoff didn't see an issue with it as our Bayou classic pots aren't magnetic and they do work.
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singybrue
Well-Known Member
I'm using a Concord stainless pot that doesn't pass the magnet test and it works fine. (other than this extra limb that's sprouting from my neck)
Edit: geoff answered my PM because like an annoying newbie I PM'd him as well. Brew day continues ... I mean after work, right?
Exactly
According to calculations, I am only utilizing about 2200 watts of the 3500 in bringing 8 gallons from 64 to 212 in 67 minutes in my non-magnetic pot. That is with a double layer of reflectix insulation.
Hello is going to run a test of the same water volume in his induction capable pot vs the Bayou Classic pot (1044) that is not magnetic. Trying to test if the magnetic pot heats the water faster than the non magnetic pot.
If anyone else has this ability, would be great if you could test as well. I only have the non-magnetic BC that works fine.
My Bayou Classic 1040 pot is magnetic, I'll run a plain water test and post the results.
Test results:
Bayou Classic 1040 Pot (magnetic). Pot is uncovered and uninsulated. (going to run tests covered, insulated, and covered with insulation).
0 min 70deg
5 min 88deg
10min 100deg
15min 110deg
20min 120deg
25min 130deg
30min 140deg
35min 150deg
40min 162deg
45min 170deg
50min 178deg
55min 186deg
60min 196deg
65min 200deg
70min 208deg
75min 212deg
3500 watt cooktop
134deg difference
8 gallons/66.8 lbs
btu 8951.2
btu/hr 7160.96
watts 2098.76
60% efficient
Test results:
Bayou Classic 1040 Pot (magnetic). Pot is uncovered and uninsulated. (going to run tests covered, insulated, and covered with insulation).
0 min 70deg
5 min 88deg
10min 100deg
15min 110deg
20min 120deg
25min 130deg
30min 140deg
35min 150deg
40min 162deg
45min 170deg
50min 178deg
55min 186deg
60min 196deg
65min 200deg
70min 208deg
75min 212deg
3500 watt cooktop
134deg difference
8 gallons/66.8 lbs
btu 8951.2
btu/hr 7160.96
watts 2098.76
60% efficient
Exactly
According to calculations, I am only utilizing about 2200 watts of the 3500 in bringing 8 gallons from 64 to 212 in 67 minutes in my non-magnetic pot. That is with a double layer of reflectix insulation.
Hello is going to run a test of the same water volume in his induction capable pot vs the Bayou Classic pot (1044) that is not magnetic. Trying to test if the magnetic pot heats the water faster than the non magnetic pot.
If anyone else has this ability, would be great if you could test as well. I only have the non-magnetic BC that works fine.
I'm going to do that while I chill my wort from my gallon batch. For sake of accurate data, I'm a girl. I think the test results will be the same...if not better because girls boil water better than boys.
I'm going to do that while I chill my wort from my gallon batch. For sake of accurate data, I'm a girl. I think the test results will be the same...if not better because girls boil water better than boys.
Sorry
sammy33
Well-Known Member
Induction cooktops seem to have a mystique regarding their operation. For me that is part of the appeal. An exotic technology for brewing. 
Magnetic or non magnetic kettles may well have an impact on the efficiency? Obviously some of the non-magnetic kettles work. Perhaps we can gather enough data to make a cursory conclusion?
For comparison here is what I get with my 1800w Vollrath Mirage cooktop and the Tramontina tri-clad induction ready kettle with reflectix insulation and lid on during heating.
Magnetic or non magnetic kettles may well have an impact on the efficiency? Obviously some of the non-magnetic kettles work. Perhaps we can gather enough data to make a cursory conclusion?
For comparison here is what I get with my 1800w Vollrath Mirage cooktop and the Tramontina tri-clad induction ready kettle with reflectix insulation and lid on during heating.
Code:
Gallons 4.50
Start F 61.00
End F 212.00
Diff in F 151.00
lbs H2o 37.58
BTU 5,673.83
Time 62.00
BTU/hr 5,490.80
kwh 3,412.00
Watts 1,609.26
Draw 1,800.00
Efficiency 89.40%
