Why not pulverize your grain?

[Weezy]

They do mill the grains but if a finer mill or crush will give me more flavor from the grain without tannin production I think it could be good.

Tannin extraction due to fine milling is a myth. pH and temps out of bounds is what leads to tannin extraction.

Finer milling isn't going to give you "more flavor* either.

 

[ChelisHubby]

Tannin extraction due to fine milling is a myth. pH and temps out of bounds is what leads to tannin extraction.

Finer milling isn't going to give you "more flavor* either.

Weezy Will I get conversion from milling the grains finer than the home brew store or am I wasting time?

 

[Weezy]

Finer milling leads to quicker conversions and higher efficiency. Your other post said you use extract with steeping grains, so you're not mashing your grains. You're not adding a base malt to supply enzymes to convert available starches from the crystal malts. Steeping simply extracts already converted sugars (from the malting process) and any unsalted starches left over from the crystal malts. So you will only really see the higher efficiency part.

 

[govner1]

Tannin extraction due to fine milling is a myth. pH and temps out of bounds is what leads to tannin extraction.

Finer milling isn't going to give you "more flavor* either.

Finer milling isn't going to give you "more flavor* either.[/QUOTE]
According to "Brewing", 2nd Edition, by Lewis & Young-pages 206-207-
"Milling...must achieve two objectives: particle size reductionand particle size control....one primary objective go milling: to leave the malt husk as intact as possible. An intact husk, including absence of shredded husk, helps wort separation in lautering and may reduce extraction of tannins and other undesirable components.
The objective of milling is to produce crushed malt with the ideal spectrum of particles for extract production and recovery. Small particles easily yield extract, but large ones allow faster wort separation."

 

[g-star]

Tannin extraction due to fine milling is a myth.

Curious as to how you can make such a blanket statement. All benchmark brewing texts suggest otherwise.

 

[beavers]

Mash times drop and efficiencies rise as it's easier to extract starches from smaller bits and get those starches converted sooner. It only take moments to convert the starches to sugar. The time is in getting the starches out of the grain.

To me, this also seems to imply that if you're going for a specific mash temperature for body/fermentability reasons, we'd better hit that temperature immediately on strike. Say we're targeting 150F but actually hit 154F. The alpha amylase is going to do it's work very quickly, and there'll be few starches left for the beta amylase to convert.

Does that follow? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the way these enzymes work together? Also, doesn't conversion time vary with temperature anyway, as well as differ between alpha and beta?

 

[blizz81]

According to "Brewing", 2nd Edition, by Lewis & Young-pages 206-207-
"Milling...must achieve two objectives: particle size reductionand particle size control....one primary objective go milling: to leave the malt husk as intact as possible. An intact husk, including absence of shredded husk, helps wort separation in lautering and may reduce extraction of tannins and other undesirable components.
The objective of milling is to produce crushed malt with the ideal spectrum of particles for extract production and recovery. Small particles easily yield extract, but large ones allow faster wort separation."

(added emphasis = mine)


Also, from personal experience, I have a lot more husk material intact at .028mm + conditioned grain than I did at .038mm + dry grain. If you aren't conditioning your grain and you're arguing that an aggressive crush leads to pulverized dust which may lead to tannin extraction (says some of the textbooks of old), I suggest you try it and see how your grain bed ends up. I for one was surprised at how much fluffy husk material remains even in a tight crush.


As always, experiment and brew in the way that works best for you!

 

[helibrewer]

Not all of them are. The first time I heard of a commercial brewery doing a 15 minutes mash (on the brewing network) I took notice. And Alaskan Brewing has a device that compresses their mash, effectively "squeezing" the bag, so to speak.
P.S. Don't be a ******.

This is called a "mash filter", many big breweries use them. They use hammer mills too that create a flour since with a mash filter, no husk filter bed is required.

 

[govner1]

To me, this also seems to imply that if you're going for a specific mash temperature for body/fermentability reasons, we'd better hit that temperature immediately on strike. Say we're targeting 150F but actually hit 154F. The alpha amylase is going to do it's work very quickly, and there'll be few starches left for the beta amylase to convert.



Does that follow? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the way these enzymes work together? Also, doesn't conversion time vary with temperature anyway, as well as differ between alpha and beta?

The max temp for beta amylase is about 149°F. Above that denatured the enzyme. Once denatured it cannot recover.


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[wobdee]

The max temp for beta amylase is about 149°F. Above that denatured the enzyme. Once denatured it cannot recover.


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But how long does it take to denature? Is it instantaneous or does it keep working for awhile?

 

[RM-MN]

But how long does it take to denature? Is it instantaneous or does it keep working for awhile?

It's not instantaneous but as the temperature goes up it denatures faster. That's why you can get a dry beer by mashing low and a malty beer by mashing high. As the temperature goes up the beta amylase works faster but denatures very quickly so you get more unfermentable sugars. Finding out just how long it takes is difficult. I've been searching the web but all I find is what I wrote.

 

[wobdee]

It's not instantaneous but as the temperature goes up it denatures faster. That's why you can get a dry beer by mashing low and a malty beer by mashing high. As the temperature goes up the beta amylase works faster but denatures very quickly so you get more unfermentable sugars. Finding out just how long it takes is difficult. I've been searching the web but all I find is what I wrote.

I did find a BYO article that stated Beta will denature in 40-60 min at 149 degrees.

I think I like the idea of doing a two step mash hitting both enzymes optimal ranges. Then you can experiment with differing times at those temps for different beer characters.

 

[wobdee]

Here's a nice graph
http://missionarybrewer.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/enzyme_activity_one_hour_mash.jpg

 

[Owly055]

I did find a BYO article that stated Beta will denature in 40-60 min at 149 degrees.

I think I like the idea of doing a two step mash hitting both enzymes optimal ranges. Then you can experiment with differing times at those temps for different beer characters.

You can then...... at least in theory, hit the low 150's and get complete conversion with Alpha...... Which only takes about 5 minutes with a fine crush, then "splash down" to the mid 140's to let Beta do it's work. There is also absolutely no law that says "thou shalt not add amylase"..... Keep some around. It's cheap in bulk, and will save your bacon if you overshoot. I've done it......... it works!!

H.W.

 

[ChelisHubby]

Gentlemen at what Temp would you recommend a Extract brewer soaking his special grains? My kits say 170 for 30 minutes would I be better off at 150 or what would you recommend?

 

[govner1]

Gentlemen at what Temp would you recommend a Extract brewer soaking his special grains? My kits say 170 for 30 minutes would I be better off at 150 or what would you recommend?

You're forgetting that the "work" of mashing has already been done when you use LME or DME.
Remember the specialty grains have essentially no diastatic power so essentially no or very little enzyme activity. They add color, body, & other attributes to your beer. Very little if any fermentables.


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[lush]

I've been doing BIAB for several batches now. I find that with an iodine test it shows conversion within the first 20 minutes usually. I've been crushing with a two roller mill, the lower roller at about .024.

I also do a dunk sparge. It helped me take my efficiency up from below 80%. I think the dunk sparge really helps when crushing fine. The grains seem to hold a lot of liquid in with a fine crush. It didn't seem as necessary when I was using store crushed grains.

Another consequence of BIAB in my situation is that I loose a lot of efficiency to trub in the brew kettle. I usually leave about 1 1/2 gallons of hops, hot break, and whatever whirlflock settles out when I transfer to the fermenter. This brings my brew house efficiency back down to the low 70s. I've never used a conventional mash tun, so I have no way to compare the two.

The question I always wonder, is there any benefit of mashing longer anyway? Once i get the efficiency I'm looking for, (which is usually just under 90%) is there any benefit to a longer mash? More flavor? Other compounds? I've been doing the full hour just in case, but I'd love to shave some time off my brew days.

Check this out dude!

http://brulosophy.com/2014/09/01/does-mash-length-matter-exbeeriment-results/

 

[NeoBrew]

That's an interesting read. I have no skills in statistics, but given the small sample size I wonder if you could even call those results even?

 

[lush]

Make that blog a weekly read. The guy is honest and thorough.


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[cannman]

Check this out dude!

http://brulosophy.com/2014/09/01/does-mash-length-matter-exbeeriment-results/

Fantastic read. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[ChelisHubby]

You're forgetting that the "work" of mashing has already been done when you use LME or DME.
Remember the specialty grains have essentially no diastatic power so essentially no or very little enzyme activity. They add color, body, & other attributes to your beer. Very little if any fermentables.


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So does the 170 seem to be good I have been going 165 or less for more time . Have I been wasting time ?

 

[govner1]

No I don't think you're wasting your time. Most of the recipes I've seen for partial mash say to hold the temp around 150 for steeping the specialty grains. Again, the sugars in the majority of these grains have been caramelized (Maillard reaction) by the kilning process used. You want to extract these for flavor , color, etc., just like steeping a bag of tea.


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[jbaysurfer]

^ He's not doing a partial mash though (If I'm not mistaken!) there's no base grain in there. It's all specialty grain. No need to stick to the conversion range in that case, you're just extracting flavors and unfermentables.