Why no love for bleach?

[xico]

The fear of bleach comes from it's misuse. A lot of people make a VERY strong solution of it. That is not required.

I would have to research the recipe, but I believe that the owner of Five-Star Chemicals, the maker of Star-San, has recommended Bleach. IIRC he recommended adding a small amount of acid to the bleach mixture to form a no-rinse sanitizer. The amount was something like 1 TBSP bleach per 5 gallons of water. Can't recall the amount of acid.

I shy away from it for the reason above. Not all bleaches are the same and some contain dioxins. I don't know my way around the types and have steered away from them.

I don't mean to challenge friend, but I would be curious if you could elaborate on the specifics of using bleach and acid together. This has always been a no no due to the potential release of chlorine gas that I have read. It also seems like it would neutralize the effects of both compounds. I would very much like to expand my knowledge in this. I would have thought you would run your bleach solution, a quick rinse, and then an acid to neutralize residual compounds.

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

Also, in case it isn't known, chlorine bleach will eat your steel. I've seen kegs left with bleach turn into sieves with tons of holes chewed right through. If you use a bleach on your steel for a short period, you need to passivate with a nitric acid solution to rinse the exposed iron from the surface afterwards.

 

[Homercidal]

I shy away from it for the reason above. Not all bleaches are the same and some contain dioxins. I don't know my way around the types and have steered away from them.

I don't mean to challenge friend, but I would be curious if you could elaborate on the specifics of using bleach and acid together. This has always been a no no due to the potential release of chlorine gas that I have read. It also seems like it would neutralize the effects of both compounds. I would very much like to expand my knowledge in this. I would have thought you would run your bleach solution, a quick rinse, and then an acid to neutralize residual compounds.

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

Also, in case it isn't known, chlorine bleach will eat your steel. I've seen kegs left with bleach turn into sieves with tons of holes chewed right through. If you use a bleach on your steel for a short period, you need to passivate with a nitric acid solution to rinse the exposed iron from the surface afterwards.

I don't have the recipe for the bleach/acid that Charlie Tally recommended in a podcast (As I already stated). You can probably find the podcast. I think it was from either The Brewing Network, or Basic Brewing Radio.

I believe the danger form fumes is quite low due to the very small amounts being diluted in water.

As is the case with any dangerous chemicals, read all you can and be careful. It's fairly common knowledge that bleach can be dangerous (But Sodium Hydroxide is too, but more so.)

 

[Brad2287]

I shy away from it for the reason above. Not all bleaches are the same and some contain dioxins. I don't know my way around the types and have steered away from them.

I don't mean to challenge friend, but I would be curious if you could elaborate on the specifics of using bleach and acid together. This has always been a no no due to the potential release of chlorine gas that I have read. It also seems like it would neutralize the effects of both compounds. I would very much like to expand my knowledge in this. I would have thought you would run your bleach solution, a quick rinse, and then an acid to neutralize residual compounds.

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

Also, in case it isn't known, chlorine bleach will eat your steel. I've seen kegs left with bleach turn into sieves with tons of holes chewed right through. If you use a bleach on your steel for a short period, you need to passivate with a nitric acid solution to rinse the exposed iron from the surface afterwards.

There is an equilibrium between hypochlorous acid and the hypochlorite ion that is pH dependant. Hypochlorous acid is a stronger disinfectant but is also less stable. You do need to be very mindful of the end pH. If the ph is to low you see an equilibrium between hypochlorous acid and chlorine, releasing chlorine gas. Whether that amount is a worry in a dilute solution would depend on multiple factors (dilution, amount, airflow, volume of room). There are multiple sources covering what the equilibrium of the miltiple species will be at any given pH.

This link covers it decently well.
http://www.hach.com/DisinfectionSeries02

 

[Photopilot]

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

And I thought bleaching my clothes was my biggest concern when cleaning my brewing equipment. If I have to wear a hazmat gear to clean my brew gear I am considering alternative cleaning methods.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

And I thought bleaching my clothes was my biggest concern when cleaning my brewing equipment. If I have to wear a hazmat gear to clean my brew gear I am considering alternative cleaning methods.

Me and some of the guys bleaching the kiddy pool after an "accident"

 

[BentBrewer]

I don't have the recipe for the bleach/acid that Charlie Tally recommended in a podcast

My saved micronotes from said podcast:

1oz bleach to 5 gal water, then 1oz white vinegar.
30 seconds contact time
No rinsing required

 

[jjeffers09]

Okay there are a TON of options out there that result in the same level of sanitation as bleach. But without the issues of bleach. QUATs and Peracetic acid or Isopropyl Alcohol 97% is great and easier to rinse... Hydrogen peroxide is also great, which you have to use to make peracetic acid at home. There is a lot of advantages to having a method of using different sanitizers a few times a year to help clean up everything to "brand-new" like conditions, but plastics are cheap because they can be replaced.

 

[mabrungard]

While I don't use bleach for everyday cleaning, it can be a useful addition to your microbe-fighting arsenal. In some ways, its better than Iodophor. However, Iodophor is part of my regular disinfectant rotation since it won't leave my beers with chlorophenols. But sometimes, you have to go nuclear!

Due to the effect of water pH on chlorine effectiveness, acidifying your water prior to adding your bleach is a very good idea. It turns out that the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water is perfect for calculating an appropriate dose of acid for your water...as long as you know your water's alkalinity. By the way, distilled vinegar is 5% acetic acid. That is an option in Water Acidification calculator.

PS: Lorena, I can see that I'd be in trouble if I brewed around you!

 

[xico]

And I thought bleaching my clothes was my biggest concern when cleaning my brewing equipment. If I have to wear a hazmat gear to clean my brew gear I am considering alternative cleaning methods.

It depends on your equipment. Systems I work on can be upwards to 45 gallon vessels (some conicals). Scrubbing is not an option and chemicals do the trick.

I don't see why homebrewers would need to use lye on the regular. I do a deep clean every 20-25 brews. I use a common brewers wash for brewday cleanups and only use goggles for that. I didn't clarify that earlier. Gearing up is for the occasional 15-minute soak-circ of 75 C water with sodium hydroxide and run through the lines and nothing but steel (and a little beer stone) is left behind. Silicone hoses return to the color they were when I bought them. For me personally, extending the years of my plumbing alone makes it worth it to me.

I mention safety gear because that should probably be used in the context of bleach as well. I agree with using alternatives for regular brewday cleanups but the homebrew stuff doesn't deep clean like lye and then phosphoric/nitric acid runs do.

 

[atoughram]

DO NOT POUR THE VINEGAR OUT ON YOUR LAWN AFTER YOUR DONE....

dont ask mt how I know this...

It's better and longer lasting than Roundup...

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

there are times and good reasons to use bleach, 3 - 10 gallon batches of beer being dumped, thats a good reason, had it bad and my beloved starsans regiment didn't help but bleaching everything that beer touches did, so I can say use it at least once a year for best practice it might just save your beer

and defiantly bleach your fermentors, spoiled yeast is the worst

 

[mabrungard]

As pointed out by a respected contributor on the AHA forum, StarSan is NOT effective against ALL beer spoiling organisms. While I LOVE StarSan, I do alternate its use with Iodophor. Both Iodophor and bleach are effective against wild yeast and spores.

If you are a StarSan user, do weigh this advice carefully. Use an alternate sanitizer on occasion! Bleach is OK, as long as you take the additional precautions to get ALL the residual chlorine out of the equipment. There is no such worry with Iodophor.

 

[Homercidal]

DO NOT POUR THE VINEGAR OUT ON YOUR LAWN AFTER YOUR DONE....

dont ask mt how I know this...

It's better and longer lasting than Roundup...

I'll remember this when I get around to taking care of the weeds popping up in my patio.

 

[xico]

As pointed out by a respected contributor on the AHA forum, StarSan is NOT effective against ALL beer spoiling organisms. While I LOVE StarSan, I do alternate its use with Iodophor. Both Iodophor and bleach are effective against wild yeast and spores.

If you are a StarSan user, do weigh this advice carefully. Use an alternate sanitizer on occasion! Bleach is OK, as long as you take the additional precautions to get ALL the residual chlorine out of the equipment. There is no such worry with Iodophor.

Thanks for the advice. I had doubted that the compounds would be effective against everything but hadn't heard or seen anything to back it up. Some friends making, ahem, farm fuel, share their bounty with me and I was considering shaking my carboys with a couple ounces of that stuff inside on occasion. In the meantime I will pick up a bottle of Iodophor today.. Always appreciate your input!

 

[sonofred]

Back in the dark ages, all we used was bleach. Just rinse well and forget about it. Never had any infected batches and never had any off flavor from using it.

 

[thekraken]

I don't have the recipe for the bleach/acid that Charlie Tally recommended in a podcast (As I already stated). You can probably find the podcast. I think it was from either The Brewing Network, or Basic Brewing Radio.

I believe the danger form fumes is quite low due to the very small amounts being diluted in water.

As is the case with any dangerous chemicals, read all you can and be careful. It's fairly common knowledge that bleach can be dangerous (But Sodium Hydroxide is too, but more so.)

March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2007

 

[Yooper]

As pointed out by a respected contributor on the AHA forum, StarSan is NOT effective against ALL beer spoiling organisms. While I LOVE StarSan, I do alternate its use with Iodophor. Both Iodophor and bleach are effective against wild yeast and spores.

If you are a StarSan user, do weigh this advice carefully. Use an alternate sanitizer on occasion! Bleach is OK, as long as you take the additional precautions to get ALL the residual chlorine out of the equipment. There is no such worry with Iodophor.

That is a good point. I keep Iodophor on hand and do use bleach occasionally (even with clothes on at times!).

Iodophor is cheap and easy to use, and effective.

Keep more than one tool in your arsenal, and change up the sanitizers occasionally to keep microbes on their toes (so to speak...........)

 

[Photopilot]

As pointed out by a respected contributor on the AHA forum, StarSan is NOT effective against ALL beer spoiling organisms. While I LOVE StarSan, I do alternate its use with Iodophor. Both Iodophor and bleach are effective against wild yeast and spores.

If you are a StarSan user, do weigh this advice carefully. Use an alternate sanitizer on occasion! Bleach is OK, as long as you take the additional precautions to get ALL the residual chlorine out of the equipment. There is no such worry with Iodophor.

When you say alternate star san with an alternative cleaner because Star San might not miss "wild yeats, etc". If Star San misses these why use it at all? Do the wild yeasts live through a Star San application and eventually the population is large enough to matter, but an occasional iodophor sanitisation will kill off the wild yeasts so Star San can do its thing?

Do you alternate Star San and Iodophor every other brew session? I used to use Iodophor and have some sitting around of unknown age in my fridge. Does it ever go bad? I might take medicine past its expiration date but won't put my beer at the same risk as my health.

 

[Shockerengr]

When you say alternate star san with an alternative cleaner because Star San might not miss "wild yeats, etc". If Star San misses these why use it at all? Do the wild yeasts live through a Star San application and eventually the population is large enough to matter, but an occasional iodophor sanitisation will kill off the wild yeasts so Star San can do its thing?

Do you alternate Star San and Iodophor every other brew session? I used to use Iodophor and have some sitting around of unknown age in my fridge. Does it ever go bad? I might take medicine past its expiration date but won't put my beer at the same risk as my health.

In general, yeast are tolerant of low pH environments, so acid based sanitizers can be less effective on them. This trait is sometimes used to "wash" yeast slurry of bacteria by adjusting the pH below what the bacteria survive, but not so low to kill the yeast off.

Using a varied sanitization protocol helps because different sanitizers have different strengths, esp when put to real world use. Changing things up every now and then helps ensure nothing is slipping by.

Starsan has a number of advantages for ease of use, including a low contact time, which is why it's so popular. Low quantities of wild yeast typically won't have a significant effect on most beers compared to bacteria, so it's a less critical consideration.

As for Idophor, it will eventually break down and lose effectiveness, but in it's undiluted form, it's very stable and should last a long time. heat and light will tend to accelerate aging, so the idophor you have is likely still good. Test strips are available to check for the iodine content of the dilute solution to see if it is effective.

 

[jjeffers09]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0061V9VB6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

128oz makes 256 of QUAT sani-water for a lifetime of pico-brewery sanitizer. That and star San will take care of your gram-neg bacteria that your quat wont. So clean, rinse, quat sani, star san, air dry. and you should look better than chlorine

 

[SeraW]

I use bleach occasionally on my plastic fermenters. In particular, I always use a bleach go for my small ones whenever I change fermentation - rice wine for cider, or after Sauerkraut, for example. But other times I use Star San. They both work if you're careful.

(I am also glad to see I'm not the only one to brew in the nude when necessary!)

 

[WhoDatDad78]

I was under the impression oxiclean is for cleaning not sanitizing.

Activated oxygen is for both sanitizing and cleaning, it is used to sanitize the back of ambulances. Assuming Oxyclean actually has activated oxygen in it, it should work.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Okay there are a TON of options out there that result in the same level of sanitation as bleach. But without the issues of bleach. QUATs and Peracetic acid or Isopropyl Alcohol 97% is great and easier to rinse... Hydrogen peroxide is also great, which you have to use to make peracetic acid at home. There is a lot of advantages to having a method of using different sanitizers a few times a year to help clean up everything to "brand-new" like conditions, but plastics are cheap because they can be replaced.

I would have to give a thumbs up to PAA (Peracetic Acid) which I have used since since working in a commercial brewery. Chlorine can be a big no no, not because of it's effect on stainless but because even a tiny residue can ruin certain beers. Wyeast 1318 in particular can develop very unpleasant phenols just from minute traces of chlorine.

 

[mabrungard]

While I don't doubt that WY1318 beers would develop unpleasant phenols with any chlorine in the water, the reaction with chlorine is primarily with the organic compounds in the wort. Any beer will suffer this issue. But it is possible that this yeast further compounds the off-flavors with some sort of fermentation by-product.

 

[Merak5]

I started with bleach 25 years ago, using it now, cheap, effective, doesn't take much. Never had an off flavor that I was aware of. 1 T per gallon per the USDA, I sanitize one or two days ahead, drain well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Back in the dark ages, all we used was bleach. Just rinse well and forget about it. Never had any infected batches and never had any off flavor from using it.

I was an active participant in the dark ages of bleach, but I have switched to Iodophor.

If you have the ability to rinse bleached equipment sufficiently with RO there should be little chance for rinse induced contamination. But personally I now try to avoid the contact hazard of bleach, as well as breathing in the fumes.

 

[mabrungard]

I started with bleach 25 years ago, using it now, cheap, effective, doesn't take much. Never had an off flavor that I was aware of. 1 T per gallon per the USDA, I sanitize one or two days ahead, drain well.

That's great, if it works for you. Having a vessel or equipment open to atmospheric contact for a day or two is an opportunity for recontamination. I prefer using a sanitizer that can be used immediately prior to equipment use.

By the way, I'm continually amazed by people that are blind to the taste of chlorophenols in beer. Maybe its because they like the taste of phenoly scotch or haven't had the fault pointed out?

 

[Miraculix]

I know I've shared this story before but it fits here............

I was brewing one day and noticed that my one fermenter (plastic) didn't look as pristine as I like. I decided to give it bleach/water bath while I was waiting for my wort to boil.

But then I realized I loved the clothes I was wearing, so I took them off so I wouldn't accidentally get bleach on them.

I cleaned the fermenter and rinsed it well, but nearly got a boil over so was over at my brewstand, stirring my wort, when my husband walked in the brewery. He looked at me, sort of puzzled.

I said, "Oh! I guess you must be wondering why I'm brewing stark naked!"

Knowing me so well after all these years, He shrugged and said, "No, not really" and walked away.

Later that day, after the final clean up, I asked him if he wanted to know why I was totally naked while I was brewing. I explained about the cleaning with bleach, and he didn't act like it was weird to have your wife brewing 11 gallons of IPA totally naked.

If I would see my girlfriend doing that, that day would be the day I instantly propose to her

 

[Merak5]

Mabrungard, now I think I am tasting it in my last batch.

 

[ChefRex]

I use bleach occasionally on my plastic fermenters. In particular, I always use a bleach go for my small ones whenever I change fermentation - rice wine for cider, or after Sauerkraut, for example. But other times I use Star San. They both work if you're careful.

(I am also glad to see I'm not the only one to brew in the nude when necessary!)

Pictures or as they say it didn't happen