Why no love for bleach?

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JONNYROTTEN

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I had an infection scare and was thinking of doing a nuclear bleach bomb on all my plastics.After doing some looking around I came across a lot of "bleach will never touch my equipment".Others of course have done it.This time of the year I can simply stick the equipment in the sun and no more bleach.I star san all my stuff before every brew day but my plastics are getting old and 24 bleach bomb couldn't hurt.Nothing to back it up but I'm thinking a super potent bleach soak might get in there a little deeper than Star san.Wondering why many dismiss bleach when it kills everything,is cheap, and dissipates naturally?
 
Starsan is just a sanitizer - use something like PBW to clean your buckets. Bleach CAN be used and CAN be safe if you rinse the ever living carp out of your buckets when done to ensure there is NO remnants of bleach left, but why chance it when there are other products on the market that work just as well and are meant to be food safe?
 
Way back when in the homebrewing dark ages all we had was bleach for sanitizer; we all used it back then and you can use it now. Nowadays, its just starsan is so much easier and works just as well for the application.

Now for a bleach bomb, that is a different story; my assumption is that you wouldn't be doing this every single time.
 
same reason why you dont wash your hands with bleach after using the bathroom or something. There are much better options out there
 
m00ps said:
same reason why you dont wash your hands with bleach after using the bathroom or something. There are much better options out there
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False equivalency.

The idea behind a bleach bomb is to immerse all of your equipment to make sure you kill off any spoilage organisms hiding in the nooks/crannies of the equipment. Given the volume needed to do this it may be cheaper to use bleach (and rinse well); than to use that much StarSan.
 
Bleach rules and I use it exclusively but it's a pretty unpopular opinion. Some people hate stuff that's cheap and works. My method is opposed most vehemently by people who have never tried it or people who used way too strong of a dilution. If you use 15ML bleach per 1 gallon water it is entirely a "no rinse" dilution. I take care to try and drip dry my fermenter and gear to minimize the amount I expose my beer to. I fully admit there are better sanitizers from an ease of use standpoint, but I have literally never have an infection because I can afford to fill the entire 7 gallon fermenter with a bleach dilution every time I use it! All of my gear gets soaked for extended periods. Using sprayed on Star San solutions doesn't give great coverage and has very small amounts of contact time the way most people are using it, which IMO makes them more prone to infections than soaking their stuff. Some crucial things to note is that you *technically* need an hour soaking time, though this is a rule I have frequently overlooked. Also, it will give some vinyl tubing a cloudy coloration if you soak it too long, and it's corrosive to stainless or steel fittings in long soaks (multiple days in duration). You need to use STANDARD bleach not the double strength extra concentrated stuff. A little goes a very very long way.
 
The fear of bleach comes from it's misuse. A lot of people make a VERY strong solution of it. That is not required.

I would have to research the recipe, but I believe that the owner of Five-Star Chemicals, the maker of Star-San, has recommended Bleach. IIRC he recommended adding a small amount of acid to the bleach mixture to form a no-rinse sanitizer. The amount was something like 1 TBSP bleach per 5 gallons of water. Can't recall the amount of acid.

Note that this is a no-rinse solution, so he is recommending actually leaving the product on the equipment. The dilution of bleach to water is small, and the amount being added to 5 gallons of wort is VERY small.

In the OP's case I would not hesitate to use a strong bleach solution, but I would research using it combined with an acid (safely) to improve it's effectiveness, as per the owner of Five Star Chemical's recommendation.

Afterward, I'd air the equipment out completely and then continue to use the sanitizer I've been using all along.

Cleaning your equipment is as important as sanitizing it. Make sure to get in all the nooks and crannies, and that includes spigots, airlocks, threads, rims, etc. If there is any crud in there, the bacteria can effectively hide from the sanitizer, only to emerge later in the beer.
 
The responses are my feelings also.If it works why not use it.Plastic is cheap but if I can make it like new again why not.Ive throw away more than a few buckets thinking If it gets a scratch its a goner.If the bacteria have a path to the nooks and crannies so does the bleach to kill it...I'm bleach bombin the crap out of my stuff and see where it gets me.
 
I would be careful with soaking the plastics in a strong solution too many times, especially the soft plastics. Bleach will start to degrade the plastics and cause it to start cracking. The problem would then be exasperated with more cracks for bacteria and dirt to hide. I would use a strong solution (~20%) but I wouldn't go much higher than that. It would be a waste in bleach and put undue stress on the plastics. We use 20% bleach in the lab when we want to sanitize non-autoclavable items (ie sprayers) between experiments.
 
Bleach has a place, but you've got to be careful with it as it can degrade equipment if left on to long without dilution or applied to strong.

The chlorine will react with metals and some plastics and rubbers. Pinholes and leaks in stainless are often the result of chlorine exposure.

Chlorine can also react with yeast-derived phenols to produce chlorophenols which produced the 'band-aid' off flavors.

Used properly, it can be a great sanitizer, but there are other options that are more forgiving of errors.

I've used it rarely, and it's been useful, but it's far from a goto for me.
 
m00ps said:
same reason why you dont wash your hands with bleach after using the bathroom or something. There are much better options out there
Click to expand...

My mom used to force me to soak my stinky athlete's feet in bleach solution because we were so poor we had to pass our shoes down through four brothers and I was a grubby, filthy child who refused to wash myself.

If I ever have to plead insanity for something, I'm using that. :rockin:
 
Photopilot said:
Because I like the color of my clothes just the way they are. Every time I use bleach I ruin some clothes. There are other options less destructive.
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Spill some Iodophor or Star San and see what it makes your clothes look like! Any of these concentrated cleaners will wreck your clothes, counter tops, etc.


There is lots of talk in here of "mistakes" but what's so hard about putting 15ml of bleach in a gallon of water? We're brewing beer here, we'd better be able to measure things correctly.
 
Jim311 said:
Spill some Iodophor or Star San and see what it makes your clothes look like! Any of these concentrated cleaners will wreck your clothes, counter tops, etc.
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I used plenty of bleach back in the day. The problem with bleach is it is even in its diluted form it has the ability to ruin clothes, etch metal and other fouls. The other things you mention have never caused any of the issues for me. Maybe because they are more concentrated and come in smaller neater packages, I tend not to get it on me. While bleach is cheap, so is unscented Oxyclean compared to replacing a shirt.

Whome am I kidding, I am still going to wear the shirt but be pissed at myself everytime i do for using bleach that day.
 
JONNYROTTEN said:
I was under the impression oxiclean is for cleaning not sanitizing.
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They go hand in hand. I don't think you can sanitize something that is not clean. Bleach is one thing you can use for both. I am assuming if you have an infection issue cleanliness should be your primary concern. If your vessels are clean a splash of any sanitizer should do the trick.

I use a variety of different cleaners, not for any particular reason just because I have them around. But Star-san is my go to sanitizer. I ordered a small container about a decade ago and the mail order company sent me a big one instead. I am about half-way done with it.

The one exception to this is if I had a recurring sanitation problem. I would consider going over the entire brew area and all my equipment once to try to kill off whatever is ruining my beer from the premises.

In responding to this thread I realize why I hate bleach so much. One of my favorite kilts has a stain on it that I am pretty sure is from bleach. I'll never forgive the evil substance.
 
In my opinion, a strong bleach solution is the only solution to a stubborn krausen ring stuck on the inside of a glass carboy. Scrubbing can only do so much, but bleach will get that carboy spotless.

Of course, after I bleach my carboys, I then rinse them until there is no odor, and go back to sanitizing with star san.
 
Photopilot said:
Because I like the color of my clothes just the way they are. Every time I use bleach I ruin some clothes. There are other options less destructive.
Click to expand...

I know I've shared this story before but it fits here............

I was brewing one day and noticed that my one fermenter (plastic) didn't look as pristine as I like. I decided to give it bleach/water bath while I was waiting for my wort to boil.

But then I realized I loved the clothes I was wearing, so I took them off so I wouldn't accidentally get bleach on them.

I cleaned the fermenter and rinsed it well, but nearly got a boil over so was over at my brewstand, stirring my wort, when my husband walked in the brewery. He looked at me, sort of puzzled.

I said, "Oh! I guess you must be wondering why I'm brewing stark naked!"

Knowing me so well after all these years, He shrugged and said, "No, not really" and walked away.

Later that day, after the final clean up, I asked him if he wanted to know why I was totally naked while I was brewing. I explained about the cleaning with bleach, and he didn't act like it was weird to have your wife brewing 11 gallons of IPA totally naked.
 
Back when I first started brewing my good friend and roommate at the time convinced me we should sanitize the bottles in the bath tub. 1 CUP of bleach per 10 gallons of water or something ridiculous like that. Our GI tracks took a beating with with that batch of beer.
 
yooper said:
i know i've shared this story before but it fits here............

I was brewing one day and noticed that my one fermenter (plastic) didn't look as pristine as i like. I decided to give it bleach/water bath while i was waiting for my wort to boil.

But then i realized i loved the clothes i was wearing, so i took them off so i wouldn't accidentally get bleach on them.

I cleaned the fermenter and rinsed it well, but nearly got a boil over so was over at my brewstand, stirring my wort, when my husband walked in the brewery. He looked at me, sort of puzzled.

I said, "oh! I guess you must be wondering why i'm brewing stark naked!"

knowing me so well after all these years, he shrugged and said, "no, not really" and walked away.

Later that day, after the final clean up, i asked him if he wanted to know why i was totally naked while i was brewing. I explained about the cleaning with bleach, and he didn't act like it was weird to have your wife brewing 11 gallons of ipa totally naked.
Click to expand...

:d
 
A gallon of bleach is cheap but Star San is too when used properly.

A 16 oz jug of StarSan costs $16.95 at my LHBS, which is $1.06 per ounce.

The directions are to mix 1 ounce of Star San in 5 gallons of water. I keep this solution in a bucket and it is good for 3 months before needing to be changed. That's a cost of only $4.24 per year for sanitation.
 
That's where the cost of Star-San becomes a little more blurred, because you can't keep a bleach solution on hand nearly as long. My understanding of bleach solutions is that they need to be used within 24 hours as the chlorine eventually degrades, or maybe leaves in the form of gas? But considering that one ounce treats 10 gallons and bleach costs roughly 1 to 2 dollars a gallon, it still blows Star-San out of the water. It's up to you to decide whether the convenience is worth it to you, and frankly a few bucks for Star-San is a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things. If you want to use it, it's obviously superior in virtually every way other than price and ease of availability.
 
I'm going to try a potent bleach bomb for an hour or two just to make myself feel better.Zap the crap out of everything.No concern for my cloths,Ill wear my work cloths.
 
You're talking about two different things, cleaning and sanitizing. Both are necessary steps for your equipment. Bleach can be used for cleaning, you just have to rinse the heck out of it afterwards. That's a lot of water waste. I use oxyclean. It's still cheap and does the job well.
After your equipment is clean, then you sanitize. That's where star san comes into play. Fill up a bottle and spray down your equipment to minimalize usage.
It does you no good to sanitize dirty equipment, and vice versa. All I've ever used is oxyclean and star san, and never had a problem or infection.
 
MrPowers said:
In my opinion, a strong bleach solution is the only solution to a stubborn krausen ring stuck on the inside of a glass carboy. Scrubbing can only do so much, but bleach will get that carboy spotless.

Of course, after I bleach my carboys, I then rinse them until there is no odor, and go back to sanitizing with star san.
Click to expand...

Give vinegar a try. It's bleach's big brother when it comes to crud...
 
Vinegar is acetic acid. Another product good for stuck on burnt crud is barkeepers friend, which is oxalic acid. What really kicks the hell out of krausen is powdered brew wash. It rips that stuff off like it's not even there. It's expensive so I use it sparingly, but it's worth the money for tough stuff.
 
bendog15 said:
Bleach can be used for cleaning, you just have to rinse the heck out of it afterwards. That's a lot of water waste. I use oxyclean. It's still cheap and does the job well.
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To me this is the crux of why Bleach is not an alternative. It is extremely wasteful. Growing up in California during the big drought, the other big drought water conservation has been drilled into my head from an early age. In my brewing process I'd estimate 90% of the water used makes it into my beer, garden or laundry.

The moment bleach enters the water it becomes useless for reuse and you have to rinse thoroughly afterwards. I have a keg and carboy cleaner I use to clean all my equipment. I only break it out when I have multiple vessels needing cleaned. I'd guess it takes less than 5 gallons to clean and rinse 5 or more vessels. For cleaning a small number of vessels I use Oxyclean and a drill attached spinning thing I got locally for $10. These two handle carboy crud easily.
 
Homercidal said:
The fear of bleach comes from it's misuse. A lot of people make a VERY strong solution of it. That is not required.

I would have to research the recipe, but I believe that the owner of Five-Star Chemicals, the maker of Star-San, has recommended Bleach. IIRC he recommended adding a small amount of acid to the bleach mixture to form a no-rinse sanitizer. The amount was something like 1 TBSP bleach per 5 gallons of water. Can't recall the amount of acid.
Click to expand...

I shy away from it for the reason above. Not all bleaches are the same and some contain dioxins. I don't know my way around the types and have steered away from them.

I don't mean to challenge friend, but I would be curious if you could elaborate on the specifics of using bleach and acid together. This has always been a no no due to the potential release of chlorine gas that I have read. It also seems like it would neutralize the effects of both compounds. I would very much like to expand my knowledge in this. I would have thought you would run your bleach solution, a quick rinse, and then an acid to neutralize residual compounds.

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

Also, in case it isn't known, chlorine bleach will eat your steel. I've seen kegs left with bleach turn into sieves with tons of holes chewed right through. If you use a bleach on your steel for a short period, you need to passivate with a nitric acid solution to rinse the exposed iron from the surface afterwards.
 
xico said:
I shy away from it for the reason above. Not all bleaches are the same and some contain dioxins. I don't know my way around the types and have steered away from them.

I don't mean to challenge friend, but I would be curious if you could elaborate on the specifics of using bleach and acid together. This has always been a no no due to the potential release of chlorine gas that I have read. It also seems like it would neutralize the effects of both compounds. I would very much like to expand my knowledge in this. I would have thought you would run your bleach solution, a quick rinse, and then an acid to neutralize residual compounds.

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

Also, in case it isn't known, chlorine bleach will eat your steel. I've seen kegs left with bleach turn into sieves with tons of holes chewed right through. If you use a bleach on your steel for a short period, you need to passivate with a nitric acid solution to rinse the exposed iron from the surface afterwards.
Click to expand...

I don't have the recipe for the bleach/acid that Charlie Tally recommended in a podcast (As I already stated). You can probably find the podcast. I think it was from either The Brewing Network, or Basic Brewing Radio.

I believe the danger form fumes is quite low due to the very small amounts being diluted in water.

As is the case with any dangerous chemicals, read all you can and be careful. It's fairly common knowledge that bleach can be dangerous (But Sodium Hydroxide is too, but more so.)
 
xico said:
I shy away from it for the reason above. Not all bleaches are the same and some contain dioxins. I don't know my way around the types and have steered away from them.

I don't mean to challenge friend, but I would be curious if you could elaborate on the specifics of using bleach and acid together. This has always been a no no due to the potential release of chlorine gas that I have read. It also seems like it would neutralize the effects of both compounds. I would very much like to expand my knowledge in this. I would have thought you would run your bleach solution, a quick rinse, and then an acid to neutralize residual compounds.

There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.

Also, in case it isn't known, chlorine bleach will eat your steel. I've seen kegs left with bleach turn into sieves with tons of holes chewed right through. If you use a bleach on your steel for a short period, you need to passivate with a nitric acid solution to rinse the exposed iron from the surface afterwards.
Click to expand...

There is an equilibrium between hypochlorous acid and the hypochlorite ion that is pH dependant. Hypochlorous acid is a stronger disinfectant but is also less stable. You do need to be very mindful of the end pH. If the ph is to low you see an equilibrium between hypochlorous acid and chlorine, releasing chlorine gas. Whether that amount is a worry in a dilute solution would depend on multiple factors (dilution, amount, airflow, volume of room). There are multiple sources covering what the equilibrium of the miltiple species will be at any given pH.

This link covers it decently well.
http://www.hach.com/DisinfectionSeries02
 
xico said:
There are other food grade cleaners I utilize that don't have to be costly, but need investment in protection while handling. Sodium Hydroxide will strip organic buildup at 5%. Wear a breathing mask or respirator for powder, gloves, and I like a splash face shield for caustics (I use one I got at the local welding shop that flips up/down), don't skimp on safety, spend the 30 bucks.
Click to expand...

And I thought bleaching my clothes was my biggest concern when cleaning my brewing equipment. If I have to wear a hazmat gear to clean my brew gear I am considering alternative cleaning methods.
 
Photopilot said:
And I thought bleaching my clothes was my biggest concern when cleaning my brewing equipment. If I have to wear a hazmat gear to clean my brew gear I am considering alternative cleaning methods.
Click to expand...
Me and some of the guys bleaching the kiddy pool after an "accident"

hazmat suit.jpg
 
Homercidal said:
I don't have the recipe for the bleach/acid that Charlie Tally recommended in a podcast
Click to expand...

My saved micronotes from said podcast:

1oz bleach to 5 gal water, then 1oz white vinegar.
30 seconds contact time
No rinsing required
 
Okay there are a TON of options out there that result in the same level of sanitation as bleach. But without the issues of bleach. QUATs and Peracetic acid or Isopropyl Alcohol 97% is great and easier to rinse... Hydrogen peroxide is also great, which you have to use to make peracetic acid at home. There is a lot of advantages to having a method of using different sanitizers a few times a year to help clean up everything to "brand-new" like conditions, but plastics are cheap because they can be replaced.
 
While I don't use bleach for everyday cleaning, it can be a useful addition to your microbe-fighting arsenal. In some ways, its better than Iodophor. However, Iodophor is part of my regular disinfectant rotation since it won't leave my beers with chlorophenols. But sometimes, you have to go nuclear!

Due to the effect of water pH on chlorine effectiveness, acidifying your water prior to adding your bleach is a very good idea. It turns out that the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water is perfect for calculating an appropriate dose of acid for your water...as long as you know your water's alkalinity. By the way, distilled vinegar is 5% acetic acid. That is an option in Water Acidification calculator.

PS: Lorena, I can see that I'd be in trouble if I brewed around you!
 
Photopilot said:
And I thought bleaching my clothes was my biggest concern when cleaning my brewing equipment. If I have to wear a hazmat gear to clean my brew gear I am considering alternative cleaning methods.
Click to expand...

It depends on your equipment. Systems I work on can be upwards to 45 gallon vessels (some conicals). Scrubbing is not an option and chemicals do the trick.

I don't see why homebrewers would need to use lye on the regular. I do a deep clean every 20-25 brews. I use a common brewers wash for brewday cleanups and only use goggles for that. I didn't clarify that earlier. Gearing up is for the occasional 15-minute soak-circ of 75 C water with sodium hydroxide and run through the lines and nothing but steel (and a little beer stone) is left behind. Silicone hoses return to the color they were when I bought them. For me personally, extending the years of my plumbing alone makes it worth it to me.

I mention safety gear because that should probably be used in the context of bleach as well. I agree with using alternatives for regular brewday cleanups but the homebrew stuff doesn't deep clean like lye and then phosphoric/nitric acid runs do.
 
DO NOT POUR THE VINEGAR OUT ON YOUR LAWN AFTER YOUR DONE....

dont ask mt how I know this... :(

It's better and longer lasting than Roundup...
 

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