Why don't yeast companies just sell liquid yeast packages with higher cell counts?

[Jerz]

Here ya go... here's the Wyeast 2308 Mfg 7-16-2014, purchased on 7-25-14 and brewed on, 8-2-2014.... pretty viable.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Here ya go... here's the Wyeast 2308 Mfg 7-16-2014, purchased on 7-25-14 and brewed on, 8-2-2014.... pretty viable.

Let me second the jealousy then. I'd love to get yeast that's barely a week old...

 

[Twinkeelfool]

You can imagine how fresh it is here in Australia.

 

[eric19312]

Just curious, did they have US-05? If so, why use WLP008 or even WLP001 instead of a dried version that has a higher cell count, is cheaper, and has a longer shelf life.

I am a big fan of US-05 and was already using a super fresh second generation pitch of that yeast in half the batch. My hope had been to compare WLP001 with a starter to a fresh repitch of US-05. I changed my experimental plan at the LHBS when it turned out he didn't have any WLP001 and went with 008. Not going to be that much of an experiment but I do like pitching different yeasts in my split batches to learn about yeast contributed flavors. In retrospect an interesting experiment might have been 2 packs of rehydrated US05 vs the cup of second generation US05 slurry.

 

[therealtricky]

Let me second the jealousy then. I'd love to get yeast that's barely a week old...

Good news: I get my yeast that fresh too.. Bad news: the LHBS who stocks fresh yeast usually has old grain or a limited selection (since they push extract recipes and kits so hard). So.. I have to end up going to 2 (or 3) LHBS to get the freshest combination of ingredients...

I know, I shouldn't complain. But that's what the internet if for, right?

 

[TNGabe]

Hey g-star, do you know if there has been any research on tired yeast. FOr example if I make a starter with old yeast, is all of the new growth yeast as viable as the orginal yeast once was?

Anecdotaly, from my experience, old yeast is old yeast. Make a starter (or two) and it will obvisouly perform better than if you just pitch a year old smack pack, but you're still growing up stressed, mutated yeast. The only way to get back to a healthy state would be to isolate from a single healthy cell grown to a colony.

 

[wobdee]

Here's what I've been doing lately. I brew 2.5 gal batches mostly lagers and I use one smack pack of Wyeast 2124 into 3 gal of wort at 50 degrees. My lagers are usually done in 10 days then I cold crash for 3 then keg and lager.

After this batch i will reuse slurry for 5 generations before buying another smack pack.

So far so good, no starters, no off flavors, great beer.

Maybe a good idea for some brewers instead of using starters is to start off with a smaller 2.5 gal batch and a smack pack then use slurry for future larger batches?

 

[Talgrath]

They pre-crush grain because most people don't want the expense of a mill and are willing to pay a higher price for crushed grain vs uncrushed grain. The footprint of a grain mill is also significantly less than if you were trying to sell numerous starters.

Finally, there is something clearly wrong here if you find making a yeast starter too difficult or time consuming that you need to pay someone else to do it. It takes at most 20 minutes, and that includes cooling and cleanup time.

For myself, I don't do starters, I simply buy and use the appropriate amount of yeast (liquid or dry) for the beer I'm making, why? Because I live in a house with roommates who won't necessarily appreciate my yeast starter being in the fridge. My carboy can sit in the downstairs where it's out of the way but fridge space is at a premium (space in general is at a premium, to be honest) and the last time I did a starter there was a bunch of grousing about not wanting something weird looking like that in the fridge. Rather than deal with grumbling roommates, I spend the extra $6.

 

[MaxStout]

This is a bad idea for so many reasons. If you want the stuff handed to you, buy a kit. I buy in bulk, size my starters to be exactly what I need, and crush my grain the same way each time. If they do it for me I can't control any of it nor be guaranteed they even did it properly.

This.

Yeast manufacturers can guarantee sanitary conditions of their product because it is produced and packaged in a carefully-controlled environment. Can your LHBS maintain sanitary conditions when making starters? Maybe, maybe not.

Too many variables and too many ways that can go wrong if we were to farm that out, despite all the best intentions. A lot of what makes this hobby rewarding is the ability to DIY those parts of the process. I actually enjoy making starters and wouldn't want to hand that over to someone else. There's something really cool about turning 60-70 billion critters into 400 billion.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Everyone has their own priorities. I just happen to have too many hobbies and creating yeast starters isn't one of them.

Hey, more power to you. If you make good beer and you're happy with your process and cost, you're doing fine.

I'm just saying I would feel ridiculous doing the same. But that's why you're you and I'm me. Whatever floats your boat...

 

[Jerz]

Well with all that said... I'm kind of excited now since I found a process that will work for me. I'm going to start canning wort in a pressure cooker in pint and quart jars and stick it in the pantry so any time I need a starter I can simply dump in an erlenmeyer flask or two using whatever size starter that is appropriate for the gravity, beer style, and batch size so I can get proper pitch rate. Cheers...

 

[eric19312]

I'm canning wort for starters too, I don't have a stir plate yet, starter just gets made in half gallon or one gallon growler on kitchen counter with foil for a stopper. Shake/swirl when I walk past to knock out the CO2. Not yeast lab sanitary but seems to do the trick and I get reasonably short lag when I pitch.


Your original question is kind of interesting the more I think about it. I am wondering if it is really cell population that matters in determining fermentation performance. Is 4 packs as good for a home brew fermentation as a starter grown to same viable cell count? Maybe 4 packs is actually better due to lower level of contamination. On other hand maybe there really is something to waking up the yeast and getting a couple recent divisions when pitching.

 

[Darwin18]

For myself, I don't do starters, I simply buy and use the appropriate amount of yeast (liquid or dry) for the beer I'm making, why? Because I live in a house with roommates who won't necessarily appreciate my yeast starter being in the fridge. My carboy can sit in the downstairs where it's out of the way but fridge space is at a premium (space in general is at a premium, to be honest) and the last time I did a starter there was a bunch of grousing about not wanting something weird looking like that in the fridge. Rather than deal with grumbling roommates, I spend the extra $6.

Why are you fermenting your starters in the refrigerator? Temperature control isn't something you really need to worry about with starters, unless you're trying to drop the suspended yeast (cold crash) prior to pitching the starter but a lot of folks skip that step without issue (myself included).

 

[Talgrath]

Why are you fermenting your starters in the refrigerator? Temperature control isn't something you really need to worry about with starters, unless you're trying to drop the suspended yeast (cold crash) prior to pitching the starter but a lot of folks skip that step without issue (myself included).

I don't ferment them in the fridge, I store them in the fridge. If I'm going to do a starter, I need to do it the weekend before I brew when I have some spare time.

 

[Jerz]

I'm canning wort for starters too, I don't have a stir plate yet, starter just gets made in half gallon or one gallon growler on kitchen counter with foil for a stopper. Shake/swirl when I walk past to knock out the CO2. Not yeast lab sanitary but seems to do the trick and I get reasonably short lag when I pitch.


Your original question is kind of interesting the more I think about it. I am wondering if it is really cell population that matters in determining fermentation performance. Is 4 packs as good for a home brew fermentation as a starter grown to same viable cell count? Maybe 4 packs is actually better due to lower level of contamination. On other hand maybe there really is something to waking up the yeast and getting a couple recent divisions when pitching.

Based on my experience with a twelve gallon batch... Cell count is what matters... My lagers at 46*F with 8 smack packs start kicking off within twelve hours... Ales less than 1.057 with five to six smack packs do the same. I would focus more on cell count than anything else. Sure you could save money using slurry, making starters, or whatever... What's important is what works for you...

 

[g-star]

I buy one vial/smack pack and spend 30min making a 2-4L stir-plate starter depending on age/viabilility of the yeast and OG 2 days before brewing. This way, my yeast budget for a single beer doesn't exceed the cost of all the grains and hops put together. That works for me.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

I quit the liquid yeast smack packs after the time that I couldn't get the little nutrient pack to break and the whole pack blew open and spilled half my yeast and left me wondering about contamination. Surprisingly, the ferment went OK.
I have found that you can't go wrong taking Ed Wort's advice. Per, Ed, I converted to dry yeasts and get twice the cell count for half the money, better long term storage....blah, blah. There may be times when you need a specialty yeast from Wyeast or White labs but using Saf 05, Saf 04 and Notty is working out very well. I have used Lager yeast and Champagne yeast for a blueberry mead and those were fine too...also dried yeast.