Why don't yeast companies just sell liquid yeast packages with higher cell counts?

[Qhrumphf]

One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.

This is a bad idea for so many reasons. If you want the stuff handed to you, buy a kit. I buy in bulk, size my starters to be exactly what I need, and crush my grain the same way each time. If they do it for me I can't control any of it nor be guaranteed they even did it properly.

 

[Braufessor]

This is a bad idea for so many reasons. If you want the stuff handed to you, buy a kit. I buy in bulk, size my starters to be exactly what I need, and crush my grain the same way each time. If they do it for me I can't control any of it nor be guaranteed they even did it properly.

Yep - I agree. This would be very hit-and-miss in my opinion. There are 10 questions on here everyday from folks who are told "just get it below 80 and it will be fine" or "One Step will do both" or " just use these grains, and that extract and this other yeast and these substitute hops and it will basically be the same thing"..........

Pretty sure I would not want those same people trying to throw together my yeast starter for me.

I am sure some places could do a fine job of this...... but, I bet a lot could not. Yeast is just one of those things where I basically don't trust anyone but myself.

 

[Hello]

There was XL packs of yeast a couple years ago. must not have been popular enough to catch on. Here is the new white labs packs coming this fall.

Looks like they can fit more packs into a smaller space.

One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.

I asked about the them not having old yeast on sale. Apparently White Labs will take back yeast monthly if you buy a certain amount from them.

If you want all your grain crushed for you then order online or buy a kit locally. One of my most-used LHBS do not even sell kits in a box because the yeast sits on the shelves aging alongside the crushed grain. To give you the freshest ingredients possible, they choose to give you a binder of recipes that you can choose from and build your own kit. If you're adamant about not crushing your own grain then I bet they will do it, but really, just crush your grain. Crushing grain makes me physically uncomfortable for about 15 minutes after. It is embarrassing frankly and I hate it, but I do it and just try to shield myself from inhaling the crushed grain.

I prefer to know my grain is as fresh as I can get it. Sure, I understand my LHBS could be selling me older grain but with the care and regard they seem to have for the hobby, I somehow think they're on top of cycling out old grain.

As for yeast, I would not want anyone but me making a starter really. I want to be sure I am not getting bad yeast that could infect my beer. Call me a control freak but starters are just another part of the hobby.

 

[Arrheinous]

As for following those who say direct-pitch/no starter, it's all fun and games until you make that one under-pitched batch with off-flavors due to stressed yeast. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.) After that, you'll become a believer in starters.

Some people prefer to call that "house character".

 

[g-star]

Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.

 

[JustLooking]

Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

+1 to this!

A perfect example:

You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.

Generally yes, but it's not as black and white as "always". If you've got a very fresh pack of Belgian yeast going into a 1.030 og Tafelbier you'll decimate the yeast character if you make a starter first.

Speaking of parroting talking heads and misinformation...

 

[CA_Mouse]

Generally yes, but it's not as black and white as "always". If you've got a very fresh pack of Belgian yeast going into a 1.030 og Tafelbier you'll decimate the yeast character if you make a starter first.

The same can be said for any or the sour yeasts. They don't suggest that you make starters for them and frankly speaking, my sours have been outstanding without starters.

 

[Darwin18]

One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.

They pre-crush grain because most people don't want the expense of a mill and are willing to pay a higher price for crushed grain vs uncrushed grain. The footprint of a grain mill is also significantly less than if you were trying to sell numerous starters.

Finally, there is something clearly wrong here if you find making a yeast starter too difficult or time consuming that you need to pay someone else to do it. It takes at most 20 minutes, and that includes cooling and cleanup time.

 

[grathan]

Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.

Hey g-star, do you know if there has been any research on tired yeast. FOr example if I make a starter with old yeast, is all of the new growth yeast as viable as the orginal yeast once was?

 

[grathan]

They pre-crush grain because most people don't want the expense of a mill and are willing to pay a higher price for crushed grain vs uncrushed grain. The footprint of a grain mill is also significantly less than if you were trying to sell numerous starters.

Finally, there is something clearly wrong here if you find making a yeast starter too difficult or time consuming that you need to pay someone else to do it. It takes at most 20 minutes, and that includes cooling and cleanup time.

My starters usually take 3 days. A lot can change in 3 days.




KNow what'd be even better than if they made a starter for my lazy ass? If I could just go there and use their equipment and they clean up the mess.

 

[dyqik]

One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.

I believe some shops do do the grain selection and crushing for you - I've seen other users reference that. The problem being that sometimes shops make mistakes, and you won't discover that easily (bad if it ruins a batch, even worse if a mistake leads to your best ever beer and you can't recreate it!).

As for making starters - if the LHBS pitches the yeast for the starter, then it runs the risk of needing a liquor license to sell the starter to you (depending on state, etc.), since a starter is technically beer. If it doesn't, then infection would be a problem (as would liability for infection).

 

[Darwin18]

My starters usually take 3 days. A lot can change in 3 days.

If your schedule is that variable then you should stick with dry yeast.

KNow what'd be even better than if they made a starter for my lazy ass? If I could just go there and use their equipment and they clean up the mess.

That's called brew on premises.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Jamil Z says, "go the extra mile to pitch a healthy number of viable yeast."

Gordon Strong says, "I use one smack pack per batch, including lagers, and rarely use a starter."

Chris White says, "you should probably use a starter with liquid strains."

Dave Logsdon says, "you should direct pitch one activator pack, it's plenty."

(To sum it up, anyway.)

I just don't know what to believe anymore. /cries

I'd err on the side of caution and go with the starters.

 

[grathan]

If your schedule is that variable then you should stick with dry yeast.



That's called brew on premises.

Thanks , I've used mostly dry yeast this year. I got a starter going atm as well if it makes you feel any better. Unfortunate that my dme stockpile is starting to solidify.

 

[dobes]

I don't think I would want my homebrew shop to make a starter for me. If I end up with an off batch that would be the first place I would think was the issue. I like to have as much control over my brew process as possible and any issues are my fault.
The few times were an unscheduled brew day becomes possible I just use dry yeast. I always try and keep the ingredients around just in case I can do a brew last minute. But any time I use liquid yeast I make a starter.

 

[Jerz]

Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.

What's the difference if I pitch six fresh smackpacks or make a starter to a 12 gallon batch of ale??? I'll put my beer up against anyones.

 

[eric19312]

What's the difference if I pitch six fresh smackpacks or make a starter to a 12 gallon batch of ale??? I'll put my beer up against anyones.

About $50 at the price my LHBS charges for liquid yeast. $10 a tube can you believe it? Half of it is 3 months old...

 

[DonH]

This is why I wash and re-use my yeast you can make a starter then simply put your yeast in a applicable sterile jar and place into the fridge.

 

[Jerz]

About $50 at the price my LHBS charges for liquid yeast. $10 a tube can you believe it? Half of it is 3 months old...

Well... $7 per smackpack that's more like two to three weeks old (they don't seem to carry the 3 month old at my LHBS). So $42 plus tax... If I do a starter I would save about $35 for a twelve gallon batch... My time is worth more than that I travel, work late, etc... I'd rather focus on beer.

 

[Qhrumphf]

This is why I wash and re-use my yeast you can make a starter then simply put your yeast in a applicable sterile jar and place into the fridge.

This. Make one batch (with starter if necessary), and then you've got plenty of yeast to keep brewing with when it's done, with no starter required. I usually start with a session beer (again, low enough gravity with fresh enough yeast that I don't need a starter), and from that one smack pack or vial, I get 5 gallons of delicious easy quaffing beer, plus enough yeast for two more batches, one session beer, and one bigger beer. Then I'll repeat with the second session beer. And I'll go up to 5 generations that way.

Well... $7 per smackpack that's more like two to three weeks old (they don't seem to carry the 3 month old at my LHBS). So $42 plus tax... If I do a starter I would save about $35 for a twelve gallon batch... My time is worth more than that I travel, work late, etc... I'd rather focus on beer.

See what I do above. Talk about cheap and fast. No starter, plus I'll usually get anywhere from 6-10 batches out of a single vial or smack pack.

 

[Jerz]

This is why I wash and re-use my yeast you can make a starter then simply put your yeast in a applicable sterile jar and place into the fridge.

I think that's awesome and as time goes on I'll definitely work my way into that but for now, all things considered, I'd rather pay the extra money for more yeast, and work my way up to what you do.

That being said... I ordered a pressure cooker and some pint jars after reading this byo article... https://byo.com/stories/item/434-canning-yeast-starters

 

[eric19312]

Well... $7 per smackpack that's more like two to three weeks old (they don't seem to carry the 3 month old at my LHBS). So $42 plus tax... If I do a starter I would save about $35 for a twelve gallon batch... My time is worth more than that I travel, work late, etc... I'd rather focus on beer.

You got it good if you get $7/smack pack and can find 6 of the variety you want less than a month old at your LHBS. I was looking for WLP001 the other day at my guy and he had none. Ended up with 2 month old WLP008 for $10. No Wyeast, just WLP or dry.

 

[Jerz]

You got it good if you get $7/smack pack and can find 6 of the variety you want less than a month old at your LHBS. I was looking for WLP001 the other day at my guy and he had none. Ended up with 2 month old WLP008 for $10. No Wyeast, just WLP or dry.

Wow... Wyeast is $6.40 - 6.95 (depending if they remember to give me a discount) and if I point out that it's old they'll take another dollar off. I ran into a problem where they didn't have the Wyeast 2308 (Munich) and the Wyeast 2633 (Oktoberfest) so they just ordered it and had to put my brew off a week but this stuff was a week to two weeks old at most and that was it.... I guess I'm lucky. They have WLP too but I'm partial to the smackpacks so I can see viability since I'm not doing starters.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Mine is usually $6.99, and my LHBS stocks just about every Wyeast strain, and most of the White Labs strains too. I haven't picked through them all, but generally if I can't get what I want, it'll be in on the next truck. And it's usually 1-2 months old depending on the popularity of the strain. Less popular strains they only order a couple at a time and they may sit there a while. Oldest I got was WLP vial that was just before the best buy (4 months old IIRC their date system, I don't normally use WLP but needed that particular strain). If I'm lucky I'll get one thats 2-3 weeks, but 5-6 weeks I'd say is average.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Well... $7 per smackpack that's more like two to three weeks old (they don't seem to carry the 3 month old at my LHBS). So $42 plus tax... If I do a starter I would save about $35 for a twelve gallon batch... My time is worth more than that I travel, work late, etc... I'd rather focus on beer.

I travel, work hard, have kids, and all the same -- and my income is sufficient that buying that much yeast wouldn't break the bank by any means. Still, $42 for yeast for a batch just seems outrageous. That's more than grains and hops and propane and ice for the chiller combined for almost all my batches, and I brew 10 gallon batches.

I generally use dry yeast when I can to save time and money... But when it comes time that I'm using a liquid strain, I just wait till the kids go to bed, fire up a quick starter, and get it done. It's not that hard.

 

[Jerz]

I travel, work hard, have kids, and all the same -- and my income is sufficient that buying that much yeast wouldn't break the bank by any means. Still, $42 for yeast for a batch just seems outrageous. That's more than grains and hops and propane and ice for the chiller combined for almost all my batches, and I brew 10 gallon batches.

I generally use dry yeast when I can to save time and money... But when it comes time that I'm using a liquid strain, I just wait till the kids go to bed, fire up a quick starter, and get it done. It's not that hard.

Well... it depends on how you look at things... to me... the yeast is the single most important thing and if I don't have the time or timing to do it correctly then I shouldn't even attempt it because in the grand scheme of things I'm still brewing a beer for less than a dollar per 12 ounce bottle. I don't add in labor because it's a hobby. So... comparing that price to a 'craft' beer you can buy at the store... that's nothing.

Everyone has different priorities, some pay monthly dues to golf courses, some trade in their car every year, some pay $12 for a six pack, some overextend themselves in a mortgage. However, if someone CHOOSES to purchase enough yeast to make a 12 gallon batch vs make a starter I personally think it's a bit silly to tell them it's 'outrageous' or they're 'lazy' or they're 'underpitching'... Everyone has their own priorities. I just happen to have too many hobbies and creating yeast starters isn't one of them.

So anyway... I still don't see where you HAVE to make a starter in order to get the proper pitch especially if you use a smack pack where you can physically see the viability.

 

[novafire]

You got it good if you get $7/smack pack and can find 6 of the variety you want less than a month old at your LHBS. I was looking for WLP001 the other day at my guy and he had none. Ended up with 2 month old WLP008 for $10. No Wyeast, just WLP or dry.

Just curious, did they have US-05? If so, why use WLP008 or even WLP001 instead of a dried version that has a higher cell count, is cheaper, and has a longer shelf life.

On a slightly related note:
I guess I don't understand why all my LHBSs stock way more WY1056 than any other liquid yeasts when there is a perfectly good dry version out there.
I know dry yeast used to have a bad wrap from the early days of homebrewing, but it's come a long way.

 

[Hermit]

Generally yes, but it's not as black and white as "always". If you've got a very fresh pack of Belgian yeast going into a 1.030 og Tafelbier you'll decimate the yeast character if you make a starter first.

Speaking of parroting talking heads and misinformation...

If you know your sources, then pretty good chance you get the viability you expect. I have no problem with that. However, even one pack my be more than you need for that. I think we need to think in terms of 'optimal' pitch rate. Frugal person that I am I would probably look at doing a starter with the thought of dividing it right off the bat. I prefer that to yeast washing.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If you know your sources, then pretty good chance you get the viability you expect. I have no problem with that. However, even one pack my be more than you need for that. I think we need to think in terms of 'optimal' pitch rate. Frugal person that I am I would probably look at doing a starter with the thought of dividing it right off the bat. I prefer that to yeast washing.

I agree. However, I don't think that there's a black and white "optimal" that's right for everything and every one. "Optimal" is the right rate, combined with all the other factors, to achieve the results that you want.

"Never make a starter" and "always make a starter" are not acceptable answers to me, as they both demonstrate a failure to understand why we make starters in the first place. And if someone finds it better to pay extra money to simply by multiple packs, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, they're probably pitching closer to the right rate than someone making a starter, unless you're pumping filtered air into your Erlemeyer while it's on a stir plate, and then confirming the count via hemocytometer (we all probably grow less on our starters than we think we do).

And yes, were I pitching 95-100 billion viable cells into a 5 gallons of 1.030 Tafelbier, I too would consider that over pitching. As I said early on, the rate I've found to give me the ester character I want out of beers like that would be in the 0.5 mil cells per ml per °P, or about 70 billion cells. Most of the yeast I get my my LHBS is usually 75% viable or so, so that's about where I want it to be. If it's fresher, I'll either make a starter and harvest, or even age the yeast a little bit. But I've found pitching at a higher rate suppresses esters more than my liking. Tafelbier being just one example. But that's the same process I use for all my English Bitters. Scottish Ales, while still low gravity, are much cleaner, so I'll usually make a small starter for even a 60 shilling.

So tying it all back to the OP, that's another reason why I wouldn't want a pack with a higher pitch of yeast. And as has already been suggested, offering multiple sizes would likely just increase cost independent of cell count.

Hooooowever, there's also the well established point that yeast are more forgiving of an overpitch than they are an underpitch, so when in doubt, lean towards pitching more, I suppose.

Sorry for the rant. Hah.