Why doesn’t everyone BIAB?

[bendog15]

It seems to me a logical question. I’ve been doing 10 gal all-grain batches for about 6-7 years. Propane fired keggle, mashing in a Rubbermaid cooler. After too many stuck sparges I switched to the brew bag just in the mash tun. Loved it so much I’m gonna upgrade to a 20 gal kettle so I can single vessel BIAB and cut down on the brew day.
In my opinion, we’re just making wort. It’s not too hard. The yeast does all the heavy lifting. I don’t know many other people who homebrew. I understand that boys love their toys, and the shiny 3 vessel systems with all the pumps and hoses seems intriguing, but doesn’t that produce the same wort with much more dishes to do? Tell me if I’m wrong.

 

[Miraculix]

Indeed, you are correct. I even ferment in the same pot I mash and boil in

I can do single infusion and fancy multi step mashes in it.

But it surely doesn't look as fancy as a bad ass mash ton, an e boiling station, and a conical.

 

[myndflyte]

Each person has their preferences but all I know is that before I switched to BIAB, brewing was a chore and I really didn't like it. The simplicity and ease of BIAB changed all that.

 

[skw]

I got the impression that for some, building their brewing systems is a hobby within a hobby, and coming up with clever ideas for lautering equipment or tweaking for that extra percent efficiency is fun for them.

I sure hope so, because for me it isn't. After mostly BIAB, I did my first mash tun/batch sparge brew in over a year last weekend (too much grain in that recipe for my little bag), and I remembered again why I hated that part so much... I'm going to get a bigger brew bag now, maybe a stainless malt pipe if I can find one.

 

[Tim Schmidt]

I am one of the lucky ones i brewed 2 extract batches for a start in home brewing, then went straight to a 10 gallon kettle and all grain brew in a bag method and making 6 gallon batches of fine beer. I look at the pictures on some of the 3 tier systems mash tuns and pumps and hoses and think biab is quicker and easier.

 

[Dland]

Nothing fancy about my 3 vessel rig, as seen in avatar, just some battered old 1/2 kegs I attached the fittings to. Recently converted to electric, is working well for me. 4.5-5 hour brew days, start to finish, usually 11 gallons of clear wort pumped down to fermentor, making good beer on a regular basis.

But I am glad you like the way you are doing things too.

 

[Soulshine2]

I've been brewing for 3 yrs now I guess, seems longer than that ...
I do NOT BIAB . I've had most of my life where my back can be a bit unpredictable and lifting a 12 lb bag of grains is probably not good for it once hot water soaks it and it weighs double or triple. I'm leery that the bag could break should I attempt to raise it to drain and I will have hot wet grains or 150 degree water all over me. Just not an ergonomic or safe IMO. I built my mobile rig so the strike/sparge water is up on an electric stove element and I let gravity work in my favor from the pot to the Igloo Cube Cooler mash tun where I can stir the grains ,from there is sparged/gravity fed again to my boil kettle and then once again to the fermenter which is then moved via 2 wheeled dolly cart to my fermentation area. No pumps, very simple .
It works for me.

 

[Angus Young]

I also switched to BIAB in the cooler and cannot be happier. If you buy a strong, well made bag, you don't need to worry about bag breaking in the middle of the brewing process. I bought mine from Wilser, I believe my grandkids will be using that bag also I recently bought a mill and crushing the grains extremely fine. I started seeing %97 mash efficiency. After seeing extremly complicated, fancy, expensive setup photos here, I just go hug my 10gal cooler. You can still brew bad ass beer with a simple setup but I agree, everybody has their own preferences. Brew on!

 

[IslandLizard]

I’m gonna upgrade to a 20 gal kettle so I can single vessel BIAB

You'll need a hoist!

 

[soccerdad]

For me BIAB was just the easiest, cheapest (and turns out fastest) way to move to all grain from extract/partial mash. It made good beer so I stuck with it.

 

[jack13]

Any question that asks why not do X because X is simpler assumes that simplicity is a goal. It isn't always, at least not in every aspect of brewing for all brewers. Most of us do this because it's fun and it interests us. For some, including me, the BIAB process isn't as fun/interesting as other options. Can't explain why.

Just another silly example: If I could order a specific water profile from the store and have it delivered at no additional cost, that would be easier--but I still wouldn't do it. I enjoy calculating the amounts and measuring out the brewing salts.

But I do wonder if at some point in the future I'll start trying to simplify as much as I can, or even stop altogether and just buy beer at the store. Right now I can't imagine that, but who knows...

 

[Lefou]

Balancing traditional frugality with a bit of modern technology is what I shoot for.
It does take a moderate investment in time and money to plan out, prep, and clean up after yourself. There are a lot more brew hobbyist offerings vying for purchase now moreso than twenty years ago and it's easy for new brewers to get spun up buying expensive gadgets with a large footprint they might not need to make good beer.
What I like about the brew hobby is you can tailor it to your means and personal needs. it doesn't take expensive, high tech method or equipment to make beer at home but if that's your goal, do it.

 

[LittleRiver]

... my back can be a bit unpredictable and lifting a 12 lb bag of grains is probably not good for it once hot water soaks it and it weighs double or triple. I'm leery that the bag could break should I attempt to raise it to drain and I will have hot wet grains or 150 degree water all over me. Just not an ergonomic or safe IMO....

A length of small diameter rope and a few pulleys will give you enough mechanical advantage to easily lift a wet grain bag with one hand. Make one of those pulleys a ratcheting model, and it'll keep the bag from going down unless you intentionally hold the "down" lever.

If you let gravity fully drain the bag directly into the kettle, there is only a minimal amount of water left in the grains, which makes the bag easy to handle. You can use the same pulley system you used to raise the bag to lower it into a bucket for disposal.

As for worrying about the bag breaking open, do the math. The large surface area of the bag makes the force per square inch very small. Worrying about it failing so catastrophically that it would drench you with hot grains & water is just irrational.

 

[eric19312]

I'm happy with my three vessel system and see no need to change. OP asked why people don't BIAB and I'm bored this morning so sorry about the following wall of text. Short answer is scale. I can't see BIAB being all that easy at my scale. Allow me to explain.

I'm doing mostly 15 gallon batches with dry grain weight around 35 pounds and pre boil volume of about 20 gallons. I have 15.5 gallon HLT, 15.5 gallon MLT and 23 gallon BK. The mash tun is tight but I make it work up to about 1.080 OG batches. For grins I tried doing a full volume mash recirculating mash through the boil kettle (a two vessel - two pump emulation of full volume BIAB). What I found was I was able to control mash temp very well with the full volume (using the controlled direct fire burner on my mash tun) but mash converted slower than expected (thin mash?) so I ended up extending the time of the mash. Then as expected lautering was a breeze. No need to slow down from the 1.5 GPM I was recirculating at, just stopped returning wort to the mash tun about 6 min later I had my 20 gallon pre boil volume and shut down the pumps.

Oh wow 20 gallons at 160F takes a long time to bring to a boil over my NG burner. Close to an hour. Compared to fly sparging this batch took longer from start of mash to start of boil timer. This is because when I fly sparge (up to 60 min) my boil kettle is heating the entire time. At end of sparging I am 5 min from rolling boil. And so on this day for no time savings at all I still took the efficiency hit.

I call this an emulation of BIAB, it shows me what I could do if I upgraded to a 30 gallon brew kettle, installed some sort of winch/pulley system, built a different brew stand...thinking it would need to be closer to the floor to accomodate the winch. I could then BIAB for no time savings. To get actual brew day time savings I would need to change my heating system. That would mean a migration to electric and would require upgrading the utilities in my garage and building a control panel. Thinking for boiling 20 gallons would want minimum 30 amp supply but if goal is shorter brew day might look at either dual 30 amp or 50 amp depending on what my existing panel could accomodate. I still might have to deal with the efficiency hit from no sparge brewing.

After about 100 batches on my current system, vast majority solo brewing, I find it makes for a fairly easy brew day. I'm pretty busy at beginning of the brew and very end but mash/lauter/boil is all pretty hands off and I use this time to clean kegs and other brewery or garage projects. I am always thinking about ways to improve brew day process and flow and key bottleneck I am thinking about these days is chilling. I end with about 17.5 gallons in my kettle (aiming to transfer 16 to fermentor). I'v got 50' 1/2" IC, considering upgrading to Jaded but am guessing the improvement would be incremental. Thinking about going all in on a conical unitank with a glycol chiller. The transfer at 80F or so and chill to pitching temps with the glycol.

 

[Jako]

nothing like 3 large vessels and 20 degree weather..... I FEEL LIKE A VIKING!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't BIAB, or rather I only BIAB for 1 to 2.5 gal batches. My 5 gal system is 3 vessel.

My cooler holds mash temperature very nicely and has a ball valve and screen. With some rice hulls it never gets stuck lautering. Adding a bag would just be an extra thing for me to clean.

I am able to use a smaller kettle (8.5 gal). Converting my system to BIAB would just be an unnecessary expense at this point since I'd need to buy a larger kettle and a bag with pulley.

 

[jready]

I did BIAB for a couple of years after getting back into home brewing after a 10 year layoff. This past year I went back to a 3 vessel system. I initially kept my ebiab set up thinking I might want to have it for when I didn’t have much time. I have not found the time difference to be that great so I finally sold the EBIAB set up.

A few reasons I made the change:

1. Bigger batches I tend to now do 10-15 gallon batches and did not want to be limited by the vessel size.

2. I can do back to back batches. I did that occasionally with my EBIAB system and it lead to 10 hour brew days.
3. As long as I clean as I go it really doesn’t seem to be an issue.

Is my beer better? Probably not. Do I lose a bunch of time 3 vessel vs one? Maybe an hour at most. I will say I am lucky enough to have a dedicated brewery outbuilding so space isn’t an issue. If space were a concern I would have stuck with EBIAB

 

[Rodent]

I don't BIAB - I considered it at one point, but concluded that I'd never want to modify my 'old farmhouse' kitchen to include a ceiling hook where I could hoist and hold a heavy bag of draining wet grain.

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

I BIAB and I feel my beer is top shelf so I see no need to buy more equipment to clean. I cant see how it would benefit me in any way unless I started doing larger batches that would be different all together but 5-10 gallons works really well for me

 

[LittleRiver]

...we’re just making wort. It’s not too hard....

That was pretty much my conclusion.

Like most people I started brewing by making a few extract kits. I knew I liked brewing, and figured I would stick with it, so I researched the different options for brewing all grain. My conclusion was that people have unnecessarily complicated something that can and should be very simple.

The elegant simplicity and effectiveness of single vessel BIAB stood out to me, so that's the way I went. I have yet to see anything that would make me regret that decision.

 

[Wolfbayte]

For many, homebrewing is not just about creating a beer; it is an escape. The more challenging it is, the more of an escape it is. People like to tinker to spark their creativity. They tinker with recipes; tinker with equipment, set ups, and builds; tinker with electronics and programming; tinker with wort (rack into secondaries); tinker with yeast (make starters); tinker with beer (cook); tinker with manifolds and braids. Jury rig keg builds to avoid bottling, develop new and exciting ways to sparge, jury rig guns to fill bottles from keg, create new cleaning compounds; etc. Tinker, tinker, tinker. Build, build, build. Work, work, work. Keep the creative juices flowing. Keep working with their hands and their minds. For these folks, the more work, the more fun it is. And that is OK.

For others, there is a desire to keep it old school with the classic 3-tier setup. i.e., "I'll give up my HLT when they pry it from my cold dead hands." For these folks, Don't tell them sparging (or secondaries) are not necessary. Don't tell them this step or that equipment is not necessary. A bag? Hell, that's cheating. So it is written, so it shall be done. That is OK too.

Still others simply already have what has worked and see no reason to change. If I were starting today, I'd probably go BIAB. I bought a BIAG bag, but what am I supposed to do with my MLT? Watch it collect dust? What about all that time spent looking for a braided hose at the Goodwill. That summer I build the CPVC manifold? Or sparge arm? Or that other part I finally ordered? For these folks, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Perhaps they went too far down the rabbit hole and can't come out. But if it works, it worts; and that is OK as well. We all make beer one way or the other.


TL/DR: Three main reasons not everybody does BIAB:

1. BIAB takes some of the fun and challenge out of it for some.
2. BIAB is not the way our forefathers did it.
3. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[kh54s10]

I started with a 3 vessel gravity system. I am set up for that. I do not have a good way to handle the hot, wet, sticky, messy bag. If I did I might have a different opinion. But as it stands now I much prefer to NOT do BIAB. I get better efficiency, cleaner wort, and it really doesn't take me any more time to brew on my 3 vessel system.

 

[lump42]

It seems to me a logical question. I’ve been doing 10 gal all-grain batches for about 6-7 years. Propane fired keggle, mashing in a Rubbermaid cooler. After too many stuck sparges I switched to the brew bag just in the mash tun. Loved it so much I’m gonna upgrade to a 20 gal kettle so I can single vessel BIAB and cut down on the brew day.
In my opinion, we’re just making wort. It’s not too hard. The yeast does all the heavy lifting. I don’t know many other people who homebrew. I understand that boys love their toys, and the shiny 3 vessel systems with all the pumps and hoses seems intriguing, but doesn’t that produce the same wort with much more dishes to do? Tell me if I’m wrong.

Why doesn't everyone switch to electric, it's more efficient? Why don't we all brew all-grain? ( I've actually partially switch to extract, b/c the time constraints of small children). Why make beer? There are plenty of good breweries, it be simpler just to buy it.

Not everyone has the same goals. We don't all have a place we can attach a hoist outside to lift a bag. BIAB wasn't less equipment when I had an old cooler and enough spare plumping parts for a mash tun.

 

[MaxStout]

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool BIABer. I have good bags (Wilser) and use ratchet pulleys to hoist, so the heavy lifting in minimized. One of my friends does traditional 3-vessel AG. He tried BIAB a few times but didn't like it, citing the amount of trub. I don't mind the trub, and a Whirlfloc tablet drops it down anyway. To each their own.

 

[z-bob]

3-vessel, or some variation on that, has worked for hundreds of years, and it scales-up well. If you're set-up for it, I don't see any reason to change to BIAB. The ergonomics might be better too, I don't know. BIAB is new; I like it, and that's how I brew, but new does not equal better. If I were doing 10 gallon batches (or larger) instead of 4 or 5 gallons, I might switch to a 3v system.

For the size batches I'm doing and with the equipment I have, BIAB is faster and easier. The wort going into the fermenter is much cloudier than with 3v, but the beer coming out is clear and I really don't lose that much to the trub.

 

[Quadrider]

After almost 4 Years of 29 Extract batches, I finally made the jump to AG. Strongly considered a 3V system... But with 3 little ones, and not really looking forward to 6-8 Hr. brew days or the additional cleanup needed, I ended up going e-BIAB, and couldn't be happier. I've ran 3 batches through my new system and continuing to learn what works and what doesn't work with every brew.

When considering 3V vs. BIAB, I specifically remember reading something on here @wilserbrewer mentioned that stuck with me: "The only difference between 3V vs. biab, is that with 3V you are removing the wort from the grain; with BIAB you remove the grain from the wort"

 

[Velnerj]

Three reasons I don't BIAB:

1) I brew outside so no place to hang a pulley (no I don't have a garage or a step ladder). I'm not going to hold 20 pounds of hot grains over several gallons of hot wort for several minutes and squeeze a sticky mess to up my efficiency.

2) Because I brew outside I use propane and a burner. I think holding a mash temperature for 60 min would be a constant PIA not to mention the worry of a burnt bag at the bottom of the kettle.

3) Sparging. Never understood how it's done so easily and effectively in biab. Either you plan no sparge, which I bet is what most do, or you'd need another vessel to "batch sparge" into which defeats the simplicity of BIAB. Now with no sparge it means you need to up the grain bill which on the long run costs money and limits you to certain gravities (assuming your limited kettle size).

 

[z-bob]

3) Sparging. Never understood how it's done so easily and effectively in biab. Either you plan no sparge, which I bet is what most do, or you'd need another vessel to "batch sparge" into which defeats the simplicity of BIAB. Now with no sparge it means you need to up the grain bill which on the long run costs money and limits you to certain gravities (assuming your limited kettle size).

With no-sparge your grain is loaded with dilute wort, say, 1.040 gravity and you squeeze out as much as you can and don't worry about the rest. If you sparge, your grain is loaded with first-runnings wort (1.060?) and you sparge to try to extract as much of that as possible but you never get all of it. The folks in Australia that developed BIAB say the end result is about the same.

I do sparge mine. I drain the bag, squeeze it a bit, and move it to a 5 gallon bucket. Pour a couple of gallons of hot (120°) water over it and give it a stir, and let it sit while my first runnings are heating. After 10 minutes or so, I drain/squeeze again and pour the second runnings into the kettle that's now almost at a boil. Even tho' it's more steps, I find this easier than handling 6 gallons of hot wort (or hot liquor) at once.

It's also easier to maintain a steady mash temperature with a larger volume.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I'm giving BIAB a shot.

Just got my Wilser Bag & pulley system in the mail yesterday, and my new 15 gallon kettle should arrive tomorrow.

I dont have enough free time, for the all day brewing/clean up, that my 3 tier system requires.

If I like it, I'll be getting rid of some coolers & hoses (will keep the h/w), and I already plan to get rid of my carboys.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Three reasons I don't BIAB:

1) I brew outside so no place to hang a pulley (no I don't have a garage or a step ladder). I'm not going to hold 20 pounds of hot grains over several gallons of hot wort for several minutes and squeeze a sticky mess to up my efficiency.

2) Because I brew outside I use propane and a burner. I think holding a mash temperature for 60 min would be a constant PIA not to mention the worry of a burnt bag at the bottom of the kettle.

3) Sparging. Never understood how it's done so easily and effectively in biab. Either you plan no sparge, which I bet is what most do, or you'd need another vessel to "batch sparge" into which defeats the simplicity of BIAB. Now with no sparge it means you need to up the grain bill which on the long run costs money and limits you to certain gravities (assuming your limited kettle size).

Is an increased grain bill necessary, with no sparge?
I thought guys were getting 75%+ efficiency w/ no sparge.

 

[Sbe2]

After almost 4 Years of 29 Extract batches, I finally made the jump to AG. Strongly considered a 3V system... But with 3 little ones, and not really looking forward to 6-8 Hr. brew days or the additional cleanup needed, I ended up going e-BIAB, and couldn't be happier. I've ran 3 batches through my new system and continuing to learn what works and what doesn't work with every brew.

When considering 3V vs. BIAB, I specifically remember reading something on here @wilserbrewer mentioned that stuck with me: "The only difference between 3V vs. biab, is that with 3V you are removing the wort from the grain; with BIAB you remove the grain from the wort"

This pic makes me want to switch to electric.

 

[Cato1507]

Indeed, each to his own preference and situation. I outgrew the gas stove top in the kitchen and also did not want to have to carry a kettle of hot wort.

Since I am space challenged in my garage wood shop, I came up with a simple BIAB set up on my workbench out there that requires no lifting, other than the gallon jugs of spring water.

I bought a 3500w induction burner, built a small platform same height and mounted a ratcheting pulley. I mash on the IB, slide kettle under pulley to drain, slide back to IB to boil, and then can chill with chiller or pump into my fermenter in the mini fridge. Bottle straight from the mini fridge.

For me it makes for a fun brew day without getting too complicated or overly long on clean up. I only do 2.5 up to 5 gal batches, which is plenty enough for me.
So many ways that you can enjoy this hobby, and it can fit nearly any budget.

 

[soccerdad]

If you hit your numbers, there is no need to sparge or squeeze. I do a fair number of 3.5 gallon batches (into fermenter) in order to fill four different 3 gallon kegs. If I get 3.5 G into the fermenter at the right gravity, what am I going to do with a cup or two of extra wort that would come from sparge and squeeze? Do I get out the bottling apparatus for a bomber or two. I do sometimes, but really, I went to kegs to avoid that.

 

[soccerdad]

A far more important question - with spring around the corner - why doesn't everyone hate the Yankees?

 

[RM-MN]

If I like it, I'll be getting rid of some coolers & hoses (will keep the h/w), and I already plan to get rid of my carboys...I'll just use one of my bucket fermenters, for a secondary, if I need one that bad.

NO. You either forget secondary or you use a carboy (5 gallon) for that as with the extra surface area and volume of air above the beer you have a very much increased chance of an infected beer. With the carboy you want to fill it until the beer is starting up the neck to limit how much space is left so that the outgassing CO2 can fill it quickly.

Is an increased grain bill necessary, with no sparge?
I thought guys were getting 75%+ efficiency w/ no sparge.

'Whether you use a 3 vessel of a no-sparge BIAB, the crush of the grain determines the efficiency for the most part. If you use the same crush for both, the BIAB with no sparge will come up short because you would leave a lot of sugars still in the grain which you would recover with your conventional tun with a sparge. However, with BIAB you can crush the grain to flour (almost) which will bring up the efficiency so you don't need to add grain to hit your numbers. My first BIAB got me 80% efficiency with no sparge.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Correct, I brain farted on the bucket secondary comment; I've been using my primary for dry hopping.

I will plan to double crush grains...right now I have a roller mill...not sure if it goes as fine as the Corona Mill

 

[LittleRiver]

... I brew outside so no place to hang a pulley (no I don't have a garage or a step ladder). I'm not going to hold 20 pounds of hot grains over several gallons of hot wort for several minutes and squeeze a sticky mess to up my efficiency.

You're willing to accept the additional complexity, expense, and cleanup of a multiple vessel system, but don't accept the minimal effort & expense to rig a hoist point?

The sticky mess argument is not valid, as there's no need to squeeze the bag. Gravity will drain it into the kettle. When it's fully drained it is light and easy to handle, just grab it by the non-sticky top part and put it into a bucket.

... brew outside...propane...holding a mash temperature for 60 min would be a constant PIA not to mention the worry of a burnt bag at the bottom of the kettle.

If you put some insulation over the kettle you'll hold temp just fine without the need to re-fire the burner. With insulation I hold within 1deg for 60 minutes in all but the dead of winter. In the cold months I still hold within 1deg for the first 10-15min, by which time conversion is complete (with a fine crush).

Sparging. Never understood how it's done so easily and effectively in biab. Either you plan no sparge, which I bet is what most do, or you'd need another vessel to "batch sparge" into which defeats the simplicity of BIAB. Now with no sparge it means you need to up the grain bill which on the long run costs money and limits you to certain gravities (assuming your limited kettle size).

Those are some bad assumptions.

I get mid 80's efficiency on my simple BIAB rig without sparging at all. I routinely exceed recipe targets without sparging or adding additional grain. If I want higher ABV I can add a sparge step, but since my process works so well without it I normally don't bother.

How it's done is by crushing the grain finer. That would cause problems in other systems, but BIAB easily supports it.

 

[bendog15]

You'll need a hoist!

Got one.

 

[Velnerj]

You're willing to accept the additional complexity, expense, and cleanup of a multiple vessel system, but don't accept the minimal effort & expense to rig a hoist point?

The sticky mess argument is not valid, as there's no need to squeeze the bag. Gravity will drain it into the kettle. When it's fully drained it is light and easy to handle, just grab it by the non-sticky top part and put it into a bucket.



If you put some insulation over the kettle you'll hold temp just fine without the need to re-fire the burner. With insulation I hold within 1deg for 60 minutes in all but the dead of winter. In the cold months I still hold within 1deg for the first 10-15min, by which time conversion is complete (with a fine crush).



Those are some bad assumptions.

I get mid 80's efficiency on my simple BIAB rig without sparging at all. I routinely exceed recipe targets without sparging or adding additional grain. If I want higher ABV I can add a sparge step, but since my process works so well without it I normally don't bother.

How it's done is by crushing the grain finer. That would cause problems in other systems, but BIAB easily supports it.

Building a hoist, buying a mill and remilling grain plus adding insulation etc sounds like a lot more work than converting a cooler to me... And cheaper.

 

[Soulshine2]

A length of small diameter rope and a few pulleys will give you enough mechanical advantage to easily lift a wet grain bag with one hand. Make one of those pulleys a ratcheting model, and it'll keep the bag from going down unless you intentionally hold the "down" lever.

If you let gravity fully drain the bag directly into the kettle, there is only a minimal amount of water left in the grains, which makes the bag easy to handle. You can use the same pulley system you used to raise the bag to lower it into a bucket for disposal.

As for worrying about the bag breaking open, do the math. The large surface area of the bag makes the force per square inch very small. Worrying about it failing so catastrophically that it would drench you with hot grains & water is just irrational.

im not suspending anything over my kettle . I'm not going to hoist hot wet grains above the kettle either.
I run my hot water from my strike kettle into my tun (gravity),add my grain, stir , allow it to sit the recommended time and make the slight temperature changes if necessary, and let it drain to the kettle(gravity again)I'm left with barely a quart of water but I usually have my pre-boil volume by then... no ropes ,no bag, no hoist ,much safer. I let the grains cool before scooping out of the tun...
Irrational? I think not.