Do you have a source for this? Maybe he's changed his routine but in his 2011 book Brewing Better Beer he says if he's using new yeast he always makes a starter.
White Labs....losing faith
- Thread starter JONNYROTTEN
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Do you have a source for this? Maybe he's changed his routine but in his 2011 book Brewing Better Beer he says if he's using new yeast he always makes a starter.
My take-aways from this thread.
A slurry is usually more active and quicker than a fresh pitch even with a starter for some reason. So the difference in lag time is normal.
Given the date of the WL yeast it is not at all surprising that there was a long lag time. As is the severe underpitch.
The cell counts of the 2 pitches were not equal so the comparison is invalid.
And if any criticism is due to WL it is the date of the replacement packs.
A slurry is usually more active and quicker than a fresh pitch even with a starter for some reason. So the difference in lag time is normal.
Given the date of the WL yeast it is not at all surprising that there was a long lag time. As is the severe underpitch.
The cell counts of the 2 pitches were not equal so the comparison is invalid.
And if any criticism is due to WL it is the date of the replacement packs.
Did you read the article I linked to in post #20? It isn't that Mr. Malty is getting dated, it's that we homebrewers are not using it as intended.
I've looked this up 3 times and didn't bookmark it as I thought it would never come up again. It was on the web and was hard to find each time. I believe it was from a blog post. It's your turn to look it up.
End of January mfg date? That explains the slowness. I think it's ok to use yeast that old but not without a starter to build the numbers and tell you where the yeast health is.
I have used yeast that was dated ok and believed to be handled appropriately, only the find the starter did nothing after almost 3 days. Chucked that bad boy and saved me the aggravation.
Also I know dry yeast is popular but I don't personally have any love for it. Even rehydrated properly, the lag time makes me uncomfortable. Not founded or a real reason to worry, but that's just me - I like a quick blast off!
I have used yeast that was dated ok and believed to be handled appropriately, only the find the starter did nothing after almost 3 days. Chucked that bad boy and saved me the aggravation.
Also I know dry yeast is popular but I don't personally have any love for it. Even rehydrated properly, the lag time makes me uncomfortable. Not founded or a real reason to worry, but that's just me - I like a quick blast off!
I have never had a starter not start. Maybe I am lucky. I have only bought liquid yeast online in the spring and fall so heat or cold was not a big concern. In the summer and winter I only use liquid yeast bought at my LHBS. 93 beers and a dozen wines.
When making a starter or using rehydrated dry yeast I don't get a significant difference in lag time or performance. Both will start quickly, my longest lag time ever was less than 17 hours. Almost every time I pitch in the late afternoon and have good action by morning. Sometimes in less than 4 hours with either liquid or dry.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
I'm gonna go ahead and throw a shenanigans card on the "4 hours dry" claim!
Yah I've never even seen a properly rehydrated fresh pack of dry ale yeast take off in better than 36 hours. I'm calling BS on this claim too.
Maybe if you pitch a packet to a 1.035 1G batch at 90F?
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Normally I use slurries but my last batch (3 days ago) I pitched a room temp pack of unrhydrated 05 at 7:00 PM in 5 gallons at 68 and when I woke up the next morning it was crankin away...not even close to just starting at 24 hours....I've had the same yeast take much longer but to say its not possible is wrong....yeast be some strange little animals
Go ahead and call me a liar. But it is true that I have never had a fermentation take longer than 17 hours to start. And I have had some start as quick as four hours.
OK, I don't know if those were the rehydrated or the liquid yeast brews. But still it shouldn't be taking days for fermentations to start!
If it is taking your dry yeasts 36 hours to start you are doing something wrong!
Or I am doing things a lot better than you are!
Different maybe... better.... hmmm.
dyqik
Well-Known Member
My hefeweizen brewed Monday with Munich Classic, rehydrated in bottled water, started going bananas exactly 24 hours after pitching, based on my Brewpi log, as that's when the fridge had to kick in to keep the beer temperature under control.
48 hours in, and the airlock is blowing its top.
Looking at my logs for the previous brew with Windsor, the fermentation took off after 18 hours.
48 hours in, and the airlock is blowing its top.
Looking at my logs for the previous brew with Windsor, the fermentation took off after 18 hours.
Well if it is taking all your dry yeasts 36 hours to start I must be doing things better since I have never had one take that long....
And no they are not one gallon batches at 90F!
I think you're jumping to a conclusion prematurely.
First, the metric of time to starting fermentation is only loosely correlated to quality, and even then it's only an issue when it takes an extremely long time, like 2 days, which usually indicates other issue (e.g. under pitching).
Second, have you considered perhaps there's another variable in play here, not even related to brewing process? Things like yeast strain, age, storage conditions (who knows how it was handled before we got it), etc.
Then there's likely some process differences such as actual pitching rate, actual wort temp (i ferment on the colder end of the scale), oxygenation levels, etc.
All things equal i'd bet we get the same result...
^^ This last sentence is probably true.
But to call me a liar because it doesn't take 36 hours for my dry yeasts to start....
If you rehydrate, pitch the proper amount in a wort at the proper temperature it might take 36 hours. But it should not take that long every time. If so something is wrong.
I didn't call you a liar. My point was about your original claim of a 4 hour start with liquid or dry. If you are getting real activity out of dry yeast in 4 hours then you've got some voodoo going on in your brewery.
applescrap
Be the ball!
I had to double check, but I had a 36 hour start with one and 60hr with the other. Also one of them didnt clear, keeping in mind they were warm fermented. As for tatse idk, but for price, robust ferment and quick start its hard to beat 34/70
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I actually corrected the timeframe in a later post. I posted 3 days and 36 hours...brain fart. It was 3 days and 70 hours and the reason for my concern...I corrected it in post #1
I OFTEN have lagers take 3 days to develop a krausen, even when using a starter (which I usually do with liquid yeast). I don't use W34/70 anymore, so it usually is liquid. I attribute this mostly to the cold start (~50F at pitch).
When I pitch from jarred slurry, it will start much earlier. This I attribute to the much much greater cell count.
Ales @ 62F are usually going by the next morning.
I won't pitch a liquid yeast that's over a month old. I've had several failures on old yeast pouches. I'll use slurry that's up to about 2 months old.
When I pitch from jarred slurry, it will start much earlier. This I attribute to the much much greater cell count.
Ales @ 62F are usually going by the next morning.
I won't pitch a liquid yeast that's over a month old. I've had several failures on old yeast pouches. I'll use slurry that's up to about 2 months old.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
This yeast is slooooow.
Its been 7 days since pitch date,4 days since I saw action and I'm only at 1.020 fro an OG of 1.038
My concern is I'm leaving in 4 days for 2 weeks. I'm at 50% but want to go a little longer before ramping up the temp. At this point I'm going to start free rising the temp tomorrow morning(Friday) That will bring me to Saturday morning before hitting 70 deg (maybe sooner)then letting it rest till Monday afternoon before I leave. Hopefully that's enough time to finish it off before crashing
Its been 7 days since pitch date,4 days since I saw action and I'm only at 1.020 fro an OG of 1.038
My concern is I'm leaving in 4 days for 2 weeks. I'm at 50% but want to go a little longer before ramping up the temp. At this point I'm going to start free rising the temp tomorrow morning(Friday) That will bring me to Saturday morning before hitting 70 deg (maybe sooner)then letting it rest till Monday afternoon before I leave. Hopefully that's enough time to finish it off before crashing
