When will this dumb-ass province bottom out on stupidity?

[Yuri_Rage]

Wouldn't you find it weird if you entered a store in Texas and no one spoke English, only Spanish. And I'm not talking about a Hispanic souvenir shop, but a clothes store that obviously targets the local audience. I'm not talking about only one employee speaking English, I mean none, at all. Not even the owner.

There are indeed many places like this in the southwest US. I don't go to those stores, but, again, in a capitalist society, owners can manage their stores however they like, and if the results are profitable, so be it.

Would you like it if your federal government said it was OK for Unilingual Spanish speaking Mexicans to immigrate into New Mexico where the official language is English. Not illegal Immigration, perfectly legal immigration.

Actually, that's completely legal here. We have a rather significant Spanish speaking population in the American southwest.

Clearly we're not going to agree, so this will be my last post in this thread. I don't want things to get ugly over a difference of opinion. You live in Quebec, so your opinions are understandably strong, and your position is to be expected. I can respect that.

 

[mr x]

Fine. Yes.

Honestly, Jack Layton doesn't care a bit about Nova Scotia, because you're what? 3% of the population. The Federal government is there to please Ontario, and sometimes BC. Then when everyone is sick of that, they vote for someone different (in this case the conservatives).

Ya know, there's more to politics than at the federal level. My provincial guys do just fine for me. And believe me, nobody is jealous of the PQ, but you keep on believing that. rotflmfao.

 

[Fingers]

Right, except that Québec is used to getting screwed over by the Federal government (Le Livre noir du Canada anglais has some examples, although the facts are correct, some of the authors are, I agree, fallacious) that if we solely relied on the Federal government, majority would simply take over (since Québec is only about 25% of the population).

WHO would take over? WHAT would they take over? We're talking about Canadians here. How can we take ourselves over? Unless, of course, Quebec doesn't consider itself Canadian and then there would be an 'us versus them' mentality. If I were a forward on a hockey team but did not consider myself a member of the team, I might resent somebody else scoring more goals than me despite the fact that we are winning.

In fact, every province thinks Ottawa is screwing them over. Danny Williams had a row with Ottawa over off shore oil, Lorne Calvert did the same over their oil, Dalton McGuinty thinks Ontario isn't getting enough of the pie, etc, etc. I expect each could write a black book too.

Again, the problem was that 50 years ago, the population was quite split between English and French. Most French people had to learn English simply to buy anything in Montréal, despite the official language being French.

The population is still split between English and French but now the law is forcing French on the English. 50 years ago you could do as you like without being subjected to legal action for displaying one of the official languages of the country. That doesn't make any sense. English is an official language in all of Canada but if you display it on your storefront in letters that are too big you will get fined out of existence until you remove it. This is better? You're trading freedom for oppression, IMHO.

 

[Chriso]

This thread got really bitchy all of a sudden. Instead of going back and forth about how the Quebec dwellers want to be EACs and speak a moronic language, how about you all work together to figure out what you're going to do about the beastly superpower that is licking its chops and dreaming of the day it can finally swallow your country whole? Because if we get either Big John or Driving Miss Dais-, er, Hillary in office, I'm sure they'll want to find a way to - you guys have oil, after all, and they want it.

And yes, I expect people to speak English wherever I go, but I don't care about diversity, I care about efficiency. It is more efficient to use the same language everywhere.

I agree with Fingers, but he's stating it a lot better than I am, so I'm out and unsubscribed before my American views totally **** this up. Lates.

 

[mrfocus]

You're trading freedom for oppression, IMHO.

Well, English speaking Quebecers can just move if they want to. Unfortunately, the legal language is French and the Loi 101 will be enforced even more in the future (the Prime Minister Jean Charest is already getting reaped for the law not being enforced enough). It's oppression of the few English speaking Quebecers for the freedom of the majority of French speaking Québecois. Most of them have learned to live with it, learn French later in life and live in a few specific cities (e.g. Montreal Island's West part).

Also, the existence of the Bloc is understandable. You have the Liberals who defend Ontario, BC and the Maritimes (about 50% of the population), Conservatives who have the Prairies (20%) and the Bloc which has Québec (25%) and the Territories.

Oh and for those who believe that Québec uses the notwithstanding clause for the Loi 101:

the National Assembly (under a Quebec Liberal government) amended the Charter of the French Language to make it comply with the Supreme Court rulings.

Actually, that's completely legal here. We have a rather significant Spanish speaking population in the American southwest.

Well, to immigrate to Canada you must speak one of the two official languages, but the problem is that Immigration Canada doesn't care if you speak only English and want to go to Québec. Since immigration is about 2/3 of our new people each year, most Québecois believe it is a tactic to assimilate or at least weaken Québec's French beliefs.

 

[boo boo]

. This last point is what really shot the Québec Prime Minister in the foot (Jacques Parizeau), since he said that Québec lost the referendum because of the immigrants, which is true, when you look at how close the vote was defeated: 0.58% of about 5 million: 0.58/100*5000000 = 29000, you can see how allowing tens of thousands immigrants who would vote against separation would help.
.

I hesitate to jump into the post, but how in the world can anyone tell how all those immigrants voted in a secret ballot? Is there something I should know about?

 

[Fingers]

Instead of going back and forth about how the Quebec dwellers want to be EACs and speak a moronic language,

I understand that you're speaking sarcastically, chriso, but I think we're all trying to avoid attacking each other personally here. This is a very touchy subject and everybody is being very mature in the debate. We're already ganging up on mrfocus here.

Well, English speaking Quebecers can just move if they want to.

Wow, is that a common sentiment in Quebec?


By the way, Quebec has a premiere like every other province. There is only one Prime Minister in Canada elected by the people. I understand that a separatist would like a prime minister or a president of Quebec, but until it happens it's very misleading to simply make up a title and ascribe it to someone who was never elected to the post.

I don't imagine either one of us will change the other's mind and it seems that things are starting to get heated so I think I'll let it go at that while we're still buddies in beer.

Here's to you, my friend.

 

[z987k]

Why doesn't the Canadian Feds do like ours do when a state gets it's panties all in a bunch, cut Federal Funding and tell them to get with the rest of the country or they can go **** themselves into poverty?

It's about the country as a whole, and while I'm generally REALLY for state/provincial rights, the majority should still rule.

 

[HenryHill]

I recall something about cessation from a country and what happened to them from the majority of other districts in the Union.

I hope that signs are worth that cost.

 

[Vermicous]

What do you call a person who speaks three languages?

Trilingual.


What do you call a person who speaks two languages?

Bilingual.

What do you call a person who speaks one language?

An American.

 

[boo boo]

What do you call a person who speaks one language?

An American.

I would call him a brewer.

 

[Air Pirate]

reading this thread, its kind of interesting how much identity we put into our language.

mrfocus brought up the American Southwest. there are a number of Americans who get bent out of shape because many immigrants dont speak English, and it seems to be a situation not entirely unlike that in Canada.

this seems to pop up not too infrequently throughout history. (Gaelic, Basque, Japanese)

btw, you Quebecois arent the only French speaking culture in North America. Louisiana still has some native speakers.

 

[Beerthoven]

This is a fascinating thread. I lived in states that border Canada most of my life (except now, of course), and I've been to Candada (including Quebec) more times than I can count. So none of this is new to me but I've never seen it discussed with such openness by real Canadians.

Thanks for keeping the tone civil and the posts well reasoned.

HBT is truly a wonderful place.

 

[EdWort]

reading this thread, its kind of interesting how much identity we put into our language.

mrfocus brought up the American Southwest. there are a number of Americans who get bent out of shape because many immigrants dont speak English, and it seems to be a situation not entirely unlike that in Canada.

Here in Texas it is getting out of hand. Fricking Spanish is everywhere. I filled out a bank draft form at Bank of America and it has Spanish everywhere on it plus a big DEBITO in the upper right corner. The Debit card machine at CVS now has spanish on it. "Cash back? Si or No.

Frickin Lowes & Home Depot has spanish everywhere and it seems all the products have bilingual packaging and the spanish side seems to face out on the shelf more often than not.

Sorry about the rant, but I moved to Germany and lived there for 5 years. I learned the fricking language as they were not going to do anything for me in English. I HAD to learn the language, so I did. I now speak fluent German.

This bilingual crap does nothing but create a divisiveness and keeps the Mexicans as second class citizens (the legal ones anyway) while adding huge cost for the tax payers to fund multi-language forms, bureaucracies, government offices, etc.

Push 1 for English my A$$.

Druck Numer Zwei fuer Deutsch!

/rant off.

 

[mrfocus]

Wow, is that a common sentiment in Quebec?

Well, when the Loi 101 passed, there were English speaking people who moved away. The rest stay here and are a minority (8%) so they must live according to what the majority want.

By the way, Quebec has a premiere like every other province. There is only one Prime Minister in Canada elected by the people. I understand that a separatist would like a prime minister or a president of Quebec, but until it happens it's very misleading to simply make up a title and ascribe it to someone who was never elected to the post.

Sorry, I hadn't remembered that in English Canada it's Premiere. In French it's "Premier Ministre" even at the provincial level.

Why doesn't the Canadian Feds do like ours do when a state gets it's panties all in a bunch, cut Federal Funding and tell them to get with the rest of the country or they can go **** themselves into poverty?

I would think that someone from a Federal Republic would think quite differently. I believed that each state was much more independent from the Federal government.

 

[uglygoat]

isn't Harp Beer still called Harp in french? Same with McCaffrey's? What do you call Guinness in French?

 

[Orpheus]

Insert levity (Triumph the Insult Comic Dog in Quebec City):

[YOUTUBE]skCsyCbOpUA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

Here in Texas it is getting out of hand. Fricking Spanish is everywhere. I filled out a bank draft form at Bank of America and it has Spanish everywhere on it plus a big DEBITO in the upper right corner. The Debit card machine at CVS now has spanish on it. "Cash back? Si or No.

Frickin Lowes & Home Depot has spanish everywhere and it seems all the products have bilingual packaging and the spanish side seems to face out on the shelf more often than not.

Sorry about the rant, but I moved to Germany and lived there for 5 years. I learned the fricking language as they were not going to do anything for me in English. I HAD to learn the language, so I did. I now speak fluent German.

This bilingual crap does nothing but create a divisiveness and keeps the Mexicans as second class citizens (the legal ones anyway) while adding huge cost for the tax payers to fund multi-language forms, bureaucracies, government offices, etc.

Push 1 for English my A$$.

Druck Numer Zwei fuer Deutsch!

/rant off.

+ 1,000 Things are completely out of hand.

 

[Kevin Dean]

Firstly, I support people being active in their political process. I believe government should be small, limited in power and personal. That said..

Well, when the Loi 101 passed, there were English speaking people who moved away. The rest stay here and are a minority (8%) so they must live according to what the majority want.

Why wasn't this "do what the majority said" good enough when they were telling Quebec to speak English or shut up (by approving English only immigrants)? Democracy is a grand goal until you're on the 49% getting oppressed.

I believed that each state was much more independent from the Federal government.

Canada and the US both have a problem that the national governments have claimed more power over the years by using the most vaguely worded parts. I assume the "notwithstanding" clause of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is similar to the US Constitutions' "provide for the welfare" clause.

I very much support the idea of a strong seperation between the national government and provincal (and beyond that to local) governments. The problem I see too much in the US, and I see in your arguements, that you're trying to embrace two political systems at the same time. You use the "we want it and we're in the majority" view to enforce the publishing of French as if it's a democracy, and you want the autonomy of having a true federation.

It doesn't work both ways. Either you have autonomy and no authority to dictate the actions of others or you have the authority to ride roughshod over people and be ridden roughshod over in turn. Always rememeber "A government big enough to give you everything that you want is powerful enough to take it all away."

This bilingual crap does nothing but create a divisiveness and keeps the Mexicans as second class citizens (the legal ones anyway) while adding huge cost for the tax payers to fund multi-language forms, bureaucracies, government offices, etc.

I agree on the principal but disagree on the specifics. America has no official language. This is exactly the reason why you can have tests read to you out loud from any governmnet agency. Yes, the illiterate are allowed to get a driver's license even though they can't read road signs, hazards warnings.

Until the US adopts an official language or two (I've always supported American English and American Sign language as our two officials) the Spanish speaking tax payers have as much right to Spanish IRS forms as you do English forms. I support a paperless government - it's really REALLY easy to translate web pages and computer applications and it only has to be done once.

As a side note... the US doesn't have an official language because the Founders couldn't agree on English or German, so they left it alone.

 

[EdWort]

As a side note... the US doesn't have an official language because the Founders couldn't agree on English or German, so they left it alone.

I wish they would pick one. Either is fine with me.

 

[mrfocus]

You use the "we want it and we're in the majority" view to enforce the publishing of French as if it's a democracy, and you want the autonomy of having a true federation.

I actually use the fact that Canada has two official languages, even though French has only been used in the House of Commons (I guess your congress) for the last 30 years (before that, although you were legally allowed to present a law or an opinion in French, you would have been basically told to either say it in English or keep shut). This is what really shows how RoC has tried to assimilate Québec.

On a side note, although we have two official languages, very few Federal politicians can truly speak both well. Either they're native English speakers and have huge accents and can basically only read speeches (Stephen Harper, our Prime Minister), or they're native French speakers (Stéphane Dion leader of the opposition who has basically -1 cojones, Gilles Duceppe leader of the Bloc) and have huge accents but have decent to good vocabulary.

As a side note... the US doesn't have an official language because the Founders couldn't agree on English or German, so they left it alone.

I was told this recently and did a little research, snopes has a nice short article: http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/german.asp

 

[Kevin Dean]

On a side note, although we have two official languages, very few Federal politicians can truly speak both well. Either they're native English speakers and have huge accents and can basically only read speeches (Stephen Harper, our Prime Minister), or they're native French speakers (Stéphane Dion leader of the opposition who has basically -1 cojones, Gilles Duceppe leader of the Bloc) and have huge accents but have decent to good vocabulary.

I'm slightly dumbfounded by that. In the US, we don't complain about the Latin immigrants not speaking clear English, we're ticked by those that make no effort at all.

That said, I'm a 'yankee' by tounge. To me the southern American accent sounds "redneck" and even a well worded speech sounds - for lack of a better term - stupid to me. I suppose I both understand your emphasis on French (which you consider to be more sophisticated and clearer, more "true") because of that.

Where I have a problem is that I'm also an English speaker, and I consider the virtue of my language to be the fact that it's a bastard language. We've pulled in words from Latin and it's offspring, greek, japanese....

Very much, to English speakers the ability to adapt and assimilate language to more clearly express our thoughts is the point, not the reason to resist.

Of course... It should be noted that there's no clear word in English for "Libre" and even though I use it in Spanish the word has the same meaning in French. I've always thought language was important and the existance of a word meaning "Free to be, unrestricted" is something I miss in English.

The problem is, I don't see a good way to solve anything. Again, it comes back to the "greener on the other side" - Canada has two languages, French and English. Everyone else conducting their business in English is as legally valid as the desire to do it in French. I'd support some civil disobedience there - elect representitives to the House of Commons who will only speak French, and refuse to vote unless the request is cast in French. This is compliance with the law without infringement on the agreed upon right of the people to speak one of the official languages of Canada.

I was told this recently and did a little research, snopes has a nice short article

I tend not to trust Snopes (because of the premise that I SHOULD trust Snopes) but I do trust the US English Foundation, who's goal is to promote English. They say the same thing. I'll be damned. Of course, the version I learned was different but I'll say the end result is the same.

Thanks!