When to complain?

[nealperkins]

So I ordered some White Labs WLP530, intending to make a 4L starter and brew in a couple days. The yeast shows up on 07/08 with a 'best before' date of 7/18, meaning I've got 61% of my yeast alive according to Mr. Malty. I did not ask for the yeast dating because it is a big operation.

So, it is 'legal'. However, if my retailer had told me, I would have just ordered 2 vials to meet my intended date and target volume. Now, I have to either halve my volume; or, wait to step up my volume.

I just got 61% of my product! A little communication would have been nice.

What's your opinion?

 

[Oscbert]

I would be irritated, but would get over it and make a starter. Probably wouldn't buy yeast from that company again.
You may be able to write the company and they may just send you a new fresh vial and you can keep the current one. Worth a shot...

 

[IffyG]

Mr Malty is nothing more than an estimate and since you are doing a start it's not big deal anyway. My personal opinion is if you are going to be that picky about the yeast you a have two options. 1) go to LHBS and inspect the yeast yourself or 2) call the vendor and get the date of the yeast they are going to ship you before placing the order. As long as you are getting yeast before the 'best by' date, you have no grounds to complain.

 

[Seven]

So I ordered some White Labs WLP530, intending to make a 4L starter and brew in a couple days.

Wouldn't you need more than a couple of days to step up to a 4L starter from one vial of yeast?

 

[cfonnes]

I have used yeast that is past the use by date and did not have any problems.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Wouldn't you need more than a couple of days to step up to a 4L starter from one vial of yeast?

it would be fermented out on my stirplate in 25 hrs...

 

[bigbeergeek]

Wouldn't you need more than a couple of days to step up to a 4L starter from one vial of yeast?

it would be fermented out on my stirplate in 24 hrs...

(whoops, double post)

 

[nealperkins]

Well, we're trying to make BETTER beer here and some precision is required.

Experience DEFINITELY demonstrates there is a BIG difference in the aging of the inoculation yeast.

At this dating the first step will probably go 2.5 days (that's continuous stirring and continuous oxygenating. BTW, if you let the yeast go a little past where you 'think' it is done, it clears much faster. I do decant almost all the beer.)

The second step - look the hell out...make damn sure you have the anti-foam handy (for a second/third dose). That one will take less than 24 hours. It will also drop clear very quickly in the fridge.

Here's the deal, at realistic dating, one step. At this dating two steps. Same price...no notice. Brew day delayed.

BTW, he's a good retailer...I like him.

 

[tesilential]

You should be fine to pitch that vial into the 4 liter starter. Hell I pitch smack packs straight into 1.06 OG worts all the time and they're great. I quit making starters unless I'm making a lager, then it's 4 L.

 

[nealperkins]

Well, I've used yeast older than this (months out of date) and no problems; but, looks like I've got a non-starter here. Absolutely zero activity after 48 hours. That never happened before. It's yeast abuse I tell you!! Bummer.

 

[Yooper]

Well, I've used yeast older than this (months out of date) and no problems; but, looks like I've got a non-starter here. Absolutely zero activity after 48 hours. That never happened before. It's yeast abuse I tell you!! Bummer.

It happens to me all the time- as yeast has to be shipped to me from a long way away. But it'll get going. 24 hours on a stirplate just isn't enough sometimes. I will go 36-48 hours on a stirplate with a slightly older yeast, with good results.

 

[Revvy]

I think new brewers sweat the dates on their yeast way too much.

If you make a starter, then the age of a yeast isn't really an issue. When you make a starter, and grow it, you're replicating more yeast to make up for any loss. You're making new, fresh yeast.

To me that means it doesn't really matter the age of the yeast, because you'll be pitching FRESHER yeast, yeast you grew yourself.

Bobby M did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.
The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

Even if you have a few still living cells, you can grow them....That's how we can harvest a huge starter (incrementally) from the dregs in a bottle of some commercial beers. You take those few living cells and grow them into more.

SO what if your vial has a supposed viability of x%? When you are making a starter with it you're going to be turning that amount into a ton MORE yeast anyway. You're going to be doubling or more the amount of yeast. So who really cares how much "seedstock" you have initially.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Well, I've used yeast older than this (months out of date) and no problems; but, looks like I've got a non-starter here. Absolutely zero activity after 48 hours. That never happened before. It's yeast abuse I tell you!! Bummer.

Did you take a gravity reading? I've had countless starters that appear to show zero signs of life: no krausen, no bubbles on the surface, no airlock activity (back before I jumped on the foil bandwagon). Crash cool it and take a gravity reading at the correct temperature. With an OG as low as yours, I'm sure some viable yeast are on the road to growth in there

 

[Vance71975]

So I ordered some White Labs WLP530, intending to make a 4L starter and brew in a couple days. The yeast shows up on 07/08 with a 'best before' date of 7/18, meaning I've got 61% of my yeast alive according to Mr. Malty. I did not ask for the yeast dating because it is a big operation.

So, it is 'legal'. However, if my retailer had told me, I would have just ordered 2 vials to meet my intended date and target volume. Now, I have to either halve my volume; or, wait to step up my volume.

I just got 61% of my product! A little communication would have been nice.

What's your opinion?

I wouldn't complain unless the yeast turns out to be dead.

 

[emjay]

LOL

Okay, 61% viability isn't bad. In fact, it's pretty good IMO. Although getting yeast so near its expiry date, not so nice.

Still, my experience set off some alarm bells in my head. 61% after 4 months? Doesn't sound right at all. So I double-checked myself, and yep, 61% wouldn't be so bad... if you were anywhere near that.

But you're not even close to that. Try 17%.

 

[samc]

Just buy liquid yeast, or for that matter any perishable supplies from stores with high turnover. Most of our local LHBS's have tons of liquid and fresh dates. In the case of an almost expired yeast they'd probably give me a discount on it if I asked and on expired ones they sell them cheaper. Even though most of us make starters, many brewers just dump the liquid in to the beer and have ok results.

So would I complain? No I'd just buy my yeast elsewhere or make sure to specify that you only want yeast that is xx days left or whatever floats your boat.

 

[rjwhite41]

I'm making a starter today with yeast that is 5 months old. It's been in my fridge for awhile so not entirely the LHBS fault, although it was probably nearly expired when I bought. Am I mad? Not at all. It's my fault for not checking it when I bought (although I still would have bought it) and it's my fault for not checking it prior to setting my brew date. So instead of brewing today, I'm making a starter and then I'll brew next week. Life goes on, I'll have fresh yeast when I brew.

 

[erikrocks]

THe same thing happened to me as I posted here.

It's my opinion that, when you pay $7+shipping for a vial of yeast, it shouldn't be that close to its "best buy" date. I understand that by stepping up your starters, the yeast will be fine. But yeast should be fresh; if a vial is two months old, it should be discounted. I wouldn't expect to have to step up a vial of yeast in order to brew a 1.050 beer.

I did complain, though the only thing that resulted was the fact that I won't order from that retailer again.

 

[nealperkins]

Hey, thanks for NOT missing the point. I paid the price for fresh yeast, didn't get that, instead I got a super slant...with extra costs and time for me.

Until those yeast take off and the pH begins to drop and the alcohol begins to rise, the starter is subject to infection.

...who said I was a new brewer?

 

[Scooby_Brew]

Nealperkins, your yeast wasn't expired so you got a good product. You can't expect to get a super fresh one-day-old yeast every time. It looks to me that you are just over-thinking it, and trying to make an absolutely "perfect" beer. Just make a 2L starter and then build it up to 4L if you want to (you don't need a 4L starter unless it's a super high OG). How about some RDWHAHB?

 

[TheMan]

I'll advise the same as I did to another similar thread. The yeast isn't expired so nothing wrong was really done.

Having said that, you can certainly contact the company you bought it from and let them know. Also let them know that if it continues you will not feel comfortable buying from them anymore. They can't help keep fresher yeast if they don't know their customers are disappointed in the first place. Then it's your decision to purchase from them or not.

 

[nealperkins]

Thanks for telling me what I can expect...appreciate that.
Let's see you don't know what beer I'm making and you don't know what size starter I have, but you do have advice for me. Geez.

 

[petep1980]

I hate ordering yeast in the mail for this reason.

 

[MalFet]

What's your opinion?

You're an odd duck, nealperkins. You make a public post asking for people's opinions, and then you get defensive and sarcastic when people give them to you.

The situation is actually quite simple. Manufacturers print an expiry date so that retailers and consumers have a explicit, objective boundary of when the yeast is considered good and when it is not. That's not how yeast vitality works of course, but short of breaking out the hemocytometer for every vial sold it's the best heuristic we've got. Pretty much all perishable goods are sold this way. If you want your yeast fresher (which is fully legitimate), it's on you to make that happen. Most HBS will tell you this kind of stuff over the phone or email. If you don't make that call, the default agreement is the expiry date.

Besides, your biggest threat to your yeast's health is not age, but the fact that you ordered yeast in the mail in July. The Mr. Malty estimations make so many assumptions as to be almost useless. Yeast stored properly for 3 months will have much better viability than yeast stored improperly for 3 weeks (or sitting on the back of a truck for 3 days).

 

[nealperkins]

Name calling now? I'm done with this thread. Thanks for all the help.

 

[heferly]

You have valid reasons to be upset with the yeast dates, but the hbs didn't do anything wrong...relax, you asked for advice, then don't like the advice you were given. Then you get snarky...if you don't like the advice, move on...either shop somewhere else, make a shipment note that you want fresher yeast, or keep rolling the dice

 

[IffyG]

The Mr. Malty estimations make so many assumptions as to be almost useless. Yeast stored properly for 3 months will have much better viability than yeast stored improperly for 3 weeks (or sitting on the back of a truck for 3 days).

This. I've never understood why people take a Mr. Malty estimation as fact. I know Jamil did a lot of work on that calculator, but since you really need to a do a starter with liquid yeast anyway, it's pretty much a gimmick IMO.

 

[wildwest450]

I love these threads. Complain on a forum about something none of us have any control over and then run off like a child when opinions are given.

Very simple, don't buy yeast online if you want it the day after it was made. Complain to the retailer, although you have no legitimate complaint.

_

 

[erikrocks]

Some of us have no alternative than to order yeast through the mail. When I do, I expect the yeast to be less than 2 months old.

The name calling and condescending replies are unnecessary and unacceptable.

 

[the_bird]

If people are going to be up in arms about two month old yeast (that's well before the expiration date and perfectly fine when you make a starter, as you should), the only real alternative is for the homebrew shops to severely restrict the number of different yeast strains that they stock.

How many "Belgian" strains does White Lab produce for homebrewers? There's at least a dozen. If you're basically saying that they have to sell everything within a couple weeks or toss it in the bin, they're going to pick one or two strains just to ensure high turnover. Same with all of the different German/Czech lager strains.