When to add acids?

[jmitchell3]

Ok, Water question. When should liquid acid (lactic or phosphoric) be added to the mash....prior to dough in and heating, after heating but prior to dough in, or after dough in?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I add acid (if needed, and ditto baking soda) to my strike water ahead of time, along with my chosen minerals.

 

[jwalk4]

In one of his books, Gordon Strong says to add acids immediately after dough in.

I'll have to double check and get back to you.

Edit: sorry it's salts he adds after dough in. Acids he adds before hand.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If you understand your water profile and grain bill and you are making a repeat batch (or if you have high confidence in your mash pH regulating software when going into a first attempt at a recipe), why not just have everything added to the strike water in advance?

 

[RedlegEd]

If you understand your water profile and grain bill and you are making a repeat batch (or if you have high confidence in your mash pH regulating software when going into a first attempt at a recipe), why not just have everything added to the strike water in advance?

+1^^^ this. If you wait until after dough in, it's highly unlikely you'll get complete distribution of the acid throughout your mash. As @Silver_Is_Money said, "why not just have everything added to the strike water in advance?" and make sure your additions are thoroughly mixed into the strike water before you add your grain. Ed

 

[jwalk4]

If you understand your water profile and grain bill and you are making a repeat batch (or if you have high confidence in your mash pH regulating software when going into a first attempt at a recipe), why not just have everything added to the strike water in advance?

I assume because many of the brewing salts are insoluble at the ph of some water (either hard or soft), but when the mash ph drinks it to within a range of 5.1-5.5 then the solubility increases.

It may well be tomato / toe-mah-toe

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

I use Distilled water so I add all salts to my strike water and then monitor pH very closely for the first 15 minutes of the mash to ensure I stay in the range I need

 

[bajaedition]

your mash PH will be affected by the grains put in it, so add after about 10 or so minutes for a great result.

 

[RM-MN]

your mash PH will be affected by the grains put in it, so add after about 10 or so minutes for a great result.

That would be fine if the mash hadn't already started conversion and be well on its way before the 10 minutes. For people who get a good crush on the grain the conversion may well be more than half over in 10 minutes.

 

[Weezy]

your mash PH will be affected by the grains put in it, so add after about 10 or so minutes for a great result.

That would be fine if the mash hadn't already started conversion and be well on its way before the 10 minutes. For people who get a good crush on the grain the conversion may well be more than half over in 10 minutes.

Sad, I suppose, but I believe these are both true. The average Joe Homebrewer runs the risk of over treating water if you add everything up front. Like Palmer said, precision is more important for temp control. pH just needs to be in the range. I add about half of the phosphoric acid that I think i'll need to the strike water, dough in, mix well, wait 3-4 minutes and check pH, then add more acid if needed.

 

[bajaedition]

That would be fine if the mash hadn't already started conversion and be well on its way before the 10 minutes. For people who get a good crush on the grain the conversion may well be more than half over in 10 minutes.

I take it you dough in at conversion temperatures.
I dough in at 96 degrees F and do 3 other rest.
while doing a short rest a in the phytase zone is not going give much result, it gives me time to adjust before ramping up to the next rest.

Even then, If I just wanted to do a single rest infusion (IMHO why Bother) I would still wait until the grains were fully soaked and the mash was fully stable before trying to modify the PH.

 

[Weezy]

I take it you dough in at conversion temperatures.
I dough in at 96 degrees F and do 3 other rest.
while doing a short rest a in the phytase zone is not going give much result, it gives me time to adjust before ramping up to the next rest.

Even then, If I just wanted to do a single rest infusion (IMHO why Bother) I would still wait until the grains were fully soaked and the mash was fully stable before trying to modify the PH.

You're missing his point. Conversion happens quickly once the starches are extracted. Phytase, proteases, etc rests are making the starches available earlier in the mash schedule. Do you have any starch left for alpha amylase if your slowly ramping temps??? Decoction mashes usually include quick temp changes.

 

[bajaedition]

Yes I do

I have 10 pounds of grain sitting in 18.75 quarts of water at 130 degrees and dump in 7.5 quarts at boiling, creating a mash at 152 degrees, where did I miss the starches for Alpha Amalase

 

[Weezy]

Yes I do

I have 10 pounds of grain sitting in 18.75 quarts of water at 130 degrees and dump in 7.5 quarts at boiling, creating a mash at 152 degrees, where did I miss the starches for Alpha Amalase

You said "ramping up."

 

[z-bob]

I add calcium chloride and acids to the strike water before heating it. I mix gypsum into the dry grist.

Don't know if I'm doing it right, but it seems to be working

 

[sasky7777]

Unless you have some top notch repeatability and the same grain source water, etc. Won't the acid have to be adjusted after dough in? You can get close with calculators and experience, but won't it need a measurement and adjustment after the grain is added? The other salts should be able to be added ahead of time in the strike water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Using RO water as a source I treat all of my brewing water at the same time, both the mash and sparge. I also wait 20-25 minutes after making adjustments before taking pH measurements, to allow the water, or mash, to reach equilibrium.

The mix of grains in your mash, and their DI pH values, interact with the strike water to change the pH of the mash. As an example, depending on the grain bill, I have measured a strike water pH of 4.75, which produced a mash pH of 5.39, after 20 minutes of mash time; sampled at 77F.

When you try to modify your water properties, after cooling and taking a mash pH reading it's already too late. The best you could do in that situation is to take notes and apply them the next time you brew the same recipe.

 

[bajaedition]

You said "ramping up."

well the other method is lifting the grain bag, ramping to 155 and putting the grain bag back in, settles to 151ish

any more questions

 

[bajaedition]

Unless you have some top notch repeatability and the same grain source water, etc. Won't the acid have to be adjusted after dough in? You can get close with calculators and experience, but won't it need a measurement and adjustment after the grain is added? The other salts should be able to be added ahead of time in the strike water.

even the weight of grain and the types of grain have effect on PH

 

[bajaedition]

When you try to modify your water properties, after cooling and taking a mash pH reading it's already too late. The best you could do in that situation is to take notes and apply them the next time you brew the same recipe.

Notes Notes Notes

Detailed notes

The more the better

Notes Notes Notes

I fully agree

 

[xpops]

I add acid (if needed, and ditto baking soda) to my strike water ahead of time, along with my chosen minerals.

ditto. never had an issue with this method.

 

[xpops]

Using RO water as a source I treat all of my brewing water at the same time, both the mash and sparge. I also wait 20-25 minutes after making adjustments before taking pH measurements, to allow the water, or mash, to reach equilibrium.

The mix of grains in your mash, and their DI pH values, interact with the strike water to change the pH of the mash. As an example, depending on the grain bill, I have measured a strike water pH of 4.75, which produced a mash pH of 5.39, after 20 minutes of mash time; sampled at 77F.

When you try to modify your water properties, after cooling and taking a mash pH reading it's already too late. The best you could do in that situation is to take notes and apply them the next time you brew the same recipe.

if starting with RO, i thought you should not be acidifying sparge water? or adding anything that increases alkalinity like chalk, lime, baking soda, etc to sparge water either?

or if you're using acid and any of those salts, do you then treat your mash and sparge water differently?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

if starting with RO, i thought you should not be acidifying sparge water? or adding anything that increases alkalinity like chalk, lime, baking soda, etc to sparge water either?

or if you're using acid and any of those salts, do you then treat your mash and sparge water differently?

Nope, every batch of brewing water is prepared using the same approach. Make 15 gallons of RO water the night before, calculate my mash pH based on grains, minerals and acid, then treat the RO water. Take a room temperature pH sample after 25-30 minutes and write it down as a 'pre-mash pH' value.

The next day 25-30 minutes into the mash, take a pH sample, cool to room temperature and compare the results. Sparge using the brewing water remaining from the initial 15 gallons of treated brewing water. As long as the grain DI pH values used in the calculations were accurate, the actual mash pH value should be within +-0.15 of the calculated pH value.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I don't Chase ph. I calculate my needs with Bru'n water, add salts to strike and sparge water and acid with acidulated malt. Then measure and tweak the next time (but I've been really close so no tweaks needed).

I prefer RO water to start. The tools out there did very well in that case in my experience.

 

[xpops]

I don't Chase ph. I calculate my needs with Bru'n water, add salts to strike and sparge water and acid with acidulated malt. Then measure and tweak the next time (but I've been really close so no tweaks needed).

I prefer RO water to start. The tools out there did very well in that case in my experience.

have you ever measured pH to compare to brun'water guestimation? it's suprisingly accurate! (so far...)

i just recently purchased a pH meter and was very excited to test it out to two batches i was recently brewing. Both beers measured exactly where brun'water had calculated, about 15 mins into the mash. pretty impressive.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

have you ever measured pH to compare to brun'water guestimation? it's suprisingly accurate! (so far...)

i just recently purchased a pH meter and was very excited to test it out to two batches i was recently brewing. Both beers measured exactly where brun'water had calculated, about 15 mins into the mash. pretty impressive.

Yep, I've been getting great results so far.