What's your preferred mash pH target?

[The_Bishop]

Mash pH of a 100% base malt in distilled water measured at room temperature will in fact be around 5.8. This was reported by Ray Daniels in Designing Great Beers.

This isn't always true. Different base malts have different buffering/acidifying capability and they don't all measure 5.8 in a distilled water mash. This is what makes predicting mash pH with software so challenging. It's not a constant even with the same grain line, it'll vary year to year and crop to crop.

 

[Big Monk]

Alright. Kids are washed and put in bed and I'm stationary.

I just want to say that I'm not here to argue for the sake of arguing or to try and be right. I love talking about beer. I think that if we take a second to get aligned that this could be a great discussion and very informative.

Let's lay out some talking points and see if we agree, and if we don't well know where we diverge and we can zero in on that. Can we agree on the following points:

1.) Room temperature pH measurements are an industry standard for measurement
2.) As such, when ranges and target values are quoted, they are at room temperature
3.) We can safely say that 5.2-5.6 encompasses the most common target values

Can we agree on these points?

I'm searching through the various forum posts, Kunze, Fix and DeClerck right now and if we can agree on the above points we can start to put a sort of narrative together that we can agree on.

 

[dmtaylor]

This isn't always true. Different base malts have different buffering/acidifying capability and they don't all measure 5.8 in a distilled water mash. This is what makes predicting mash pH with software so challenging. It's not a constant even with the same grain line, it'll vary year to year and crop to crop.

Valid point, Bishop.

 

[dmtaylor]

Alright. Kids are washed and put in bed and I'm stationary.

I just want to say that I'm not here to argue for the sake of arguing or to try and be right. I love talking about beer. I think that if we take a second to get aligned that this could be a great discussion and very informative.

Let's lay out some talking points and see if we agree, and if we don't well know where we diverge and we can zero in on that. Can we agree on the following points:

1.) Room temperature pH measurements are an industry standard for measurement
2.) As such, when ranges and target values are quoted, they are at room temperature
3.) We can safely say that 5.2-5.6 encompasses the most common target values

Can we agree on these points?

I'm searching through the various forum posts, Kunze, Fix and DeClerck right now and if we can agree on the above points we can start to put a sort of narrative together that we can agree on.

Sounds right to me, D.

Check also my conversational references from previous page.

 

[rabeb25]

All my weyermann has been 5.9-5.99 this year, that includes pilsner, pale ale, munich(s), vienna, and wheat. My rahr sacks were in the mid 5.9's as well.

I mash every beer at 5.2, I do this because the professional brewing literature tells me to and because I like the attributes from it. There is long lists of why mashing at 5.2 is advantageous. There is a prerequisite for mashing everything at 5.2 though, that being low oxygen brewing. Low oxygen brewing will not make your stouts acrid, or whatever other issues you have will flavor and mashing pH's. If there were exceptions (say stouts) I am pretty sure the literature (again MULTIPLE sources) would have said something. The common thread between all the professional brewing texts is Low oxygen brewing, so thats how I am making said assumptions. I have 2 Schwarzbiers on tap right now mashed at 5.2 and they are nothing short of glorious.

Bryan

 

[dmtaylor]

I'll just lay this out on the table for anyone interested.....

For grins and giggles, I just did something I have never done before... I have in fact been tracking various data on a spreadsheet for every all-grain batch I have ever brewed since 2005.... and I just plotted mash pH vs. final beer quality for >60 all-grain batches from 2005-2016:

All mash pH values are reported at room temperature, with more than half calculated by trusted software that has reflected true values, and nearly half verified by actual measurements on paper test strips to the best of my ability.

I have always maintained a goal for mash pH of 5.3, plus or minus a little, while knowing and expecting that in many cases especially for lighter colored beers without a lot of specialty malts, it is very difficult to get much below 5.5 without addition of acid or acidulated malt, which I have done only once or twice in my career, opting instead for use of distilled water and a lot of CaCl2 and gypsum and light crystal malts instead to try to get pH down to a maximum of 5.5.

Analysis of the New Plot:

I don't have a lot of data for mash pH outside of 5.2 to 5.5, which makes sense because I always aim to achieve a pH within that range. For most accurate results, I would need to run more experiments outside of that range on purpose, which I may or may not do in future. Anyway, looking at the quality scores >50:

At a mash pH=5.2, it appears that my beers were slightly more good than bad.

At mash pH=5.3, about the same as at 5.2.

At mash pH=5.4, clearly my beers are a lot higher quality on average, with the vast majority having a quality score >50.

At mash pH=5.5, ditto, mostly great beers.

Conclusion:

Perhaps my goal for mash pH of 5.3 has been unnecessary. Perhaps I should instead be shooting for 5.4 to 5.5 for every beer.

Interesting... Very interesting.

Additional Background on "Quality":

My method of determining a "beer quality" rating is admittedly pseudo-scientific, but also very reasonable, I think, as it is in fact a mathematical normalized weighted average of three data points, combined in a manner that accounts for independent objective quantitative data while also including some more personal subjective, qualitative judgment. The three factors include: 1) how "yummy" I personally think the final beer is overall, 2) how close it comes to the style that I was trying to make based on highest medal won in competition (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th runnerup, or zero), and 3) how well it scored in competitions on average (if entered). If no independent data is available, then I assume a nominal competition score of 29 (out of 50) and either 3rd, 4th, or zeroeth place based on how well I believe it might do in real competition. All this stuff is included, numbered, and normalized, and results in a single "beer quality" score that is roughly on a scale of 1 to 100 (my actual lowest score is 3 and the highest is 93, with most around 50, so it really does work). If it adds any credibility, I am a Certified BJCP judge with 10 years judging experience and 18 years homebrewing experience. Why do I do all this? It's a way for me to gauge my own thinking vs. independent objective sources and recalibrate, i.e., helps me get to know myself and my own biases; not to mention that it helps me come up with awesome charts like the one you see here. And as a math geek, it's just fun! Yeah, I'm sick, I know.

Cheers all. I don't know if any of this is useful at all, but maybe.

 

[rabeb25]

I'll buy into that, I used to target 5.4.-5.5 as it produced my "best" beers as well. When I went to LOB, I found those same beers to be muddy.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'll buy into that, I used to target 5.4.-5.5 as it produced my "best" beers as well. When I went to LOB, I found those same beers to be muddy.

Cool! So for those of us brewing the "normal American" way, we should perhaps indeed be aiming for 5.4-5.5. And if we should ever try the LODO method, then it makes sense to bring this down to 5.2. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience between these brewing methods.

 

[JohnConnor]

Cool! So for those of us brewing the "normal American" way, we should perhaps indeed be aiming for 5.4-5.5. And if we should ever try the LODO method, then it makes sense to bring this down to 5.2. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience between these brewing methods.

Sorry, I haven't comment on this but I am following. The 5.4/5.5 is mash pH or room temp pH? I'm trying to tie this to my bru n water sheet. I don't have a pH meter yet so I'm going with estimates at this point...

 

[dmtaylor]

Sorry, I haven't comment on this but I am following. The 5.4/5.5 is mash pH or room temp pH? I'm trying to tie this to my bru n water sheet. I don't have a pH meter yet so I'm going with estimates at this point...

5.4-5.5 at room temperature. Measured directly in the mash at mash temperatures, the desired range should be closer to roughly 5.2-5.3 (and that, then, is what I shall aim for in the future).

For whatever else it's worth, I just made a porter where I measured 5.1 directly in the hot mash, and this porter is not at all acrid or acidic, not at all. It turned out great.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It looks like your peak success has come at pH 5.25. Not far from Scott's 5.2.

 

[z-bob]

I just punch 5.4 in the Brewers Friend water calculator, and play with the gypsum, calcium chloride, acid malt, etc. for my recipe until it comes out right and the sulfate:chloride isn't ridiculous. Since I started using acid malt, I'm getting by with more tapwater and less RO water.

I haven't actually tested with a pH meter yet because it seems to be working.

 

[rabeb25]

5.4-5.5 at room temperature. Measured directly in the mash at mash temperatures, the desired range should be closer to roughly 5.2-5.3 (and that, then, is what I shall aim for in the future).

For whatever else it's worth, I just made a porter where I measured 5.1 directly in the hot mash, and this porter is not at all acrid or acidic, not at all. It turned out great.

What meter are you using for a mash temp reading?

 

[rabeb25]

It looks like your peak success has come at pH 5.25. Not far from Scott's 5.2.

5.25 is 5.2..

 

[Big Monk]

So I gathered my wits last night and re-read some of your posts and did some digging, so here we go:



First, I think we can all agree that "by convention" (Kai/Delange), all reported pH values are at room temperature. DeClerck reports this all the way back in the 1957 1st Edition of "A Textbook of Brewing":



"When pH is mentioned in connection with mashing, it always refers to the cooled wort."



He also has a table showing various temperatures where pH was measured in a distilled water mash that, while a bit dated, gives an approximation of the ∆ pH:



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376496.401299.jpg


Using interpolation we can see that at 21 °C, we would have approximately 0.3 difference in mash temp pH vs. Room temp pH. I just include it for discussion and a bit of historical context.



There are many threads detailing why the sample temperature is irrelevant or accounted for by convention (i.e. pH optima always reported as room temp), and I list them here only for reference, as many of you already have read/posted these here:



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=400490



https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0



https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=6168.0



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=460499



http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/



As for 5.2 as a desirable pH value, I was never intending to give bad advice to anyone, on the contrary, I have read a ton of references to its positive effects, as well as experienced positive effects from it.



With the above references to pH reporting convention in mind, let's investigate 5.2 as a desirable target.



DeClerck is again another early reference to this value. Here is an excerpt from "A Textbook of Brewing":



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376519.547541.jpg



Fix chimes in during "Principles of Brewing Science" as well:



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376541.220637.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376550.224238.jpg



Notice that Hind's observations all the way back in 1950 show that amylase activity is greatest at 5.2.



There is of course the previously posted Kunze excerpt, and now with the convention of reporting at room temp in mind, he all but begs you to mash at 5.2:



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376582.473722.jpg



Now I refuse, for even a second, to say that those of you mashing dark beers at 5.6 are wrong. I can't and won't do it. I will however say that mashing that high seems to be isolated to dark beers exclusively, and appears as a stark outlier to much of the literature that states 5.2-5.4 being the generally accepted range.



I know that AJ has pointed out before that he mashes dark beers in this range with no issues:



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6871426&postcount=8



I have always wondered why 5.6 became an accepted value. I did not however mean to insult anyone when I said:

I'll tell you this much, if you need to raise your pH to avoid an acrid, thin and all together unpleasant beer, then you are treating the symptoms rather than the problem.

I just wonder whether there is a different solution that will allow people to get the known benefits of mashing lower without what seems to be a common issue with acrid, ashy flavors.



As Bryan said concerning his Schwarzbier, and as I have said concerning my past RISs, 5.2 has been nothing less than friendly to dark beers for us.

 

[mabrungard]

Kunze is an excellent resource. It's especially focused on continental styles. A pH of 5.2 has advantages for most lagers since lager yeast tends to acidify less than ale strains and the resulting beer pH tends to be higher. However, it would be foolish to apply that pH recommendation to all beers. As noted above, there are styles that clearly benefit from higher mashing pH.

This is particularly true in roasty beers and somewhat true for hoppy ales. Citing schwartzbier (or dunkel) is not valid since they are lagers and they are not roasty. A single mashing pH specification is not appropriate in my opinion.

 

[Big Monk]

I guess I'm just curious as to what drives this condition, i.e. raising pH for dark beers. I've brewed RISs and other Stouts at Low pH with no issues so I have no frame of reference for this. They tasted excellent. I'm very excited to brew a Low Oxygen RIS.

However, it would be foolish to apply that pH recommendation to all beers. As noted above, there are styles that clearly benefit from higher mashing pH. A single mashing pH specification is not appropriate in my opinion.

I think I can say with very reasonable assurance that you don't mean any offense by this. I generally dislike words like foolish in describing something that has worked for other people and I typically try very hard if I can help it to avoid language like that.

It just seems odd to me that dark beers are such an outlier. There also seems to be no other evidence or literature other than, "my roast beers just taste better at 5.6." Which I am not knocking in any way, shape or form. It just puts my antennae up.

 

[dmtaylor]

What meter are you using for a mash temp reading?

17 bucks...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDC4GQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[The_Bishop]

RPIScotty, I would like to point out that when you spoke about using a mash pH of 5.2, you were saying that the measurement was at room temperature. If that's the case, then your pH at mashing temperatures is in the 4.9 range, which is low.

I believe that the section on pH in Kunze's bit there is referring to pH measured at mashing temperatures. This is where things get a little sideways when referring to documentation on mash pH readings, unless the author of said work specifically states the temperature of the sample when measuring.

I'd like to clarify something that I may have overstated. A low mash PH in a beer with a significant proportion of roasted grains doesn't make the beer undrinkable. It does tend to give the perception of a thinner mouthfeel, and to my palate a sharp, dry and acrid note in the roasted flavors that I'd rather avoid.

While a mash pH of exactly 5.2 enhances enzyme activity there are other considerations. Beer flavor and mouthfeel are equally important in regards to formulating a recipe. Certain flavors can be enhanced by manipulating the wort pH, and other undesirable flavors may be enhanced if the pH is too low or too high. Hop bittering and perception is another consideration for certain styles of beer, and it is definitely impacted by wort pH, which is in turn influenced by mash pH.

Even though enzyme activity might not be 'optimal' at a slightly higher mash pH, it's still sufficient to convert the starches in the grain we're all working with.

Brewing is as much 'art' as it is 'science.' There may not be a cohesive, scientific reason that big roasty beers are perceived as 'better' with a higher mash pH; it just works out that way.

Your results may be different due to any number of factors. Less or different types of roasted malt in the grist, for one. Perhaps you prefer the dryer/sharper roast character. Could be any number of things.

Tell you what; when I hit the lottery I'll gather us all in a big 'beer lab' and we can run experiments until we're tired of them.

 

[Big Monk]

RPIScotty, I would like to point out that when you spoke about using a mash pH of 5.2, you were saying that the measurement was at room temperature. If that's the case, then your pH at mashing temperatures is in the 4.9 range, which is low.

I believe that the section on pH in Kunze's bit there is referring to pH measured at mashing temperatures. This is where things get a little sideways when referring to documentation on mash pH readings, unless the author of said work specifically states the temperature of the sample when measuring.

I'd like to clarify something that I may have overstated. A low mash PH in a beer with a significant proportion of roasted grains doesn't make the beer undrinkable. It does tend to give the perception of a thinner mouthfeel, and to my palate a sharp, dry and acrid note in the roasted flavors that I'd rather avoid.

While a mash pH of exactly 5.2 enhances enzyme activity there are other considerations. Beer flavor and mouthfeel are equally important in regards to formulating a recipe. Certain flavors can be enhanced by manipulating the wort pH, and other undesirable flavors may be enhanced if the pH is too low or too high. Hop bittering and perception is another consideration for certain styles of beer, and it is definitely impacted by wort pH, which is in turn influenced by mash pH.

Even though enzyme activity might not be 'optimal' at a slightly higher mash pH, it's still sufficient to convert the starches in the grain we're all working with.

Brewing is as much 'art' as it is 'science.' There may not be a cohesive, scientific reason that big roasty beers are perceived as 'better' with a higher mash pH; it just works out that way.

Your results may be different due to any number of factors. Less or different types of roasted malt in the grist, for one. Perhaps you prefer the dryer/sharper roast character. Could be any number of things.

Tell you what; when I hit the lottery I'll gather us all in a big 'beer lab' and we can run experiments until we're tired of them.

Convention is pretty clear and agreed upon as reported pH and recommended pH optima are at room temperature. Going all the way back to DeClerck this is the case.

So in that sense, mashing at from 5.2-5.6 as is most recommended across many texts and by many authors means mash temp pH of 5.0-5.4.

Also, I don't get those flavors you describe. I get a full, flavorful, roasty beer. I do however use less roast malt than most. So there may be something to that.

Kai has pointed out that the whole mash temp pH vs room temp pH argument is irrelevant because by convention we are always talking about room temp pH for reporting measurements and optimum pH.

You have me thinking about a thought experiment:

Say you and I set out to brew a RIS. We are going to brew together and when complete taste the two beers together.

I am going to target 5.2 room temp pH and my recipe will be as follows:

80% Weyermann Pale
7% Flaked Oats
3% Caramunich II
3% Special B
3.5% Roasted Barley
3.5% Chocolate

You are going to target 5.6 room temp pH and your recipe will be very similar except you reduce base malt and increase roast malt to 14%.

We taste the beers together and decide they share a similar flavor profile despite their differences.

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation but the concept interests me because it seems to reflect what we are saying to one another.

I was also thinking about a stout I did about a year ago that was very similar to what I described above. The DI pH of the Weyermann malt was 5.90 so with that recipe I actually had to acidify with a bit of acid malt to get to 5.25. It was full flavored with smooth roast. Just delicious.

I wonder if the amounts of roast Malts typically used in these beers, coupled with the use of NaHCO3 to add alkalinity has something to do with aiming for 5.6 as well. I know that when we were developing and implementing the Sauergut calculations in our spreadsheet, we notice anomalous behavior of the Sauergut when NaHCO3 was present.

 

[dmtaylor]

RPIScotty, I would like to point out that when you spoke about using a mash pH of 5.2, you were saying that the measurement was at room temperature. If that's the case, then your pH at mashing temperatures is in the 4.9 range, which is low.

Not again........

I think some of us are going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree with RPIScotty that per every reference I have ever seen, including statements from Kai himself, the standard convention is STP, always and everywhere. Any assumption otherwise is... just... wrong.

 

[The_Bishop]

Convention is pretty clear and agreed upon as reported pH and recommended pH optima are at room temperature. Going all the way back to DeClerck this is the case.

So in that sense, mashing at from 5.2-5.6 as is most recommended across many texts and by many authors means mash temp pH of 5.0-5.4.

Also, I don't get those flavors you describe. I get a full, flavorful, roasty beer. I do however use less roast malt than most. So there may be something to that.

Kai has pointed out that the whole mash temp pH vs room temp pH argument is irrelevant because by convention we are always talking about room temp pH for reporting measurements and optimum pH.

You have me thinking about a thought experiment:

Say you and I set out to brew a RIS. We are going to brew together and when complete taste the two beers together.

I am going to target 5.2 room temp pH and my recipe will be as follows:

80% Weyermann Pale
7% Flaked Oats
3% Caramunich II
3% Special B
3.5% Roasted Barley
3.5% Chocolate

You are going to target 5.6 room temp pH and your recipe will be very similar except you reduce base malt and increase roast malt to 14%.

We taste the beers together and decide they share a similar flavor profile despite their differences.

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation but the concept interests me because it seems to reflect what we are saying to one another.

I was also thinking about a stout I did about a year ago that was very similar to what I described above. The DI pH of the Weyermann malt was 5.90 so with that recipe I actually had to acidify with a bit of acid malt to get to 5.25. It was full flavored with smooth roast. Just delicious.

I wonder if the amounts of roast Malts typically used in these beers, coupled with the use of NaHCO3 to add alkalinity has something to do with aiming for 5.6 as well. I know that when we were developing and implementing the Sauergut calculations in our spreadsheet, we notice anomalous behavior of the Sauergut when NaHCO3 was present.

I must have missed the exchange regarding mash pH temperature; my apologies.

Looking at the grain bill in your proposed thought experiment definitely shows a difference in regards to the recipe formulation. If I'm remembering right (not home near my notes/library) most stouts run in the 10% range for roasted grains (sometimes higher), the ratio depending on the intensity (degrees lovibond) of the roast.

Your recipe doesn't contain any black barley. A fair spread of recipes call for it's use; I don't use it often and when I do, it's sparingly. But I think there's a direct correlation in the darkness of the roast, the pH of the mash/wort, and the finished flavor of the beer. Perhaps the lower pH of the mash is extracting an undesirable flavor compound that's below the taste threshold when the roasted grains are used sparingly, or perhaps not present in any appreciable amount when the roast isn't as dark.

 

[Big Monk]

I must have missed the exchange regarding mash pH temperature; my apologies.

Looking at the grain bill in your proposed thought experiment definitely shows a difference in regards to the recipe formulation. If I'm remembering right (not home near my notes/library) most stouts run in the 10% range for roasted grains (sometimes higher), the ratio depending on the intensity (degrees lovibond) of the roast.

Your recipe doesn't contain any black barley. A fair spread of recipes call for it's use; I don't use it often and when I do, it's sparingly. But I think there's a direct correlation in the darkness of the roast, the pH of the mash/wort, and the finished flavor of the beer. Perhaps the lower pH of the mash is extracting an undesirable flavor compound that's below the taste threshold when the roasted grains are used sparingly, or perhaps not present in any appreciable amount when the roast isn't as dark.

You are definitely following my logic.

It may be that playing with the Stout recipe convention may be in order for mashing lower. If all else is relatively similar, i.e. if you and I use varying levels of roast malt amount and intensity, but get similar flavors, it may just mean that if you want to mash at 5.2-5.3 that you need to play with ingredients a bit.

Personally, it's roasted barley and chocolate malt for me, along with a mix of higher cara malts. I have seen recipes as high as 14-15% roast malt. Maybe that is where you wan tot mash higher.

What i'm trying to research casually is the driver behind that.

 

[dmtaylor]

I dunno about the rest of ya'll, but I often reserve my baking soda addition, if any, for the boil and not the mash. It would probably take quite a bit baking soda to get the pH up to 5.5-5.6 or whatever folks were quoting previously, to the point where I'd be very concerned as to the adverse flavor impacts of that much sodium. And I don't use chalk ever, I don't own any and don't think I want to. On my most recent porter, mash pH was so low that I did add 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the mash, and even then I only got it up to 5.3. Guess I could have used more, but like I said, I'd be concerned about too much sodium. It was a very black beer indeed, must be in the 30-40 SRM range, which I didn't intend but that's what I got. Blacker than midnight. Usually it's not that dark, but this time I used a goofy combination of Carafa III and Chocolate Wheat based on just what I had sitting in the basement to use up, and I might have screwed up the amounts somehow. Usually I would have used good ole chocolate and black patent, but why buy any if I have the other stuff on hand already. Long story short, it all worked out, but I'm still glad I didn't increase pH way up to 5.6 or something like that. Baking soda is NOT tasty stuff.

I guess I should ask...

What do the rest of you use to increase pH when you deem necessary?

 

[jmark]

I use Pickling Lime... added directly to the mash after dough-in... small amounts work wonders.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I am curious about pH and efficiency (I think it was mentioned waaay back there before things got derailed a little...)
Specifically I have never messed w/ water adjustments or pH but have been looking at them as the likely culprit for my abysmally low efficiency since switching to BIAB. Come to think of it my efficiency has been off since moving to Colorado but I noticed a more significant drop after switching. I am double milling my grain and have it cranked waaay down so crush is awesome but still getting 60%. Are there any pH strips that give reasonably accurate readings or do I need to get a meter? Recommendations for specific brands/ makes/ models of either that you have personally had good luck with? I don't mind investing money in good brewing equipment but I'd prefer to keep it under $20 if possible until I figure out if pH is even my problem

 

[dmtaylor]

Are there any pH strips that give reasonably accurate readings or do I need to get a meter? Recommendations for specific brands/ makes/ models of either that you have personally had good luck with? I don't mind investing money in good brewing equipment but I'd prefer to keep it under $20 if possible until I figure out if pH is even my problem

Copy/paste from previous page:

17 bucks...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDC4GQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Reliable pH paper costs more than a decent pH meter. ColorpHast is about the only paper that is trustworthy, with the drawback (as I understand it) that it reads consistently about 0.3 units low. As long as you understand this, it is workable, but terribly expensive.

 

[rhys333]

.

 

[Big Monk]

I dunno about the rest of ya'll, but I often reserve my baking soda addition, if any, for the boil and not the mash. It would probably take quite a bit baking soda to get the pH up to 5.5-5.6 or whatever folks were quoting previously, to the point where I'd be very concerned as to the adverse flavor impacts of that much sodium. And I don't use chalk ever, I don't own any and don't think I want to. On my most recent porter, mash pH was so low that I did add 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the mash, and even then I only got it up to 5.3. Guess I could have used more, but like I said, I'd be concerned about too much sodium. It was a very black beer indeed, must be in the 30-40 SRM range, which I didn't intend but that's what I got. Blacker than midnight. Usually it's not that dark, but this time I used a goofy combination of Carafa III and Chocolate Wheat based on just what I had sitting in the basement to use up, and I might have screwed up the amounts somehow. Usually I would have used good ole chocolate and black patent, but why buy any if I have the other stuff on hand already. Long story short, it all worked out, but I'm still glad I didn't increase pH way up to 5.6 or something like that. Baking soda is NOT tasty stuff.

I guess I should ask...

What do the rest of you use to increase pH when you deem necessary?

When I made my custom "BLAM" spreadsheet for brewing monastic beers, I didn't even include the bicarbonate values in my Belgian water profiles section. In fact, I only have spaces in the mineral section for Gypsum, Epsom, CaCl and Canning salt. I don't have any situations where I'm trying to increase pH. Due to the fact that I only have spaces in the water calcs (in my custom sheet) to acidify with Sauermalz or Sauergut, I don't even track bicarbonate anywhere on the sheet.

With many of the Weyermann base Malts being more basic than others (5.8-6.0), I would most likely be trying to acidify even roasty beers.

 

[The_Bishop]

Copy/paste from previous page:

17 bucks...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDC4GQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I know you have strong feelings about this and have an affinity for inexpensive meters, but in my experience those meters are about as accurate as using your finger as a thermometer.

In some cases, you get what you pay for.

 

[dmtaylor]

I know you have strong feelings about this and have an affinity for inexpensive meters, but in my experience those meters are about as accurate as using your finger as a thermometer.

In some cases, you get what you pay for.

But if it consistently measures 4.01 in a 4.01 standard buffer solution, and 6.86 in a 6.86 standard buffer solution, and you can go back and forth and it reads accurately, then how could it be inaccurate?!

If a really cheap thermometer consistently reads 216 F in boiling water and 36 F in ice water, and you can go back and forth and it always reads the same, is it a piece of junk that you would not advocate buying or keeping?

The key here is whether the instrument is calibratable. If you can calibrate it and it reads with consistent precision........

Peace, out.

 

[The_Bishop]

You are definitely following my logic.

It may be that playing with the Stout recipe convention may be in order for mashing lower. If all else is relatively similar, i.e. if you and I use varying levels of roast malt amount and intensity, but get similar flavors, it may just mean that if you want to mash at 5.2-5.3 that you need to play with ingredients a bit.

Personally, it's roasted barley and chocolate malt for me, along with a mix of higher cara malts. I have seen recipes as high as 14-15% roast malt. Maybe that is where you wan tot mash higher.

What i'm trying to research casually is the driver behind that.

I'd like to know the 'why' of it as well, but the absence of a lab for testing purposes makes that difficult.

The way I see it, in accordance to what you're saying is:

Higher quantity/darker roasted grain - Raise mash pH
Lower quantity/lighter roasted grain - Lower mash pH

For me, modified with the caveat: Adjust according to taste.

I dunno about the rest of ya'll, but I often reserve my baking soda addition, if any, for the boil and not the mash. It would probably take quite a bit baking soda to get the pH up to 5.5-5.6 or whatever folks were quoting previously, to the point where I'd be very concerned as to the adverse flavor impacts of that much sodium. And I don't use chalk ever, I don't own any and don't think I want to. On my most recent porter, mash pH was so low that I did add 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the mash, and even then I only got it up to 5.3. Guess I could have used more, but like I said, I'd be concerned about too much sodium. It was a very black beer indeed, must be in the 30-40 SRM range, which I didn't intend but that's what I got. Blacker than midnight. Usually it's not that dark, but this time I used a goofy combination of Carafa III and Chocolate Wheat based on just what I had sitting in the basement to use up, and I might have screwed up the amounts somehow. Usually I would have used good ole chocolate and black patent, but why buy any if I have the other stuff on hand already. Long story short, it all worked out, but I'm still glad I didn't increase pH way up to 5.6 or something like that. Baking soda is NOT tasty stuff.

I guess I should ask...

What do the rest of you use to increase pH when you deem necessary?

I generally speaking don't use much baking soda when I need to raise mash pH. It's usually less than 1-2 grams, when I rarely need it. I also have pickling lime that I'll use if I need the calcium and want to avoid the sodium, although I find small traces of sodium tend to help beer flavor.

I can't imagine having to add enough baking soda to hit the flavor threshold!

 

[dmtaylor]

My initial pH in that last batch was seriously in the friggin 4s, at room temperature. It's jet black colorwise. I think my Lovibonds were way darker than I'd assumed. And the darker it gets, the more acidic it is in the mash. John Palmer had a really nice article about some experiments in this regard in a recent issue of BYO. The conclusion I got from the article: it might be wise to reserve some or all of the darkest roasted grains for AFTER the BOIL for best flavor results... not to mention impacts on pH. I'll be playing around more with this in the future.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

This is great info...I finally called public works, got a water report, and spoke to the guy who runs the treatment plant! Apparently we have total dissolved solids around 212-235 but almost 0 calcium and about 110 of that TDS is dissolved silicate. I know the calcium is a huge factor, but I suspect that silicate has to be having an effect as well. Does anyone know what effect if any silicate has and how to address it?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

None that I'm aware of. TDS won't help, and silicates won't likely matter. Get the water department to tell you the alkalinity. That plus the calcium and magnesium will enable you to use the spreadsheets and online calculators.

 

[dmtaylor]

None that I'm aware of. TDS won't help, and silicates won't likely matter. Get the water department to tell you the alkalinity. That plus the calcium and magnesium will enable you to use the spreadsheets and online calculators.

Yep, what he said. ^^^^

Silicate is just sand. Alkalinity, calcium, sulfate, and chloride are the biggest ones that you want to ask him about.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I'm starting to think about just using RO water and building it up. I was hoping I could avoid messing with my water too much. Any suggestions on resources that give straightforward info on additions to RO water for different styles?

 

[z-bob]

I'm starting to think about just using RO water and building it up. I was hoping I could avoid messing with my water too much. Any suggestions on resources that give straightforward info on additions to RO water for different styles?

AJ posted something years ago about that; simple guidelines using gypsum, calcium chloride, acid malt, and RO water to brew different styles. I bet it's a sticky, let me see if I can find it...

ETA: Here it is; first post in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Awesome, thank you!