What's your preferred mash pH target?

[dmtaylor]

RPIScotty, I would like to point out that when you spoke about using a mash pH of 5.2, you were saying that the measurement was at room temperature. If that's the case, then your pH at mashing temperatures is in the 4.9 range, which is low.

Not again........

I think some of us are going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree with RPIScotty that per every reference I have ever seen, including statements from Kai himself, the standard convention is STP, always and everywhere. Any assumption otherwise is... just... wrong.

 

[The_Bishop]

Convention is pretty clear and agreed upon as reported pH and recommended pH optima are at room temperature. Going all the way back to DeClerck this is the case.

So in that sense, mashing at from 5.2-5.6 as is most recommended across many texts and by many authors means mash temp pH of 5.0-5.4.

Also, I don't get those flavors you describe. I get a full, flavorful, roasty beer. I do however use less roast malt than most. So there may be something to that.

Kai has pointed out that the whole mash temp pH vs room temp pH argument is irrelevant because by convention we are always talking about room temp pH for reporting measurements and optimum pH.

You have me thinking about a thought experiment:

Say you and I set out to brew a RIS. We are going to brew together and when complete taste the two beers together.

I am going to target 5.2 room temp pH and my recipe will be as follows:

80% Weyermann Pale
7% Flaked Oats
3% Caramunich II
3% Special B
3.5% Roasted Barley
3.5% Chocolate

You are going to target 5.6 room temp pH and your recipe will be very similar except you reduce base malt and increase roast malt to 14%.

We taste the beers together and decide they share a similar flavor profile despite their differences.

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation but the concept interests me because it seems to reflect what we are saying to one another.

I was also thinking about a stout I did about a year ago that was very similar to what I described above. The DI pH of the Weyermann malt was 5.90 so with that recipe I actually had to acidify with a bit of acid malt to get to 5.25. It was full flavored with smooth roast. Just delicious.

I wonder if the amounts of roast Malts typically used in these beers, coupled with the use of NaHCO3 to add alkalinity has something to do with aiming for 5.6 as well. I know that when we were developing and implementing the Sauergut calculations in our spreadsheet, we notice anomalous behavior of the Sauergut when NaHCO3 was present.

I must have missed the exchange regarding mash pH temperature; my apologies.

Looking at the grain bill in your proposed thought experiment definitely shows a difference in regards to the recipe formulation. If I'm remembering right (not home near my notes/library) most stouts run in the 10% range for roasted grains (sometimes higher), the ratio depending on the intensity (degrees lovibond) of the roast.

Your recipe doesn't contain any black barley. A fair spread of recipes call for it's use; I don't use it often and when I do, it's sparingly. But I think there's a direct correlation in the darkness of the roast, the pH of the mash/wort, and the finished flavor of the beer. Perhaps the lower pH of the mash is extracting an undesirable flavor compound that's below the taste threshold when the roasted grains are used sparingly, or perhaps not present in any appreciable amount when the roast isn't as dark.

 

[Big Monk]

I must have missed the exchange regarding mash pH temperature; my apologies.

Looking at the grain bill in your proposed thought experiment definitely shows a difference in regards to the recipe formulation. If I'm remembering right (not home near my notes/library) most stouts run in the 10% range for roasted grains (sometimes higher), the ratio depending on the intensity (degrees lovibond) of the roast.

Your recipe doesn't contain any black barley. A fair spread of recipes call for it's use; I don't use it often and when I do, it's sparingly. But I think there's a direct correlation in the darkness of the roast, the pH of the mash/wort, and the finished flavor of the beer. Perhaps the lower pH of the mash is extracting an undesirable flavor compound that's below the taste threshold when the roasted grains are used sparingly, or perhaps not present in any appreciable amount when the roast isn't as dark.

You are definitely following my logic.

It may be that playing with the Stout recipe convention may be in order for mashing lower. If all else is relatively similar, i.e. if you and I use varying levels of roast malt amount and intensity, but get similar flavors, it may just mean that if you want to mash at 5.2-5.3 that you need to play with ingredients a bit.

Personally, it's roasted barley and chocolate malt for me, along with a mix of higher cara malts. I have seen recipes as high as 14-15% roast malt. Maybe that is where you wan tot mash higher.

What i'm trying to research casually is the driver behind that.

 

[dmtaylor]

I dunno about the rest of ya'll, but I often reserve my baking soda addition, if any, for the boil and not the mash. It would probably take quite a bit baking soda to get the pH up to 5.5-5.6 or whatever folks were quoting previously, to the point where I'd be very concerned as to the adverse flavor impacts of that much sodium. And I don't use chalk ever, I don't own any and don't think I want to. On my most recent porter, mash pH was so low that I did add 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the mash, and even then I only got it up to 5.3. Guess I could have used more, but like I said, I'd be concerned about too much sodium. It was a very black beer indeed, must be in the 30-40 SRM range, which I didn't intend but that's what I got. Blacker than midnight. Usually it's not that dark, but this time I used a goofy combination of Carafa III and Chocolate Wheat based on just what I had sitting in the basement to use up, and I might have screwed up the amounts somehow. Usually I would have used good ole chocolate and black patent, but why buy any if I have the other stuff on hand already. Long story short, it all worked out, but I'm still glad I didn't increase pH way up to 5.6 or something like that. Baking soda is NOT tasty stuff.

I guess I should ask...

What do the rest of you use to increase pH when you deem necessary?

 

[jmark]

I use Pickling Lime... added directly to the mash after dough-in... small amounts work wonders.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I am curious about pH and efficiency (I think it was mentioned waaay back there before things got derailed a little...)
Specifically I have never messed w/ water adjustments or pH but have been looking at them as the likely culprit for my abysmally low efficiency since switching to BIAB. Come to think of it my efficiency has been off since moving to Colorado but I noticed a more significant drop after switching. I am double milling my grain and have it cranked waaay down so crush is awesome but still getting 60%. Are there any pH strips that give reasonably accurate readings or do I need to get a meter? Recommendations for specific brands/ makes/ models of either that you have personally had good luck with? I don't mind investing money in good brewing equipment but I'd prefer to keep it under $20 if possible until I figure out if pH is even my problem

 

[dmtaylor]

Are there any pH strips that give reasonably accurate readings or do I need to get a meter? Recommendations for specific brands/ makes/ models of either that you have personally had good luck with? I don't mind investing money in good brewing equipment but I'd prefer to keep it under $20 if possible until I figure out if pH is even my problem

Copy/paste from previous page:

17 bucks...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDC4GQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Reliable pH paper costs more than a decent pH meter. ColorpHast is about the only paper that is trustworthy, with the drawback (as I understand it) that it reads consistently about 0.3 units low. As long as you understand this, it is workable, but terribly expensive.

 

[rhys333]

.

 

[Big Monk]

I dunno about the rest of ya'll, but I often reserve my baking soda addition, if any, for the boil and not the mash. It would probably take quite a bit baking soda to get the pH up to 5.5-5.6 or whatever folks were quoting previously, to the point where I'd be very concerned as to the adverse flavor impacts of that much sodium. And I don't use chalk ever, I don't own any and don't think I want to. On my most recent porter, mash pH was so low that I did add 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the mash, and even then I only got it up to 5.3. Guess I could have used more, but like I said, I'd be concerned about too much sodium. It was a very black beer indeed, must be in the 30-40 SRM range, which I didn't intend but that's what I got. Blacker than midnight. Usually it's not that dark, but this time I used a goofy combination of Carafa III and Chocolate Wheat based on just what I had sitting in the basement to use up, and I might have screwed up the amounts somehow. Usually I would have used good ole chocolate and black patent, but why buy any if I have the other stuff on hand already. Long story short, it all worked out, but I'm still glad I didn't increase pH way up to 5.6 or something like that. Baking soda is NOT tasty stuff.

I guess I should ask...

What do the rest of you use to increase pH when you deem necessary?

When I made my custom "BLAM" spreadsheet for brewing monastic beers, I didn't even include the bicarbonate values in my Belgian water profiles section. In fact, I only have spaces in the mineral section for Gypsum, Epsom, CaCl and Canning salt. I don't have any situations where I'm trying to increase pH. Due to the fact that I only have spaces in the water calcs (in my custom sheet) to acidify with Sauermalz or Sauergut, I don't even track bicarbonate anywhere on the sheet.

With many of the Weyermann base Malts being more basic than others (5.8-6.0), I would most likely be trying to acidify even roasty beers.

 

[The_Bishop]

Copy/paste from previous page:

17 bucks...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDC4GQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I know you have strong feelings about this and have an affinity for inexpensive meters, but in my experience those meters are about as accurate as using your finger as a thermometer.

In some cases, you get what you pay for.

 

[dmtaylor]

I know you have strong feelings about this and have an affinity for inexpensive meters, but in my experience those meters are about as accurate as using your finger as a thermometer.

In some cases, you get what you pay for.

But if it consistently measures 4.01 in a 4.01 standard buffer solution, and 6.86 in a 6.86 standard buffer solution, and you can go back and forth and it reads accurately, then how could it be inaccurate?!

If a really cheap thermometer consistently reads 216 F in boiling water and 36 F in ice water, and you can go back and forth and it always reads the same, is it a piece of junk that you would not advocate buying or keeping?

The key here is whether the instrument is calibratable. If you can calibrate it and it reads with consistent precision........

Peace, out.

 

[The_Bishop]

You are definitely following my logic.

It may be that playing with the Stout recipe convention may be in order for mashing lower. If all else is relatively similar, i.e. if you and I use varying levels of roast malt amount and intensity, but get similar flavors, it may just mean that if you want to mash at 5.2-5.3 that you need to play with ingredients a bit.

Personally, it's roasted barley and chocolate malt for me, along with a mix of higher cara malts. I have seen recipes as high as 14-15% roast malt. Maybe that is where you wan tot mash higher.

What i'm trying to research casually is the driver behind that.

I'd like to know the 'why' of it as well, but the absence of a lab for testing purposes makes that difficult.

The way I see it, in accordance to what you're saying is:

Higher quantity/darker roasted grain - Raise mash pH
Lower quantity/lighter roasted grain - Lower mash pH

For me, modified with the caveat: Adjust according to taste.

I dunno about the rest of ya'll, but I often reserve my baking soda addition, if any, for the boil and not the mash. It would probably take quite a bit baking soda to get the pH up to 5.5-5.6 or whatever folks were quoting previously, to the point where I'd be very concerned as to the adverse flavor impacts of that much sodium. And I don't use chalk ever, I don't own any and don't think I want to. On my most recent porter, mash pH was so low that I did add 1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the mash, and even then I only got it up to 5.3. Guess I could have used more, but like I said, I'd be concerned about too much sodium. It was a very black beer indeed, must be in the 30-40 SRM range, which I didn't intend but that's what I got. Blacker than midnight. Usually it's not that dark, but this time I used a goofy combination of Carafa III and Chocolate Wheat based on just what I had sitting in the basement to use up, and I might have screwed up the amounts somehow. Usually I would have used good ole chocolate and black patent, but why buy any if I have the other stuff on hand already. Long story short, it all worked out, but I'm still glad I didn't increase pH way up to 5.6 or something like that. Baking soda is NOT tasty stuff.

I guess I should ask...

What do the rest of you use to increase pH when you deem necessary?

I generally speaking don't use much baking soda when I need to raise mash pH. It's usually less than 1-2 grams, when I rarely need it. I also have pickling lime that I'll use if I need the calcium and want to avoid the sodium, although I find small traces of sodium tend to help beer flavor.

I can't imagine having to add enough baking soda to hit the flavor threshold!

 

[dmtaylor]

My initial pH in that last batch was seriously in the friggin 4s, at room temperature. It's jet black colorwise. I think my Lovibonds were way darker than I'd assumed. And the darker it gets, the more acidic it is in the mash. John Palmer had a really nice article about some experiments in this regard in a recent issue of BYO. The conclusion I got from the article: it might be wise to reserve some or all of the darkest roasted grains for AFTER the BOIL for best flavor results... not to mention impacts on pH. I'll be playing around more with this in the future.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

This is great info...I finally called public works, got a water report, and spoke to the guy who runs the treatment plant! Apparently we have total dissolved solids around 212-235 but almost 0 calcium and about 110 of that TDS is dissolved silicate. I know the calcium is a huge factor, but I suspect that silicate has to be having an effect as well. Does anyone know what effect if any silicate has and how to address it?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

None that I'm aware of. TDS won't help, and silicates won't likely matter. Get the water department to tell you the alkalinity. That plus the calcium and magnesium will enable you to use the spreadsheets and online calculators.

 

[dmtaylor]

None that I'm aware of. TDS won't help, and silicates won't likely matter. Get the water department to tell you the alkalinity. That plus the calcium and magnesium will enable you to use the spreadsheets and online calculators.

Yep, what he said. ^^^^

Silicate is just sand. Alkalinity, calcium, sulfate, and chloride are the biggest ones that you want to ask him about.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I'm starting to think about just using RO water and building it up. I was hoping I could avoid messing with my water too much. Any suggestions on resources that give straightforward info on additions to RO water for different styles?

 

[z-bob]

I'm starting to think about just using RO water and building it up. I was hoping I could avoid messing with my water too much. Any suggestions on resources that give straightforward info on additions to RO water for different styles?

AJ posted something years ago about that; simple guidelines using gypsum, calcium chloride, acid malt, and RO water to brew different styles. I bet it's a sticky, let me see if I can find it...

ETA: Here it is; first post in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Awesome, thank you!

 

[Waunabeer]

This entire thread talks about the mash pH. What is the pH of your strike water before mashing? Is there a direct correlation with the water pH at strike temp vs. mash pH? Shouldn't you adjust the strike water pH before you mash?

Sorry if I'm missing something here or if I'm way off base. I've never really controlled my pH before, but would like to start. Although my beers have been very good; maybe it was luck?

 

[dmtaylor]

This entire thread talks about the mash pH. What is the pH of your strike water before mashing? Is there a direct correlation with the water pH at strike temp vs. mash pH? Shouldn't you adjust the strike water pH before you mash?

Sorry if I'm missing something here or if I'm way off base. I've never really controlled my pH before, but would like to start. Although my beers have been very good; maybe it was luck?

The pH of my raw water is somewhere around about 8.3 or so if memory serves, which is very common for a lot of city water and well water alike. This value is irrelevant because as soon as the water and malt are combined, it falls to the upper 5's, and if pretreated with calcium salts or containing dark roasted grains, it goes down even further to the desired low 5's (and sometimes even the 4's!).

There is no direct correlation that I'm aware of between initial water pH and mash pH. What matters is the mash pH. You can pretty much ignore the pH of the source water. What it might tell you is a very general idea of how much salts or acidification you might need. However, you really must use software and/or experience with your water source to know for sure where it will come out. You're likely to find that with most batches, you don't even need any water treatment, as the mash pH will magically find a home around 5.3 all on its own without any intervention.

If you think about it... by human interference over thousands of years, it's to the point where malt and water were meant to be together, and come to the right pH pretty much all by itself. This is no accident, but through trial and error by humans over thousands of years to whatever "tasted good". Thousands of years before people had any concept of what pH was, people could make good beer very consistently, as long as they followed certain rules and techniques that were handed down from generation to generation. Just because we have pH meters and textbooks today doesn't mean that we really NEED those things. On the contrary....... maybe we don't! See here for a truly timely, perfect example:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/30/wa...he-impact-of-low-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

Cheers!

 

[lstewart89]

I aim for between 5.2-5.3 for APA/IPAs, and 5.4-5.6 for darker styles.

I think the biggest thing I learned when testing mash pH was to wait about 10 minutes once you've doughed in. I used to pull a sample as quickly as I could so I could adjust promptly, however waiting a little longer really helped get a more accurate number.

 

[Morrey]

This entire thread talks about the mash pH. What is the pH of your strike water before mashing? Is there a direct correlation with the water pH at strike temp vs. mash pH? Shouldn't you adjust the strike water pH before you mash?

Sorry if I'm missing something here or if I'm way off base. I've never really controlled my pH before, but would like to start. Although my beers have been very good; maybe it was luck?

This is a darn good question and something that kinda freaked me out a year or so ago. Yes, adjust strike water first before dough in.

So I did my water calcs with Bru'n Water, added lactic acid which would potentially bring my mash water to 5.4 (my magic number) after the grain bill was added into my full volume (adjusted) strike water. Well, I had just bought my new ph meter and wanted to play with it. Here sits my 7.25G of "adjusted" strike water and I test it for ph. Darn...it reads 4.5 ph. YIKES I screwed up. Hold on, lets think this through. I started with source water ph of 7.3 knowing my grains will influence the mash ph once added in. So the 3mL of lactic I added according to Bru'n Water will swing back to 5.4 all said and done. Ok...it worked like magic. Ph of the mash was 5.4 as predicted allowing good conversion.

7.3 ph strike water unadjusted
3 mL lactic acid brought strike water ph to 4.5
10# grains buffered ph back to 5.4...perfect.

If you'll take the time to look into a water management program such as Bru'n Water, this will take you in the correct direction for sure. Your current water's profile is all taken into account so the program can help for make total adjustments with salts as well as acids for ph and other flavor balancing.

 

[Bassman2003]

How about this thought? - Ph choice seems to be connected to grain bills from the hombrewer's point of view but what if the Ph qualities were actually tied to the yeast properties instead of the grist?

Martin mentioned lager yeasts tend to not acidify. Well what if you made a dark beer using one of these non-acidifying lager yeasts? Would that result in a low acid tasting dark beer, even at Ph 5.2?

Maybe the emphasis is on the malts and should include yeast choice as well? Just thinking out loud.

 

[The_Bishop]

This is a darn good question and something that kinda freaked me out a year or so ago. Yes, adjust strike water first before dough in.

This is not always the right thing to do.

When you added acid to your strike water, you neutralized your alkalinity. While this is generally a good thing, sometimes it's not the best move. If you're brewing a particularly roasty, dark beer you might need some of that alkalinity.

It also depends on your water! I brew with RO that has a TDS reading of 4-5. It has next to no buffering capability. I can cause huge swings in pH with very little in the way of acid or base added to the water.

There's no 'magic bullet' to water chemistry, aside from starting from RO/Distilled and building from there. Local 'tap' water changes based on local, source and season. What works for you with your tap water will not work for someone else.