What's your preferred mash pH target?

[McKnuckle]

Is Kunze's 5.2 cited at room temp or at mash temp...? If it's mash temp, then he's actually saying that 5.4 is ideal. I don't see it mentioned in the quoted text, but it's probably somewhere else in the book.

 

[Big Monk]

Is Kunze's 5.2 cited at room temp or at mash temp...? If it's mash temp, then he's actually saying that 5.4 is ideal. I don't see it mentioned in the quoted text, but it's probably somewhere else in the book.

Room temperature - 70 °F

 

[MagicMatt]

Room temperature - 70 °F

I'd actually argue that unless you can cite the place where he says it's supposed to be room temp, that he is actually referring to mash temps. That was part of the problem until a few years ago, was that "5.2" was the quoted number but no one seemed to know (or indicate) whether that was at mash temps or room temp. I believe AJ, Kai, and others determined that all of the cited "5.2" references were for mash temps (which makes sense, since you're trying to target a specific environment for the mash itself you would expect the numbers to be relative to that mash).

If you're saying that he denotes that his 5.2 recommendation is at room temp, well then I can definitely second Bishop's concern that this is incorrect information. That would mean a mash pH of 5.0, which as we all know is quite low. I can't see any "brewing scientist" not knowing this, or recommending such a low range as the de facto standard.

 

[Big Monk]

I'd actually argue that unless you can cite the place where he says it's supposed to be room temp, that he is actually referring to mash temps. That was part of the problem until a few years ago, was that "5.2" was the quoted number but no one seemed to know (or indicate) whether that was at mash temps or room temp. I believe AJ, Kai, and others determined that all of the cited "5.2" references were for mash temps (which makes sense, since you're trying to target a specific environment for the mash itself you would expect the numbers to be relative to that mash).



If you're saying that he denotes that his 5.2 recommendation is at room temp, well then I can definitely second Bishop's concern that this is incorrect information. That would mean a mash pH of 5.0, which as we all know is quite low. I can't see any "brewing scientist" not knowing this, or recommending such a low range as the de facto standard.

All pH optima are reported as room temp. So it's 5.2 at room temp and 5.4 ish at mash temp, not the other way around.

Kai's posts on this topic support my statement.

 

[MagicMatt]

All pH optima are reported as room temp. So it's 5.2 at room temp and 5.4 ish at mash temp, not the other way around.

Kai's posts on this topic support my statement.

Completely 100% false.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling for argument's sake or if you're serious, but please stop posting bad information in here and treating it as fact.

As the temperature increases in water, there's an increase in its ability to ionize and so the concentration of H+ in solution will increase, and hence the pH will drop, not rise.

There is no way you can sit here and tell us any different. And for the record, "Kai's posts on this topic" certainly DO NOT support your statement. Here's a direct quote, emphasis added (taken from http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/):

John Palmer’s 1st edition of “How to Brew” states this:
“When you mash 100% base malt grist with distilled water, you will usually get a mash pH between 5.7-5.8. (Remember, the target is 5.1-5.5 pH.)”

In this sentence he mixes room temp and mash temp pH values. The 5.7-5.8 base malt pH is correct when seen as the pH of a room temperature mash sample while the 5.1-5.5 pH target is only correct when seen as a mash temp pH target with a conversion factor of 0.35. With the correction the room temp sample pH target range is 5.45 – 5.85, which is more correct.

This is not a disputed theory, this is hard scientific fact - the pH of a mash sample will rise as the temperature lowers.

And further down in the same post, he mentions the ideal range based on beer style:

And to answer the question that is most interesting to brewers, I believe that the optimal mash pH range is 5.3-5.5 for light beers and 5.4-5.6 for darker beers when testing a room temperature sample of the mash.

So it just seems you are incorrect all around.

 

[Big Monk]

Completely 100% false.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling for argument's sake or if you're serious, but please stop posting bad information in here and treating it as fact.

As the temperature increases in water, there's an increase in its ability to ionize and so the concentration of H+ in solution will increase, and hence the pH will drop, not rise.

There is no way you can sit here and tell us any different. And for the record, "Kai's posts on this topic" certainly DO NOT support your statement. Here's a direct quote, emphasis added (taken from http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/):



This is not a disputed theory, this is hard scientific fact - the pH of a mash sample will rise as the temperature lowers.

And further down in the same post, he mentions the ideal range based on beer style:


So it just seems you are incorrect all around.

Take it easy on me! Jeez.

I misinterpreted some of the same sources you quoted. I'm not trolling anybody.

I'm not stationary right now but let me review some stuff and post a non-rushed cohesive response.

 

[MagicMatt]

No harm meant, I just really thought you were making contradictory statements intentionally. Take your time.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've got to admit, this mash pH vs. temperature stuff is friggin confusing, and I myself got it backwards for a minute.....

pH should always be measured at room temperature. That's a fact. I'm not going to cite sources, go look it up yourself.

Mash pH is optimal for most beer styles somewhere around 5.2-5.4, the exact amount debatable but it's in that range.... and this is at room temperature. That's a fact, again, go find the sources yourself.

Mash pH if measured at mash temperatures around 150 F will be 0.2 lower. So that same range falls to 5.0-5.2. This is my understanding based on stuff I've read from Kaiser and Gordon Strong on the AHA forum. Go look it up yourself, I'm lazy. The 0.35 reported by some sources is not correct. It's more like 0.2 per Kai and Strong.

So, RPIScotty got it backwards. And so did I, for a minute. But I think I've got it square now.

Meanwhile, Matt's discussion about subtracting 0.35 from 5.7-5.8 or whatever is a total misapplication of facts. Mash pH of a 100% base malt in distilled water measured at room temperature will in fact be around 5.8. This was reported by Ray Daniels in Designing Great Beers. I don't have a copy sitting right here in front of me, but I do have a somewhat photographic memory. So again, go look it up yourself. Specialty malts will have a tendency to bring mash pH down by around 0.3 with 10% of the grist and 0.5 at 20% of the grist. Source is Daniels again, go look it up.

All the while, I must be some kind of idiot because I choose to measure mash pH at 150 F instead of room temperature. I need to run some more experiments to see what the real differences are, haven't done that yet, but I will, eventually.

So again, like I said earlier.....

We are all idiots.

 

[MagicMatt]

The 0.35 reported by some sources is not correct. It's more like 0.2 per Kai and Strong.

So, RPIScotty got it backwards. And so did I, for a minute. But I think I've got it square now.

Meanwhile, Matt's discussion about subtracting 0.35 from 5.7-5.8 or whatever is a total misapplication of facts.

I think you failed to realize that the quotes I posted are quotes from Kai himself, on his own website. Kai says 0.35, not me. Personally I find it closer to 0.25-0.30.

And it's not a misapplication of facts - it's the fact of the matter, according to Kai. In fact, Kai was referencing a quote from Palmer's book. Palmer stated that the "target mash pH" was 5.1-5.5, and Kai noted that this is true, but that's not the values you'd get if measuring at room temp (as you should be). If the "target mash pH" (at mash temps) is 5.1-5.5 as Palmer states, then Kai reasons the actual measured mash pH at room temp would be closer to 5.45-5.8.

Read the article I linked to (where these quote come from). It's quite informative.

pH should always be measured at room temperature. That's a fact. I'm not going to cite sources, go look it up yourself.
...
All the while, I must be some kind of idiot because I choose to measure mash pH at 150 F instead of room temperature. I need to run some more experiments to see what the real differences are, haven't done that yet, but I will, eventually.

So you're saying something is a fact, and telling us to look it up ourselves, but you yourself haven't even looked it up? How then can you claim you know this as fact?!?

But yes, it is a fact. It's not so much because of an error in the readings though, it's due to the longevity of the pH probe. The hotter mash temps will shorten the lifespan of the probe significantly. This equates to more money spent replacing them more frequently, and thus the reason for avoiding to do so.

And for future reference, if you're not going to do your own citations then not many people will pay attention to you. Anyone can say anything followed "look it up yourself". But I already did look it up myself, and I've already posted quotes saying otherwise by people who are far more knowledgeable than you or I on the subject. If it's between you and Kai, I'm sticking with him, no offense.

 

[dmtaylor]

Don't take my word for it. I'm just Random Dude from the interwebs. WTF do I know.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=6168.msg74839#msg74839

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4739.msg56010#msg56010

 

[The_Bishop]

Mash pH of a 100% base malt in distilled water measured at room temperature will in fact be around 5.8. This was reported by Ray Daniels in Designing Great Beers.

This isn't always true. Different base malts have different buffering/acidifying capability and they don't all measure 5.8 in a distilled water mash. This is what makes predicting mash pH with software so challenging. It's not a constant even with the same grain line, it'll vary year to year and crop to crop.

 

[Big Monk]

Alright. Kids are washed and put in bed and I'm stationary.

I just want to say that I'm not here to argue for the sake of arguing or to try and be right. I love talking about beer. I think that if we take a second to get aligned that this could be a great discussion and very informative.

Let's lay out some talking points and see if we agree, and if we don't well know where we diverge and we can zero in on that. Can we agree on the following points:

1.) Room temperature pH measurements are an industry standard for measurement
2.) As such, when ranges and target values are quoted, they are at room temperature
3.) We can safely say that 5.2-5.6 encompasses the most common target values

Can we agree on these points?

I'm searching through the various forum posts, Kunze, Fix and DeClerck right now and if we can agree on the above points we can start to put a sort of narrative together that we can agree on.

 

[dmtaylor]

This isn't always true. Different base malts have different buffering/acidifying capability and they don't all measure 5.8 in a distilled water mash. This is what makes predicting mash pH with software so challenging. It's not a constant even with the same grain line, it'll vary year to year and crop to crop.

Valid point, Bishop.

 

[dmtaylor]

Alright. Kids are washed and put in bed and I'm stationary.

I just want to say that I'm not here to argue for the sake of arguing or to try and be right. I love talking about beer. I think that if we take a second to get aligned that this could be a great discussion and very informative.

Let's lay out some talking points and see if we agree, and if we don't well know where we diverge and we can zero in on that. Can we agree on the following points:

1.) Room temperature pH measurements are an industry standard for measurement
2.) As such, when ranges and target values are quoted, they are at room temperature
3.) We can safely say that 5.2-5.6 encompasses the most common target values

Can we agree on these points?

I'm searching through the various forum posts, Kunze, Fix and DeClerck right now and if we can agree on the above points we can start to put a sort of narrative together that we can agree on.

Sounds right to me, D.

Check also my conversational references from previous page.

 

[rabeb25]

All my weyermann has been 5.9-5.99 this year, that includes pilsner, pale ale, munich(s), vienna, and wheat. My rahr sacks were in the mid 5.9's as well.

I mash every beer at 5.2, I do this because the professional brewing literature tells me to and because I like the attributes from it. There is long lists of why mashing at 5.2 is advantageous. There is a prerequisite for mashing everything at 5.2 though, that being low oxygen brewing. Low oxygen brewing will not make your stouts acrid, or whatever other issues you have will flavor and mashing pH's. If there were exceptions (say stouts) I am pretty sure the literature (again MULTIPLE sources) would have said something. The common thread between all the professional brewing texts is Low oxygen brewing, so thats how I am making said assumptions. I have 2 Schwarzbiers on tap right now mashed at 5.2 and they are nothing short of glorious.

Bryan

 

[dmtaylor]

I'll just lay this out on the table for anyone interested.....

For grins and giggles, I just did something I have never done before... I have in fact been tracking various data on a spreadsheet for every all-grain batch I have ever brewed since 2005.... and I just plotted mash pH vs. final beer quality for >60 all-grain batches from 2005-2016:

All mash pH values are reported at room temperature, with more than half calculated by trusted software that has reflected true values, and nearly half verified by actual measurements on paper test strips to the best of my ability.

I have always maintained a goal for mash pH of 5.3, plus or minus a little, while knowing and expecting that in many cases especially for lighter colored beers without a lot of specialty malts, it is very difficult to get much below 5.5 without addition of acid or acidulated malt, which I have done only once or twice in my career, opting instead for use of distilled water and a lot of CaCl2 and gypsum and light crystal malts instead to try to get pH down to a maximum of 5.5.

Analysis of the New Plot:

I don't have a lot of data for mash pH outside of 5.2 to 5.5, which makes sense because I always aim to achieve a pH within that range. For most accurate results, I would need to run more experiments outside of that range on purpose, which I may or may not do in future. Anyway, looking at the quality scores >50:

At a mash pH=5.2, it appears that my beers were slightly more good than bad.

At mash pH=5.3, about the same as at 5.2.

At mash pH=5.4, clearly my beers are a lot higher quality on average, with the vast majority having a quality score >50.

At mash pH=5.5, ditto, mostly great beers.

Conclusion:

Perhaps my goal for mash pH of 5.3 has been unnecessary. Perhaps I should instead be shooting for 5.4 to 5.5 for every beer.

Interesting... Very interesting.

Additional Background on "Quality":

My method of determining a "beer quality" rating is admittedly pseudo-scientific, but also very reasonable, I think, as it is in fact a mathematical normalized weighted average of three data points, combined in a manner that accounts for independent objective quantitative data while also including some more personal subjective, qualitative judgment. The three factors include: 1) how "yummy" I personally think the final beer is overall, 2) how close it comes to the style that I was trying to make based on highest medal won in competition (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th runnerup, or zero), and 3) how well it scored in competitions on average (if entered). If no independent data is available, then I assume a nominal competition score of 29 (out of 50) and either 3rd, 4th, or zeroeth place based on how well I believe it might do in real competition. All this stuff is included, numbered, and normalized, and results in a single "beer quality" score that is roughly on a scale of 1 to 100 (my actual lowest score is 3 and the highest is 93, with most around 50, so it really does work). If it adds any credibility, I am a Certified BJCP judge with 10 years judging experience and 18 years homebrewing experience. Why do I do all this? It's a way for me to gauge my own thinking vs. independent objective sources and recalibrate, i.e., helps me get to know myself and my own biases; not to mention that it helps me come up with awesome charts like the one you see here. And as a math geek, it's just fun! Yeah, I'm sick, I know.

Cheers all. I don't know if any of this is useful at all, but maybe.

 

[rabeb25]

I'll buy into that, I used to target 5.4.-5.5 as it produced my "best" beers as well. When I went to LOB, I found those same beers to be muddy.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'll buy into that, I used to target 5.4.-5.5 as it produced my "best" beers as well. When I went to LOB, I found those same beers to be muddy.

Cool! So for those of us brewing the "normal American" way, we should perhaps indeed be aiming for 5.4-5.5. And if we should ever try the LODO method, then it makes sense to bring this down to 5.2. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience between these brewing methods.

 

[JohnConnor]

Cool! So for those of us brewing the "normal American" way, we should perhaps indeed be aiming for 5.4-5.5. And if we should ever try the LODO method, then it makes sense to bring this down to 5.2. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience between these brewing methods.

Sorry, I haven't comment on this but I am following. The 5.4/5.5 is mash pH or room temp pH? I'm trying to tie this to my bru n water sheet. I don't have a pH meter yet so I'm going with estimates at this point...

 

[dmtaylor]

Sorry, I haven't comment on this but I am following. The 5.4/5.5 is mash pH or room temp pH? I'm trying to tie this to my bru n water sheet. I don't have a pH meter yet so I'm going with estimates at this point...

5.4-5.5 at room temperature. Measured directly in the mash at mash temperatures, the desired range should be closer to roughly 5.2-5.3 (and that, then, is what I shall aim for in the future).

For whatever else it's worth, I just made a porter where I measured 5.1 directly in the hot mash, and this porter is not at all acrid or acidic, not at all. It turned out great.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It looks like your peak success has come at pH 5.25. Not far from Scott's 5.2.

 

[z-bob]

I just punch 5.4 in the Brewers Friend water calculator, and play with the gypsum, calcium chloride, acid malt, etc. for my recipe until it comes out right and the sulfate:chloride isn't ridiculous. Since I started using acid malt, I'm getting by with more tapwater and less RO water.

I haven't actually tested with a pH meter yet because it seems to be working.

 

[rabeb25]

5.4-5.5 at room temperature. Measured directly in the mash at mash temperatures, the desired range should be closer to roughly 5.2-5.3 (and that, then, is what I shall aim for in the future).

For whatever else it's worth, I just made a porter where I measured 5.1 directly in the hot mash, and this porter is not at all acrid or acidic, not at all. It turned out great.

What meter are you using for a mash temp reading?

 

[rabeb25]

It looks like your peak success has come at pH 5.25. Not far from Scott's 5.2.

5.25 is 5.2..

 

[Big Monk]

So I gathered my wits last night and re-read some of your posts and did some digging, so here we go:



First, I think we can all agree that "by convention" (Kai/Delange), all reported pH values are at room temperature. DeClerck reports this all the way back in the 1957 1st Edition of "A Textbook of Brewing":



"When pH is mentioned in connection with mashing, it always refers to the cooled wort."



He also has a table showing various temperatures where pH was measured in a distilled water mash that, while a bit dated, gives an approximation of the ∆ pH:



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376496.401299.jpg


Using interpolation we can see that at 21 °C, we would have approximately 0.3 difference in mash temp pH vs. Room temp pH. I just include it for discussion and a bit of historical context.



There are many threads detailing why the sample temperature is irrelevant or accounted for by convention (i.e. pH optima always reported as room temp), and I list them here only for reference, as many of you already have read/posted these here:



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=400490



https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=702.0



https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=6168.0



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=460499



http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/02/about-ph-targets-and-temperature/



As for 5.2 as a desirable pH value, I was never intending to give bad advice to anyone, on the contrary, I have read a ton of references to its positive effects, as well as experienced positive effects from it.



With the above references to pH reporting convention in mind, let's investigate 5.2 as a desirable target.



DeClerck is again another early reference to this value. Here is an excerpt from "A Textbook of Brewing":



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376519.547541.jpg



Fix chimes in during "Principles of Brewing Science" as well:



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376541.220637.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376550.224238.jpg



Notice that Hind's observations all the way back in 1950 show that amylase activity is greatest at 5.2.



There is of course the previously posted Kunze excerpt, and now with the convention of reporting at room temp in mind, he all but begs you to mash at 5.2:



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485376582.473722.jpg



Now I refuse, for even a second, to say that those of you mashing dark beers at 5.6 are wrong. I can't and won't do it. I will however say that mashing that high seems to be isolated to dark beers exclusively, and appears as a stark outlier to much of the literature that states 5.2-5.4 being the generally accepted range.



I know that AJ has pointed out before that he mashes dark beers in this range with no issues:



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6871426&postcount=8



I have always wondered why 5.6 became an accepted value. I did not however mean to insult anyone when I said:

I'll tell you this much, if you need to raise your pH to avoid an acrid, thin and all together unpleasant beer, then you are treating the symptoms rather than the problem.

I just wonder whether there is a different solution that will allow people to get the known benefits of mashing lower without what seems to be a common issue with acrid, ashy flavors.



As Bryan said concerning his Schwarzbier, and as I have said concerning my past RISs, 5.2 has been nothing less than friendly to dark beers for us.

 

[mabrungard]

Kunze is an excellent resource. It's especially focused on continental styles. A pH of 5.2 has advantages for most lagers since lager yeast tends to acidify less than ale strains and the resulting beer pH tends to be higher. However, it would be foolish to apply that pH recommendation to all beers. As noted above, there are styles that clearly benefit from higher mashing pH.

This is particularly true in roasty beers and somewhat true for hoppy ales. Citing schwartzbier (or dunkel) is not valid since they are lagers and they are not roasty. A single mashing pH specification is not appropriate in my opinion.

 

[Big Monk]

I guess I'm just curious as to what drives this condition, i.e. raising pH for dark beers. I've brewed RISs and other Stouts at Low pH with no issues so I have no frame of reference for this. They tasted excellent. I'm very excited to brew a Low Oxygen RIS.

However, it would be foolish to apply that pH recommendation to all beers. As noted above, there are styles that clearly benefit from higher mashing pH. A single mashing pH specification is not appropriate in my opinion.

I think I can say with very reasonable assurance that you don't mean any offense by this. I generally dislike words like foolish in describing something that has worked for other people and I typically try very hard if I can help it to avoid language like that.

It just seems odd to me that dark beers are such an outlier. There also seems to be no other evidence or literature other than, "my roast beers just taste better at 5.6." Which I am not knocking in any way, shape or form. It just puts my antennae up.

 

[dmtaylor]

What meter are you using for a mash temp reading?

17 bucks...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GDC4GQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[The_Bishop]

RPIScotty, I would like to point out that when you spoke about using a mash pH of 5.2, you were saying that the measurement was at room temperature. If that's the case, then your pH at mashing temperatures is in the 4.9 range, which is low.

I believe that the section on pH in Kunze's bit there is referring to pH measured at mashing temperatures. This is where things get a little sideways when referring to documentation on mash pH readings, unless the author of said work specifically states the temperature of the sample when measuring.

I'd like to clarify something that I may have overstated. A low mash PH in a beer with a significant proportion of roasted grains doesn't make the beer undrinkable. It does tend to give the perception of a thinner mouthfeel, and to my palate a sharp, dry and acrid note in the roasted flavors that I'd rather avoid.

While a mash pH of exactly 5.2 enhances enzyme activity there are other considerations. Beer flavor and mouthfeel are equally important in regards to formulating a recipe. Certain flavors can be enhanced by manipulating the wort pH, and other undesirable flavors may be enhanced if the pH is too low or too high. Hop bittering and perception is another consideration for certain styles of beer, and it is definitely impacted by wort pH, which is in turn influenced by mash pH.

Even though enzyme activity might not be 'optimal' at a slightly higher mash pH, it's still sufficient to convert the starches in the grain we're all working with.

Brewing is as much 'art' as it is 'science.' There may not be a cohesive, scientific reason that big roasty beers are perceived as 'better' with a higher mash pH; it just works out that way.

Your results may be different due to any number of factors. Less or different types of roasted malt in the grist, for one. Perhaps you prefer the dryer/sharper roast character. Could be any number of things.

Tell you what; when I hit the lottery I'll gather us all in a big 'beer lab' and we can run experiments until we're tired of them.

 

[Big Monk]

RPIScotty, I would like to point out that when you spoke about using a mash pH of 5.2, you were saying that the measurement was at room temperature. If that's the case, then your pH at mashing temperatures is in the 4.9 range, which is low.

I believe that the section on pH in Kunze's bit there is referring to pH measured at mashing temperatures. This is where things get a little sideways when referring to documentation on mash pH readings, unless the author of said work specifically states the temperature of the sample when measuring.

I'd like to clarify something that I may have overstated. A low mash PH in a beer with a significant proportion of roasted grains doesn't make the beer undrinkable. It does tend to give the perception of a thinner mouthfeel, and to my palate a sharp, dry and acrid note in the roasted flavors that I'd rather avoid.

While a mash pH of exactly 5.2 enhances enzyme activity there are other considerations. Beer flavor and mouthfeel are equally important in regards to formulating a recipe. Certain flavors can be enhanced by manipulating the wort pH, and other undesirable flavors may be enhanced if the pH is too low or too high. Hop bittering and perception is another consideration for certain styles of beer, and it is definitely impacted by wort pH, which is in turn influenced by mash pH.

Even though enzyme activity might not be 'optimal' at a slightly higher mash pH, it's still sufficient to convert the starches in the grain we're all working with.

Brewing is as much 'art' as it is 'science.' There may not be a cohesive, scientific reason that big roasty beers are perceived as 'better' with a higher mash pH; it just works out that way.

Your results may be different due to any number of factors. Less or different types of roasted malt in the grist, for one. Perhaps you prefer the dryer/sharper roast character. Could be any number of things.

Tell you what; when I hit the lottery I'll gather us all in a big 'beer lab' and we can run experiments until we're tired of them.

Convention is pretty clear and agreed upon as reported pH and recommended pH optima are at room temperature. Going all the way back to DeClerck this is the case.

So in that sense, mashing at from 5.2-5.6 as is most recommended across many texts and by many authors means mash temp pH of 5.0-5.4.

Also, I don't get those flavors you describe. I get a full, flavorful, roasty beer. I do however use less roast malt than most. So there may be something to that.

Kai has pointed out that the whole mash temp pH vs room temp pH argument is irrelevant because by convention we are always talking about room temp pH for reporting measurements and optimum pH.

You have me thinking about a thought experiment:

Say you and I set out to brew a RIS. We are going to brew together and when complete taste the two beers together.

I am going to target 5.2 room temp pH and my recipe will be as follows:

80% Weyermann Pale
7% Flaked Oats
3% Caramunich II
3% Special B
3.5% Roasted Barley
3.5% Chocolate

You are going to target 5.6 room temp pH and your recipe will be very similar except you reduce base malt and increase roast malt to 14%.

We taste the beers together and decide they share a similar flavor profile despite their differences.

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation but the concept interests me because it seems to reflect what we are saying to one another.

I was also thinking about a stout I did about a year ago that was very similar to what I described above. The DI pH of the Weyermann malt was 5.90 so with that recipe I actually had to acidify with a bit of acid malt to get to 5.25. It was full flavored with smooth roast. Just delicious.

I wonder if the amounts of roast Malts typically used in these beers, coupled with the use of NaHCO3 to add alkalinity has something to do with aiming for 5.6 as well. I know that when we were developing and implementing the Sauergut calculations in our spreadsheet, we notice anomalous behavior of the Sauergut when NaHCO3 was present.