Whats your carbon footprint... about beer, really.

[kidsmakeyoucrazy]

Myself or PatientZero?

I didn't say that I agreed with his comments, just that it gave me a chuckle. As a professional environmental scientist, my perspective is considerably different, and I have a better perspective on what a hippie ****** bag is. They also fall under the definition of hypocrite. They probably drive a Prius, smoke American Spirits. They have all the answers, and you are wrong, no matter what you do or think. I've had a lot of dealing with hippie ****** bags.

If you really want to discuss the subject, I'll tell the simple fact is that we've got a long way to go in a number of areas, reducing 'carbon footprints' is one of them, but I am not sure how effective that really is. The earth has more emissions from volcanic sources than anything we do. If you really want to do something that has real results you should try an stop the contamination of water, both surface water and groundwater, and shallow soils, where it impacts people, animals, and plants.

You are a wise person. We need people like you involved in environmental issues...not nutjobs who don't understand the gulf of mexico oozes more oil naturally (which is dealt with naturally) than is spilled or that CO2 is heavier than air and most of that carbon winds up right where it came from...

 

[withak]

I'm not going to go all political or anything...I'm just going to propose a simple experiment to show the average person what happens to the vast majority of CO2...Take a 2 cup measure and place about 1/4 inch of baking soda (bicarbonate of soda) in it. Now pour 1/2 cup of vinegar into the same container and let it sit for a minute. While you are letting it sit, go get a candle and bring it to your work area. Light said candle. Now take your cup (which is now full of CO2) and gently "pour" it onto the candle....do not let any liquid exit the measure......candle went out didn't it? Why is that?

FYI when we talk about CO2 as a greenhouse gas we aren't talking about some huge pocket of pure CO2 somewhere (which would sink given the absence of any wind or heat, like this), we are talking about increases in the average global atmospheric CO2 concentration. Wind and temperature changes prevent the atmosphere from separating into layers of pure gas based on density. Science is always more fun when you bother to learn it right.

 

[kidsmakeyoucrazy]

FYI when we talk about CO2 as a greenhouse gas we aren't talking about some huge pocket of pure CO2 somewhere (which would sink given the absence of any wind or heat, like this), we are talking about increases in the average global atmospheric CO2 concentration. Wind and temperature changes prevent the atmosphere from separating into layers of pure gas based on density. Science is always more fun when you bother to learn it right.

So are you saying that wind magically makes CO2 lighter than the surrounding components of air? Does wind or heat somehow alter the mass of a CO2 molecule to make it lighter than an O2 or other component of air? If that were the case wouldn't all the plants on our planet have evolved to consume another form of energy? I'm pretty sure CO2 is their main source. My point is that CO2 will settle out sort of like yeast. It's heavier than the other components of "air". A single volcanic eruption can emit more CO2 than we do. I don't buy it.

I am a realist though. There is a finite amount of consumables on this remarkable rock we live on. We should do everything we can to conserve those....but tell me how twisted this is....burning wood is now considered a good thing when the greenies were screaming at the top of their lungs 30 years ago that it was evil.....but now they have the "carbon footprint" BS to play off of so it's ok to burn wood...if you plant a tree in it's place.

I never gave a crap either way. Wood, coal, gas....it all came from the same source if you trace it back. Only wood is close to sustainable, but what will the impact of "wood farms" be? Will we not have enough CO2 and freeze?

Ok, rant off. I'm just tired of everybody telling me that every single thing we do is going to kill us dead.

 

[kidsmakeyoucrazy]

FYI when we talk about CO2 as a greenhouse gas we aren't talking about some huge pocket of pure CO2 somewhere (which would sink given the absence of any wind or heat, like this), we are talking about increases in the average global atmospheric CO2 concentration. Wind and temperature changes prevent the atmosphere from separating into layers of pure gas based on density. Science is always more fun when you bother to learn it right.

I suggest you read your link....this has absolutely nothing to do with atmospheric CO2. You are talking about a lake where the temperature gradient changed enough to allow CO2 to release from solution.....

 

[withak]

So are you saying that wind magically makes CO2 lighter than the surrounding components of air? Does wind or heat somehow alter the mass of a CO2 molecule to make it lighter than an O2 or other component of air? If that were the case wouldn't all the plants on our planet have evolved to consume another form of energy? I'm pretty sure CO2 is their main source. My point is that CO2 will settle out sort of like yeast. It's heavier than the other components of "air". A single volcanic eruption can emit more CO2 than we do. I don't buy it.

CO2 isn't that much denser than the rest of the air; wind and convection currents are more than enough to keep it stirred up pretty well. If atmospheric gasses could really separate out on their own then we would all be dead already.

 

[withak]

I suggest you read your link....this has absolutely nothing to do with atmospheric CO2. You are talking about a lake where the temperature gradient changed enough to allow CO2 to release from solution.....

The link was about what happens if you have a big mass of mostly pure CO2. My point was that the atmosphere never holds still long enough for gases to separate out by density like near the killer lakes and in the experiment he described (which by the way you can replicate using a blowoff tube from your fermenter to fill a cup with CO2 to pour over the candle without wasting any vinegar or baking soda).

 

[moti_mo]

I suggest you read your link....this has absolutely nothing to do with atmospheric CO2. You are talking about a lake where the temperature gradient changed enough to allow CO2 to release from solution.....

He was writing that in response to several of your comments which make it seem like you think our atmosphere is stratified and CO2 will "settle out" because it is more dense. This only happens in cases where no mixing occurs - in extremely still, preferably closed systems.

 

[kidsmakeyoucrazy]

Didn't the fact that that CO2 is denser than other components of our atmosphere cause the deaths of 1700 people in the link you provided? The CO2 was able to build up due to the tremendous pressure of the water above it. Something caused that water which was super saturated with CO2 to rise and release the CO2 once the pressure decreased...but where did that CO2 go? If it floated up into the upper atmosphere would that have killed anyone? I'm not saying that zero CO2 ends up in the atmosphere. Most of it settles though and our contribution is minor compared to what the Earth contributes all by itself.

 

[withak]

Didn't the fact that that CO2 is denser than other components of our atmosphere cause the deaths of 1700 people in the link you provided? The CO2 was able to build up due to the tremendous pressure of the water above it. Something caused that water which was super saturated with CO2 to rise and release the CO2 once the pressure decreased...but where did that CO2 go? If it floated up into the upper atmosphere would that have killed anyone? I'm not saying that zero CO2 ends up in the atmosphere. Most of it settles though and our contribution is minor compared to what the Earth contributes all by itself.

The wind stirred it in to the rest of the atmosphere shortly after it came out of the lake. If CO2 is settling out of the atmosphere then where is it going? How are people able to go in to Death Valley and near the Dead Sea without suffocating?

 

[moti_mo]

Didn't the fact that that CO2 is denser than other components of our atmosphere cause the deaths of 1700 people in the link you provided? The CO2 was able to build up due to the tremendous pressure of the water above it. Something caused that water which was super saturated with CO2 to rise and release the CO2 once the pressure decreased...but where did that CO2 go? If it floated up into the upper atmosphere would that have killed anyone? I'm not saying that zero CO2 ends up in the atmosphere. Most of it settles though and our contribution is minor compared to what the Earth contributes all by itself.

It killed 1700 people because it was an extremely rapid release of extremely pure CO2, which on a relatively localized and temporary scale, raised the CO2 concentration and lowered the O2 concentration enough at ground level so that the people in that area suffocated. That elevated level would then mix with the rest of the atmosphere from wind, thermal convection, etc. etc. so that if you gave that area just a little bit of time, there would be no danger of suffocation. As was said, if our atmosphere really didn't behave like this, we would all be dead b/c the CO2 blanket that would have formed at ground level long ago wouldn't allow us O2-breathers to live.

Once the CO2 is in our atmosphere, its there to stay. For a gas to escape our atmosphere, it has to be light enough to have a kinetic velocity that exceeds what is called the escape velocity. This is why hydrogen gas isn't abundant in our atmosphere, and why our atmosphere is livable for plants and animals - because oxygen and carbon dioxide are too heavy to escape the atmosphere. Which is yet another reason that, no matter how much CO2 the earth naturally puts out, we are in new territory geologically speaking because we are putting out record amounts of CO2 from human sources that will remain in our atmosphere - barring any huge, unproven sequestration strategies.

The exact ramifications of putting out that much CO2 are somewhat unknown and may be open to debate, so everyone can make their own choices about how to live their lives. But at a bare minimum, its good to be educated on the fact that humans are putting out tremendous amounts of CO2 into the air, raising the concentrations to higher than they have ever been, and we are entering completely new territory with regards to the environment we are creating for ourselves (and kids).