What's wrong with education today?

[GarageDweller]

its all a part of the grand scheme to control the masses. gradually dumb down education in the country so the youth won't have the mental capacity to make crucial decisions as adults. then they are much easier to feed lies to and control; via mass-media and commercials/ads. you don't have to be smart to eat at the drive-thru, just have to be stupid enough to feed on the lies.

Jailhouse gets empty,
Rudy gets plenty.

 

[Calichusetts]

I did not read too much of this thread so I don't know where it has gone, to me I don't believe in our education system at all, I home school my kids.

I don't feel our system is designed to "teach" anyone anything, it's all about memorizing what's going to be on the test so that you get a good grade so the school can get more funding. I don't blame teachers for doing their job they are just simply following the rules that are in place. Teachers have a great passion for what they do and enjoy it.

I think student lead learning is the best way to learn (my personal opinion) if you have an interest in what you are learning you will find a way to learn more about it. Kind of like home brewing isn't that why we are all here on this forum to "learn"?

Memorizing books doesn't "teach" you anything but finding something you like and researching it is "learning" about it.

This was teaching 40-50 years ago. Today, cooperative learning is the norm. Most teachers know, lecture is actually the worst way to learn and retain knowledge (think of that when paying your kid's college tuition.) Kids learn by teaching others and discovering on their own. This is how I run my classroom. I often have to remind them "the answer is in your head, not a book." And often respond "you tell me the answer." They hate this at first, but begin to realize how smart they are and that they can teach themselves. I call what you talk about "regurgitation" and its not teaching. Its on its way out if not gone.

I don't teach, I guide. If you hear kids are learning the way you describe, go to a PTO meeting and voice this, write letters to local media. This is not teaching and people should be help accountable.

 

[nutty_gnome]

This method was done as an experiment in student-guided learning in conjunction with the 'open classroom' technique at one of our regional schools when I was in elementary school. It was supposed to be a modern approach and they even built it within a 'modern' geodesic dome (see pic below). I have family that were in that school and it was an unmitigated disaster for any student that wasn't self-driven or pushed by parents to perform. Maybe a third of the kids went two years without advancing in reading, writing, or math. The kids were just encouraged to walk around to various learning centers and progress at their own pace. I don't know how anyone thought that was an improvement over the norm. But it was the wild and wooly 70's....

In college, the self guided approach works. But not in grades 1-7.

As a side note - With regard to math, I don't find common core to be an improvement over simply memorizing math facts for kids under age 10. Any normal kid can memorize something if they want to.... video games and pokemon cards are proof of that.

 

[chezhed]

it's all about memorizing what's going to be on the test so that you get a good grade so the school can get more funding.

This is exactly how the student I helped put it.

 

[jcoxen]

As child of the 60s (as in, "I started 1st Grade in 1966"), I've seen a lot of different "improvements" in education over the years.

I think I could make a good argument for going back to McGuffey Readers and Ray's Arithmetic.

 

[grathan]

I think part of the problem is we pay teachers what they think they are worth and it's one big social clique where they get their friends and neighbors jobs. There are people who would volunteer to teach children because their heart is drawn there and they would be excellent at it, but the job will go to the local farmer's daughter because Joe Bud is on the school board. So the daughter starts out with high pay and benefits and I am forced to pay for it regardless of my opinion of her teaching.

A better option in my opinion would be to allow volunteers in the class room. And then pay scale would be based on demand. So if people like a teacher they can pay more to put their child in that class, kind of like a bidding process. I know this favors more financially well off students so perhaps a way to open some spots based on testing scores.

Also paying bus driver and cafeteria workers pensions and health benefits takes money away from students. Bus should be done away with in public school systems altogether. Logistics nightmare that is has become. School food is dismal. We feed prisoners better.


Schools should allow smarter kids more stay home days if they can progress through testing. Instead of forcing them to appear and here re-iteration of already taught lessons, if they can pass the week's test on a home computer, they don't even have show up that week. Or they could opt to attend advancement learning seminars at the school if they desired.

Actually schools should just be taught at home on a computer terminal. I know the whole interaction thing is great, but it creates too big of a demand on the local taxpayers they way things are going. It would be cheaper to wire a whole community with fiber network and supply every student with a computer then it would be to ship them to a heated/cool building every day full of big salaried workers who will demand money well past their working years.

$12 million dollars every year and growing for town (medium) just 1900 households. For glorified baby-sitters.

 

[Leithoa]

They've been forced into the role of glorified baby-sitters. The attitude that they are such doesn't help change things either. When parents send their kids to school unprepared to learn it holds everyone back and wastes money.

I'm sure there is some favortism in job searches but with state oversight it's hard to hire completely unqualified people. There are as many people with the desire to teach that are absolutely horrible at it as there are people with no desire to teach to are great at it.
Enjoying basketball does not make you LeBron James.

Distance learning is becoming more economic and in some instances effective. For elementary school though it would be detrimental overall. One of the rolls of schools is to help children learn to communicate with other people and form social bonds. If you spend your childhood staring at a screen in your room, you're gonna have a rough time talking to people when you enter the real world. People need interactions. It also again makes life hard for house holds where the parents work all day. How do you ensure your child is actually home, let alone doing their school work?

Memorization helps speed things along but like one of the teachers(I assume) said rote memorization doesn't help you apply the concept to real world situations unless they match exactly. Teaching students the methods to solve problems, giving them real world examples, and encouraging collaboration work better.

@ grathan
I'm confused as to why you think cafateria workers, bus drivers, and janitors are 'big salary' workers who don't deserve a pension if they put in the time. I'm also pretty sure if you asked teachers what they thought they were worth it would be well higher than the 56k national average, or even the 75k NY average. Mind you this is the average for all teachers. Starting average pay is 36k nationally and 43k for NY(pay rate)
We've got assembly line workers who are glorified robots who get paid at least this much and get pensions but few people complain about that. Since it's not an assembly line workers thread I won't assume what your stance on them is.

 

[grathan]

BY kindergarten the social interaction has already missed the bus. The school is just a ban-aid that point.

I feel that is big salary because the per capita income here is half that (and you know the true cost in the long run is the benefits anyways). If they based teacher's salaries on taxpayer's incomes, that would be great. Instead you have schools here just trying to stop the poaching from bigger districts and being forced to pay going rates for qualified school staff.

I would rather see a factory worker earning a pension because they don't leech onto the taxpayer. I should note that my health care is covered by a town even poorer than my own, due to my wife being a teacher, but it's not like you can just turn it down, that would be foolish. And there lies the problem. A huge establishment of tax sucking leeches. Unionized public teachers demanding %5 of my home's value(my biggest asset) annually.

I start to look at it as if it is worth it to educate every single child. When you look at what most people end up doing to contribute to society after they've been educated you have to wonder if intelligence isn't just something some people are born with. They would learn all the stuff they needed even if schools didn't exist. And the non-intelligent ones, you have to wonder if it has made a difference that they can read or write. ( I am specifically speaking of the internet age with video conferencing .. and speaking of robots ).

 

[Transamguy77]

This was teaching 40-50 years ago. Today, cooperative learning is the norm. Most teachers know, lecture is actually the worst way to learn and retain knowledge (think of that when paying your kid's college tuition.) Kids learn by teaching others and discovering on their own. This is how I run my classroom. I often have to remind them "the answer is in your head, not a book." And often respond "you tell me the answer." They hate this at first, but begin to realize how smart they are and that they can teach themselves. I call what you talk about "regurgitation" and its not teaching. Its on its way out if not gone.

I don't teach, I guide. If you hear kids are learning the way you describe, go to a PTO meeting and voice this, write letters to local media. This is not teaching and people should be help accountable.

It sounds like you have a great way of teaching and if the schools around me were like that I'd send my kids there but they are not.

To be completely honest I am comfortable with home schooling and I know it works, my 16 year old is now in college taking prerequisites for engineering.

When my middle son was in school (because he asked to go) I had to go and talk with his teacher because he had a problem with reading comprehension (or so they said) when I asked them what they had him read and when they told me what it was, I explained that he really had no interest in that and can he read something else and I was told "no he has to read it, everyone has to read it, that is what was mandated and there is no other option".

Home schooling may not be an option for everyone but it works for my family.

 

[Leithoa]

I start to look at it as if it is worth it to educate every single child. When you look at what most people end up doing to contribute to society after they've been educated you have to wonder if intelligence isn't just something some people are born with.

There's a difference between intelligence and being smart. Sure good genes goes a long way towards scoring perfect on the SAT but so does sitting down with the books. Even if 90% of HS grads go on to mop floors or drive truck if we don't have an educated populace with an understanding of how the world works how can we expect them to vote based on an informed decision, not run themselves into debt, or any number of other basic necessities of modern living?

I'm no sociologist/child psychologist but social interactions are important way beyond the preschool and kindergarten years. Sure you can get this from youth sports, boy scouts, youth groups and other places but many of these cost money that some families can't afford. So again pushing kids in front of a monitor with limited social interactions will hinder more than help.

Truly sorry you don't see the benefit to public education.

@Transamguy77
It sounds more like your son has trouble following instructions that are based on the 'because I said so and I am the authority figure' justification. Not to say this is a bad thing but every test(SAT, proficiency, GRE) he will ever take will have some banal passage he has to read in order to establish his reading comprehension.

 

[Yourrealdad]

Man, where to begin with this. So many points brought up I don't where to start. Full disclosure I am a 7th grade public education teacher so of course I am to be biased, however I am also what I think to be an intelligent social studies teacher who understands the bigger picture.

I also happen to be about ready to wrap up a dual Masters degree in Special Education and Culturally and Linguistically Diverse Education, and to procrastinate on writing a paper I should be writing I will write on here instead.

Some posts have discussed the effects of culture on learning and parent/community involvement. It definitely will impact a child's learning, however it goes deeper than just the culture. There are barriers to collaboration and involvement that go beyond a person's culture. You have to look at their social capital, how they perceive the school system based on their own personal experiences with the school system, how they have been treated by teachers and the school as adults and parents, time barriers such as work commutes and second jobs. That being said if their original culture and upbringing sees schooling as the job of the teacher, then you have to make great efforts to meet with them and collaborate on how to do what is best for their child and it won't always be how to get a higher test score or what the teacher thinks is best. Are there families that just don't care about their children's education, yes there are, but they were around since the start of the school system. People have priorities and they aren't always what you want.

Memorization shouldn't really be what is happening in school these days. Yes, vocabulary or formulas need to be memorized and basic level info needs to be stored so that you can understand the deeper level concepts, but most schools have moved away from rote memorization, especially by late elementary and middle school. The focus with standards and common core is concepts and understanding how and why things are, not just accepting the fact and using it. I would be surprised if a school still focused on this. If you don't believe me, get a visitors badge and go in for a day and observe. You are paying for it, see where you money goes.

Will money solve everything? No, and I don't think there many, if any, situations where money would solve the problem. Would it help? Yes. Poor urban schools are at a complete disadvantage in the technology and quality of teacher they can get. If you can make the schools equitable then you can increase the likelihood that the students will succeed.

It has also been shown that the number one factor to a child's academic success is not their genes, or their family's involvement, or how nice the school is, it is the quality of the teacher. Just because you have a good heart and want to help children doesn't make you a great teacher. If you want great teachers to stick around you had better make sure that you show that you appreciate them. And yes paying a livable wage helps. Right now in CO, which is absurdly low in public education funding, a teacher can have their own kids qualify for free and reduced lunch. I personally will have a Masters, 7 years of experience at the same job and still make under 40K. (My class sizes are usually 29-35 students, this is the first year I have all classes under 30, and I put in no less than 12 hour days at the actual school building). I am not complaining or bragging because I could be a better teacher and still need to get better, but in the end you can only bend so much.

I also agree that teacher unions are not the solution. They allow bad teachers to stay in business. I cannot think of another job where you don't have to have a performance review that is tied into how much you earn or if you get to keep your job. The teachers that complain about losing tenure are most likely the ones who would be fired.

To those that complain about your taxes being wasted, that is fine. Put your kids in private schools, do not drive on public roads, do not use public land such as parks, national forests, etc. Do not worry about the future generations that will take care of you or solve the problems you created. I pay taxes just like you except the only difference is that I actually have to pay money into my own account. Hmmmm shouldn't I be the one complaining about having to pay my own salary?

Also the continuing use of "all" or "every" or the anecdotal experience to stereotype the circumstances around education should stop. Public education is not an entity that is the same from school to school in the same district let alone state to state.

The problem with education is that there are lots of problems with education and like anything that is not perfect people want to find the singular cure-all for it. People want to blame whatever side they are not on for the problem. Instead of arguing about what causes the problem, people should come together to figure out how the solutions can be accomplished.

Sometimes those problem solving skills come from figuring out how to engineer a robot to fight another robot. Let the robots do the fighting.

Rant over

 

[grathan]

. Even if 90% of HS grads go on to mop floors or drive truck if we don't have an educated populace with an understanding of how the world works how can we expect them to vote based on an informed decision, not run themselves into debt, or any number of other basic necessities of modern living?


Truly sorry you don't see the benefit to public education.
.

You're putting too much value on the voting process. It's a self-serving clique of tax dollar leeches. The only people who vote are the people who have something to gain and they are usually connected to tax dollar leeching in some way, shape, or form. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that people pushing a broom can stop and talk about current events in an understandable manner, but what if that person started their broom-pushing at a much younger age instead? People enter the work force in their mid-twenties have already avoided working through some of their best physically-capable years. How about a reformed society where young people work instead of sitting in a classroom and actually get to retire one day? Instead of a society full of college educated people who contribute absolutely nothing on a world-wide scale, we would have a great increase in GDP and a lot more work-like activity going on.

 

[Leithoa]

People enter the work force in their mid-twenties have already avoided working through some of their best physically-capable years.

There aren't as many physical labor jobs around these days. The US economy is no longer based on manufacturing. Mechanization has replaced hard labor in mines and factories and will only continue. Until the 'self serving tax leeches' decide to change our economy back to a manufacturing base it makes more sense to train people to use computers and sit in an office for 8 hours a day doing mundane tasks.
Does every person need a college education? No nor is that that topic at hand. A strong base from primary and secondary education is needed.
Even machinists need to understand the concepts of trigonometry. Sure most will use a set of tables or purpose built slide rule for calculations but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach the subject. Schooling is to prepare people for university or vo-tech study. It's broad spectrum and has to apply to those going on to med school just as much as those going on to landscaping. Until Huxlean genetic engineering or sorting hat technology comes to market there is no reliable way to predict the job someone will have.
When that happens then maybe you'll get your wish. For now we have to work with the system we have.

 

[grathan]

You could leave it up to people to train themselves or the employers. The idea of paying to prepare everyone to do every single job is a bit insane.

It doesn't have to be a manufacturing comeback. It could start with raking leaves, building roads, entertaining the elderly, farming, construction, neighborhood watch, community painting/gardening/cooking.

Anything but sitting a large building all day, every day, day after day.

 

[Leithoa]

You're never going to convince a free market economy to pay to specially train every single person in the company. It's impossible to make a profit if you have to train all 200 people in your company to use a computer or to do algebra.
There needs to be some base of common education.
We are in a global economy and the march towards total global commerce will proceed until successful off-world colonies are realized. If we remain un- or under- educated we will find ourselves in the position of rural China or Latin America. That is, forced into subsistence living, or migrant labor.
That's not to say that these are horrible ways to live, but they are unimaginably lower than most of us are used to, and completely avoidable. I think you misunderstand my point, yes we are providing people from all walks of life with a basic education but it is far from training people for every job out there.
We are only able to stand of the shoulders of giants if we understand their work. We only identify and encourage those geniuses when we challenge them. Sure public education has proven time and again to fail to challenge above average intelligence but if nothing else it serves as a sieve to find them.
It is, in the long run, in my and your interest to pay for future janitors and fry cook's to struggle through honors history class.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

The skills acquired in creating a battle bot are easily transferred to other projects. What is wrong with having fun while learning?

BINGO! Having fun with the tools required to do a job/solve a problem often inspire. If necessity is the mother of invention, creative fun would be the father.

Regards, GF.

 

[grathan]

You're never going to convince a free market economy to pay to specially train every single person in the company. It's impossible to make a profit if you have to train all 200 people in your company to use a computer or to do algebra.
There needs to be some base of common education.
We are in a global economy and the march towards total global commerce will proceed until successful off-world colonies are realized. If we remain un- or under- educated we will find ourselves in the position of rural China or Latin America. That is, forced into subsistence living, or migrant labor.
That's not to say that these are horrible ways to live, but they are unimaginably lower than most of us are used to, and completely avoidable. I think you misunderstand my point, yes we are providing people from all walks of life with a basic education but it is far from training people for every job out there.
We are only able to stand of the shoulders of giants if we understand their work. We only identify and encourage those geniuses when we challenge them. Sure public education has proven time and again to fail to challenge above average intelligence but if nothing else it serves as a sieve to find them.
It is, in the long run, in my and your interest to pay for future janitors and fry cook's to struggle through honors history class.

You seem to think that kids will not be fairly educated even without formal education. You think kids won't use computers without schools and their Tandy computer training? DO you think they won't be masters of video games ( most likely a highly desirable skill one day )? Sure the slums of Detroit and Brooklyn and the reaches of Louisiana would create some unhireables, but isn't that the case now as well?

What if you took the $10k/yr per kid spent now and bought them a brand new top if the line computer with fiber optic line right to their door? What if you created vast amounts of free educational content? You think the social skills would be worse than they are now?

Honestly, I think we treat kids more like slaves than anything and they are demoralized and unhappy because of it. It's not only the money wasted, but their precious lives as well. This trend will only get worse with pending economic crunch placed on taxpayers by the generations before them. Kids need them to have more say in their paths and less direction from high-paid administrative losers. Other countries outspend the US by at least a 2-1 margin on specialized education while we continue to blow it all on glorified day care centers.

 

[stevehardt]

There is no single "problem" with our educational system. It is a complex problem made up of a combination of problems, many of which have been discussed here. There is no silver bullet. The best solutions occur on an individual, not systemic level. There is no substitute for a motivated student with supportive parents.

 

[Leithoa]

You seem to think that kids will not be fairly educated even without formal education. You think kids won't use computers without schools and their Tandy computer training? DO you think they won't be masters of video games ( most likely a highly desirable skill one day )?

No more fairly than they currently are.
Your community can spend 10k/yr per student, others can probably pay 100k/yr. How can rural Montana hope to compete with silicon valley?
People don't want to pay for the education in their own town, how will you convince them to pay for another town, another state?
Who will supervise the children while they cruise this source of vast, complete, well written, knowledge? If not to ensure they are being productive at least to keep them safe or feed them.Again this favors well to do communities where one parent can afford to not work all day. Maybe some of your volunteers will show up at first, but no one works for free forever. Everyone needs to get paid, even if its not in money.

I'm not saying kids won't use computers without school to hold their hands, but no one uses excel because it's a fun program. And yes, social skills could be worse.

 

[grathan]

I would guess that less than %10 of school funding comes from its own community. The rest is people paying for other communities.



I wouldn't say that nobody learns Excel for fun. I've done just that. Even learned low level C languages in spare time just to see how they work. That is the beauty of educating yourself vs. being forced to learn what other people think you should know.


I don't think a community that worked together would be poor at all. In fact, I think poverty might even disappear.

 

[Yourrealdad]

I have attached a screen shot of the budget for some of the schools in Colorado. You will notice that the property taxes are above 10%, some around 25% and then you have to factor in specific ownership taxes (vehicle taxes) from each county. It is in Excel which I didn't teach myself cause it is boring and confusing and frustrating and no one made me, so I played Halo instead. No one has ever asked if I was a 5 Star General in an interview so I don't know if that ever helped me secure a job.

Some kiddos will teach themselves, but they have to be taught to teach themselves most of the time if that makes sense. Trust me, I actually do this for a living and I am not talking about kindergartners, I teach 7th graders, who are actually like kindergartners because of the hormones eating holes in their brains.

We don't force them to learn what we want because we want to control them, we teach them a multitude of skills because the brain needs to be challenged in a variety of ways, even if they don't like it. Who in the history of the world has gotten to do only things they like doing their whole life? They would never make it, no way of dealing with adversity and stretching their comfort zone.

Plus who really knows what they want to do in life before high school and college, or even then. Sure, someone will reply with an anecdotal story about how they always wanted to do this and that and they have been doing it for years. I will say for every one of those stories there is many more that don't go that way.

If you make learning fun, if you are honest with students about why they are learning what they are learning, present them with an achievable goal, and most importantly treat them with the respect they deserve as equal human beings then they will most likely work hard for you. Students work for the ones they love.

 

[grathan]

That could be the case in CO. Even if it were %100 it still wouldn't be worth it.

I've been a home owner for 10 years, but in which time the property taxes here have more than doubled. The parking lot at the schools are so crammed with teacher's cars they pile out onto the street. The cars are so nice, they rival the ones on the backside of the hospital. No lie, you can tell when you are following a teacher by the way they drive ( I go by the school on the way home in the morning) and can always tell by the aggressive, arrogant driving habits in a nice car that they will make the turns required to head to the school.

That said, My 3 kids get a phenomenal education for the pittance I spend. But it isn't sustainable. I went through the tax rolls for my entire town this week and Most of the large farms owe back taxes. If I had to choose between affordable farming or education for my kids, I would pick farming every time. Farmers can't unionize the way public school teachers can and demand living wages or go on strike though. Our local firehouse of which I am a member has had the building condemned and we can no longer use it to train in or store trucks in. The school has brand new fleet of buses and bus garage though... When the school votes come up most working people are too busy to vote and rely on others to make good choices, but I'd bet if you counted all the "yes" votes and subtracted all those with a job or related to someone in the school system, those close votes would start looking like landslides towards "no". This will become more apparent as more people retire and have less money and more time to vote.

And what if a budget got shot down? Why is it the first thing that goes is the sports/art/music programs or anything fun for the kids? Why is it never the administration's 6-figure salaries that get cut? Why does each school need it's own administration? I'd bet there are 10 schools nearby that are so similar in function that a single administration could run each of them effectively.

 

[Yourrealdad]

Grathan,
Sounds like education is not the problem in your area, but voters and representation, and driving.

We don't have nice cars unless we married a sugar mama/papa (which most teachers probably need to do).

Farmers actually have once of the strongest influences on our politicians and we subsidize the snot out of them and often times pay them to not grow food.

We just had a new fire station built in the city.

We also had our bond and mill levy denied and so had to go to a 4 day work week. I have also had a pay freeze for 4 out of the 7 years I have worked at the school. I am currently paid like a 3 year teacher.

My principal is great and is one of the biggest reasons I stay at the school. I could leave and work in the city I live in and make about 7-9 grand more (they passed their bonds/levy).

Our two middle schools our so different and so far away that it would never work.

BTW I don't know if you understand all the work administration has to do? No way you could run two schools well with one principal etc. And unless someone has been a principal for many many years the only one in our district making 6 figures is the superintendent. Don't know how that works in NY, but I can't imagine upstate NY is paying people that much.

Just saying.

P.S. people might be driving aggressively cause you are on the East Coast. Come on out to CO where we are a little more laid back.

 

[kombat]

I would guess that less than %10 of school funding comes from its own community. The rest is people paying for other communities.

Huh? I don't understand this - can you clarify? Those "other communities" that are providing 90% of your school funding, do they not have schools of their own? Who's paying for THOSE schools? I must be misunderstanding what you're trying to say here.

I wouldn't say that nobody learns Excel for fun. I've done just that. Even learned low level C languages in spare time just to see how they work.

We're talking about children here, not adults. Granted, when I was 10, I taught myself BASIC on my Dad's Timex Sinclair 1000. But I recognize that I was an anomaly. The other kids were outside playing baseball.

I think you're overestimating kids' initiative to undertake independent learning. I think if you plop most kids in front of a computer for 6 hours a day and leave them alone, they're just going to spend the day playing Angry Birds or surfing Facebook.

That is the beauty of educating yourself vs. being forced to learn what other people think you should know.

The problem is that there are a great many things that are not at all fun or interesting to learn, but are critical to learn anyway. Kids would not learn these things on their own, but it's vital that they learn them anyway.

I did not enjoy algebra when I took it, but it was core curriculum so I had to take it anyway. Now, as an adult, I'm very grateful that it was taught to me.

 

[Gar]

My brother in laws kid has always been an a student well everything changed this year and in one of her classes she started failing when the parents went to the school to find out whats going on the teacher informed them they are trying something new this year where the parents do the teaching and the teachers do the home work with the kids. i'm not kidding. i put my kid in private school in the middle of second grade because of so many things i saw i couldn't belive they were doing. amazing how all my problems went away as soon as i did. i have nothing good to say of public education.

 

[grathan]

Huh? I don't understand this - can you clarify? Those "other communities" that are providing 90% of your school funding, do they not have schools of their own? Who's paying for THOSE schools? I must be misunderstanding what you're trying to say here.

If you think your massive school tax bill covers the entire cost of education you would be sadly mistaken. Call your school and ask them how much it costs to operate their school and where their funding comes from.

We're talking about children here, not adults. Granted, when I was 10, I taught myself BASIC on my Dad's Timex Sinclair 1000. But I recognize that I was an anomaly. The other kids were outside playing baseball.

I think you're overestimating kids' initiative to undertake independent learning. I think if you plop most kids in front of a computer for 6 hours a day and leave them alone, they're just going to spend the day playing Angry Birds or surfing Facebook.


The problem is that there are a great many things that are not at all fun or interesting to learn, but are critical to learn anyway. Kids would not learn these things on their own, but it's vital that they learn them anyway.

I did not enjoy algebra when I took it, but it was core curriculum so I had to take it anyway. Now, as an adult, I'm very grateful that it was taught to me.

So you spent your entire childhood in a building all day to learn algebra. That's lovely and all, but did you ever stop to think that maybe you could have learned algebra in a fraction of the time later in life?

An example of useless stuff. My 9 year last night is being forced to memorize all the names of Iroquois council. She is such a wonderful kid and really enjoys everything, but lately is whining about homework/school. I don't share my pessimistic viewpoints and try my hardest to make school exciting for her. I don't think they are being fair at all forcing so much onto kids. She'll never remember this stuff later in life and it has not the slightest chance of ever being relevant anyways.

I talked to the wife(teacher) about it and she says it is to develop test taking skills (memorizing boring facts) even if the content is useless. I think this is akin to going to the dentist every day to get your teeth drilled, akin to pummeling a kid every day so he might be good at football one day. People are burnt out before they even contribute anything to society. They interview and sound brilliant memorizing key points, but really are useless because they spent their whole life in a classroom memorizing boring facts.

 

[kombat]

If you think your massive school tax bill covers the entire cost of education you would be sadly mistaken.

Right. But the way you worded it makes it sound like you're saying that since my own property tax bill doesn't come close to covering the cost of my community's schools (you claimed 10%), the difference (90%) is coming from the property tax bills of people in OTHER communities.

My question is: Don't those other communities also have their own schools? And if their property tax bills are being siphoned off to cover the 90% of my own school costs that are not covered by my own property tax bills, then who's paying for THEIR schools?

 

[grathan]

We'll sure they pay for their own and others through taxes as you can imagine. There is no community that doesn't pay school property tax, or state tax, or federal tax, or lotto winnings taxes.

The amounts of additional taxes received from other communities largely varies by state, but a common theme is that the poorest districts receive the most money from other communities.

 

[Dopeybrew]

To the people in this thread who wish to put blame on the teachers. I invite you to kiss my ass.

The government is the issue. I, as a high school science(biology) teacher, am unable to teach the class as I see fit. I am unable to show the kids the wonders of biology. I have to stick to boring ass cut and paste lessons to meet the common core requirements. Those requirements, by the way, are the bane of 99.9% of teachers. And please don't get me started on the recent rash of religious groups demanding their theology being taught as science.

You want better schools? Get the hell out of the classroom. Let the teachers teach. Teachers don't make crap for money, we teach because we want to. It is something that we love.

Parents, make sure you take an interest in your kids schooling at home. Make that little chucklehead of yours do their damn homework. Make sure they understand it. If they and you don't, drop a line to the teacher(most will be more than willing to help your child).

Most people here on this forum came from schools where the teachers were allowed to do their damn job with no interference from anyone else. Go figure that now that everyone and their mother now thinks they know best the school system has gone to hell in a hand basket.

Just my opinion as a teacher of 5 years.

 

[grathan]

To the people in this thread who wish to put blame on the teachers. I invite you to kiss my ass.


Just my opinion as a teacher of 5 years.

Hey, way to make tenure. High 5's all around. I'm glad you've placed %100 of the blame on someone else at only 5 years experience. . Though you are paid to teach what they tell you. If you fail, you're a bad teacher and it's not the student's fault at all. Just remember that and good luck.

 

[Dopeybrew]

Hey, way to make tenure. High 5's all around. I'm glad you've placed %100 of the blame on someone else at only 5 years experience. . Though you are paid to teach what they tell you. If you fail, you're a bad teacher and it's not the student's fault at all. Just remember that and good luck.

I work in a state without tenure. (text removed. Please be civil. -Homer)

Tell you what, work a day as a teacher. Have to deal with know nothing politicians trying to blame you for everything, pointless government tests, students who have the latest and greatest tech/clothing but somehow have parents who can't afford basic school supplies, children who have been passed to high school because prior to that the kids CANT be failed who do nothing but disrupt class(when they can be bothered to show up), parents who don't give a damn, religious groups who get up in arms if you dare try to teach evolution(Im a biology teacher, and evolution is sorta big in that science in case you didn't know). Oh and then while putting up with all of that, you still have to plan your classes, grade papers, and of course teach students. In 5 years I(and many other teachers) have yet to put in a week that was under 80 hours.

The simple issue with schools is there are too many damn cooks in the kitchen. I went to school to do this. I have a degree in biology with a minor in education. I would not pretend to tell you how to do your job, maybe you might want to consider letting me do mine.

(More text removed. Reminder to be civil added to thread. -Homer)

 

[Leithoa]

Is it too late to suggest everyone to Relax, don't worry have a homebrew?

 

[grathan]

Predominance is an interesting word choice. I am sure your kids are blessed even if you're an 80 hour zombie (yeah right, 5 years straight, unless your double-duty janitor for the other 8 hour shift).

No one is blaming teachers for their incompetence, there is incompetence everywhere you look. Join the club.

My problem with education is paying for and forcing kids who don't wanna be there. I know that is probably %100 of them when we're talking about public education. If you gave all your kids the choice tomorrow between a day off and a class with you, they would all choose a day off. As a taxpayer I would choose not to pay for this. Unless we just consider you a daycare worker..

 

[Dopeybrew]

Predominance is an interesting word choice. I am sure your kids are blessed even if you're an 80 hour zombie (yeah right, 5 years straight, unless your double-duty janitor for the other 8 hour shift).

No one is blaming teachers for their incompetence, there is incompetence everywhere you look. Join the club.

My problem with education is paying for and forcing kids who don't wanna be there. I know that is probably %100 of them when we're talking about public education. If you gave all your kids the choice tomorrow between a day off and a class with you, they would all choose a day off. As a taxpayer I would choose not to pay for this. Unless we just consider you a daycare worker..

If you have no idea what you're talking about, you really might want to be quite.
And yes I do work 80 hour weeks. Like I said, try teaching sometime. The work doesn't stop when school gets out. It also starts before school begins. Then there's planning (that's usually done at home).

As to you not wanting to pay me for doing a job that is needed, I'm sure that whatever you do is quite worthless, so I'd imagine that your paycheck could go away as well.

(text removed) Since you seem to think that teachers are nothing more than babysitters, you are PART of the issue with the school system. Not the solution.

(text removed)

 

[tommyguner03]

I work in a state without tenure.

Tell you what, work a day as a teacher. Have to deal with know nothing politicians trying to blame you for everything, pointless government tests, students who have the latest and greatest tech/clothing but somehow have parents who can't afford basic school supplies, children who have been passed to high school because prior to that the kids CANT be failed who do nothing but disrupt class(when they can be bothered to show up), parents who don't give a damn, religious groups who get up in arms if you dare try to teach evolution(Im a biology teacher, and evolution is sorta big in that science in case you didn't know). Oh and then while putting up with all of that, you still have to plan your classes, grade papers, and of course teach students. In 5 years I(and many other teachers) have yet to put in a week that was under 80 hours.

The simple issue with schools is there are too many damn cooks in the kitchen. I went to school to do this. I have a degree in biology with a minor in education. I would not pretend to tell you how to do your job, maybe you might want to consider letting me do mine.

i am not a teacher but my wife is. and i all i can is WOW! being a teacher is not easy as to what a lot of people think. you deal with a lot from the kids to the parents to the others that think they know what the hell they are talking about. how about this my wife just may not see her retirement because the crooked politicians here in Illinois are "borrowing" the money to put in good "use". other words right into their pockets.

 

[grathan]

A good solution would be school tax exempt for anyone who home-schools or pays for private school.

 

[CGVT]

It is not that simple.

The value of your home is tied directly to the quality of your public schools, so even if you home school, private school or have no kids in school, the taxes that you pay for school benefit you and your community directly.

 

[grathan]

The dismantlement would have to start somewhere. When you look at the effect tax dollars have had on the price of education you soon realize that it is bound to implode.

No doubt everyone wants the best schools in their own neighborhood, but should locals be forced to pay for it if they have no say at all in the curriculum?


And what about a choice over who goes to school? Way back in 2008 there were more illegals and children of illegals enrolled in public school then there are people in the entire state of Colorado.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/opinion/educating-illegal-immigrants-is-costly/nQjSw/

 

[Dopeybrew]

What makes you think that 99.99 % of parents are remotely qualified to set up a curriculum? How many people do you honestly think know enough to set a curriculum that is balanced and will allow children to succeed?

What about who gets to go to school? What if there is an area that doesn't think that female or black children should be in school? Should those children be excluded from school?

 

[kombat]

In 5 years I(and many other teachers) have yet to put in a week that was under 80 hours.

Except, of course, for those two entire months you get off every summer.

And a week or two around Christmas.

And another week in March.