What's wrong with education today?

[Calichusetts]

@kombat

Sorry to get you upset but I just can't bring these views into a classroom prior to teaching. If it happens to fit cultural norms, so be it. Its not that Asian, or Jewish or any one group excels over another. Its the a child is supported at home. The race/ethnicity doesn't matter. They may fit patterns but that is not up to me to worry about. I have too many personal examples of kids of all races both rising to the top or struggling to lump them into groups.

Socioeconomic factors are not uncomfortable to talk about...this is the main culprit and usually linked to support at home. It just so happens that many groups fall into certain ones. Money and time are not cultural...IMO.

 

[Beernik]

Somebody tell my how my Irish-Puerto Rican-Japanese daughter is going to do in school.

There has to be a statistic for that.

 

[ACbrewer]

A=1
B=2
C=3.......

I liked his answer too, thought it made more sense in a mathematical way.

QUOTE]

Well I knew that A=1, etc My point was in the absence of reference points, J=1, F=2, M=3, A=4 and therefore any other letter (X, Z) could be 5. Assuming A=1 brings in facts not in evidence (that we are assigning the possition in the Alphabet as the value of the letter). J could have just as easily been 74 (and A 65) ... as it is in ASCII. In which case his solution would still work, unless they letters aren't English but from an other Alphabet, then all bets are off

 

[BrotherBock]

Somebody tell my how my Irish-Puerto Rican-Japanese daughter is going to do in school.

There has to be a statistic for that.

She's already doomed.

 

[Beernik]

She's already doomed.

Doomed is right, but it's because she is the class clown.

Yesterday, she got in trouble for having been perceived to have been making fun of "midgets" (actual word the teacher used) while pretending to be a gnome.

Context: my daughter is below the 3rd percentile on the height-age chart. She might be the shortest kid in her grade.

I told her to tell the teacher "it's dwarves or little people, not midgets."

 

[fuzzy2133]

OP the robotics stuff is more than just building a battle bot. The kids still had to learn power flow, drive train, controls, some structural engineering and wiring. Now add a maximum weight and that can be a good challenge. Not all kids grasp all that easily.

I swear the common core stuff needs to come with a parents guide so we can help our kids at home. My biggest problem is the home work for the math part. I have never bought building materials in fractions (1/6) of a foot for projects.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

"uh, I don't think the kids would find much fun in that."
FUN???? I thought this was about education....solving problems can't be fun? bad teachers I say is the problem

How in the heck am a I going to get my robotic capper built now? I'm a basic old fart mechanical engineer (or used to be)...I can't do PLCs and robots and crap like that

These kids aren't electrical engineers, just like you aren't. They built a robot.

You're telling me that you can't even learn enough to build a robotic capper?

Get off your butt and get solving your own problem, dammit! You're not too old to learn a few new tricks!

 

[Homercidal]

I need a robotic filler. I can cap bottles myself just fine.

Then a robotic cleaner to finish up the job while I have a beer.

 

[chezhed]

These kids aren't electrical engineers, just like you aren't. They built a robot.

You're telling me that you can't even learn enough to build a robotic capper?

Get off your butt and get solving your own problem, dammit! You're not too old to learn a few new tricks!

I'm too busy learning other things that will aid me in my retirement I won't have access to build robots when I live on that beach in the islands mon:fro:
And did I mention it needs to be solar powered

I need a robotic filler. I can cap bottles myself just fine.

Filling is easy for me....capping is difficult with my smashed hands/wrists (too many broken fingers and wrist bones when I was young.)

 

[Transamguy77]

I did not read too much of this thread so I don't know where it has gone, to me I don't believe in our education system at all, I home school my kids.

I don't feel our system is designed to "teach" anyone anything, it's all about memorizing what's going to be on the test so that you get a good grade so the school can get more funding. I don't blame teachers for doing their job they are just simply following the rules that are in place. Teachers have a great passion for what they do and enjoy it.

I think student lead learning is the best way to learn (my personal opinion) if you have an interest in what you are learning you will find a way to learn more about it. Kind of like home brewing isn't that why we are all here on this forum to "learn"?

Memorizing books doesn't "teach" you anything but finding something you like and researching it is "learning" about it.

 

[GarageDweller]

its all a part of the grand scheme to control the masses. gradually dumb down education in the country so the youth won't have the mental capacity to make crucial decisions as adults. then they are much easier to feed lies to and control; via mass-media and commercials/ads. you don't have to be smart to eat at the drive-thru, just have to be stupid enough to feed on the lies.

Jailhouse gets empty,
Rudy gets plenty.

 

[Calichusetts]

I did not read too much of this thread so I don't know where it has gone, to me I don't believe in our education system at all, I home school my kids.

I don't feel our system is designed to "teach" anyone anything, it's all about memorizing what's going to be on the test so that you get a good grade so the school can get more funding. I don't blame teachers for doing their job they are just simply following the rules that are in place. Teachers have a great passion for what they do and enjoy it.

I think student lead learning is the best way to learn (my personal opinion) if you have an interest in what you are learning you will find a way to learn more about it. Kind of like home brewing isn't that why we are all here on this forum to "learn"?

Memorizing books doesn't "teach" you anything but finding something you like and researching it is "learning" about it.

This was teaching 40-50 years ago. Today, cooperative learning is the norm. Most teachers know, lecture is actually the worst way to learn and retain knowledge (think of that when paying your kid's college tuition.) Kids learn by teaching others and discovering on their own. This is how I run my classroom. I often have to remind them "the answer is in your head, not a book." And often respond "you tell me the answer." They hate this at first, but begin to realize how smart they are and that they can teach themselves. I call what you talk about "regurgitation" and its not teaching. Its on its way out if not gone.

I don't teach, I guide. If you hear kids are learning the way you describe, go to a PTO meeting and voice this, write letters to local media. This is not teaching and people should be help accountable.

 

[nutty_gnome]

This method was done as an experiment in student-guided learning in conjunction with the 'open classroom' technique at one of our regional schools when I was in elementary school. It was supposed to be a modern approach and they even built it within a 'modern' geodesic dome (see pic below). I have family that were in that school and it was an unmitigated disaster for any student that wasn't self-driven or pushed by parents to perform. Maybe a third of the kids went two years without advancing in reading, writing, or math. The kids were just encouraged to walk around to various learning centers and progress at their own pace. I don't know how anyone thought that was an improvement over the norm. But it was the wild and wooly 70's....

In college, the self guided approach works. But not in grades 1-7.

As a side note - With regard to math, I don't find common core to be an improvement over simply memorizing math facts for kids under age 10. Any normal kid can memorize something if they want to.... video games and pokemon cards are proof of that.

 

[chezhed]

it's all about memorizing what's going to be on the test so that you get a good grade so the school can get more funding.

This is exactly how the student I helped put it.

 

[jcoxen]

As child of the 60s (as in, "I started 1st Grade in 1966"), I've seen a lot of different "improvements" in education over the years.

I think I could make a good argument for going back to McGuffey Readers and Ray's Arithmetic.

 

[grathan]

I think part of the problem is we pay teachers what they think they are worth and it's one big social clique where they get their friends and neighbors jobs. There are people who would volunteer to teach children because their heart is drawn there and they would be excellent at it, but the job will go to the local farmer's daughter because Joe Bud is on the school board. So the daughter starts out with high pay and benefits and I am forced to pay for it regardless of my opinion of her teaching.

A better option in my opinion would be to allow volunteers in the class room. And then pay scale would be based on demand. So if people like a teacher they can pay more to put their child in that class, kind of like a bidding process. I know this favors more financially well off students so perhaps a way to open some spots based on testing scores.

Also paying bus driver and cafeteria workers pensions and health benefits takes money away from students. Bus should be done away with in public school systems altogether. Logistics nightmare that is has become. School food is dismal. We feed prisoners better.


Schools should allow smarter kids more stay home days if they can progress through testing. Instead of forcing them to appear and here re-iteration of already taught lessons, if they can pass the week's test on a home computer, they don't even have show up that week. Or they could opt to attend advancement learning seminars at the school if they desired.

Actually schools should just be taught at home on a computer terminal. I know the whole interaction thing is great, but it creates too big of a demand on the local taxpayers they way things are going. It would be cheaper to wire a whole community with fiber network and supply every student with a computer then it would be to ship them to a heated/cool building every day full of big salaried workers who will demand money well past their working years.

$12 million dollars every year and growing for town (medium) just 1900 households. For glorified baby-sitters.

 

[Leithoa]

They've been forced into the role of glorified baby-sitters. The attitude that they are such doesn't help change things either. When parents send their kids to school unprepared to learn it holds everyone back and wastes money.

I'm sure there is some favortism in job searches but with state oversight it's hard to hire completely unqualified people. There are as many people with the desire to teach that are absolutely horrible at it as there are people with no desire to teach to are great at it.
Enjoying basketball does not make you LeBron James.

Distance learning is becoming more economic and in some instances effective. For elementary school though it would be detrimental overall. One of the rolls of schools is to help children learn to communicate with other people and form social bonds. If you spend your childhood staring at a screen in your room, you're gonna have a rough time talking to people when you enter the real world. People need interactions. It also again makes life hard for house holds where the parents work all day. How do you ensure your child is actually home, let alone doing their school work?

Memorization helps speed things along but like one of the teachers(I assume) said rote memorization doesn't help you apply the concept to real world situations unless they match exactly. Teaching students the methods to solve problems, giving them real world examples, and encouraging collaboration work better.

@ grathan
I'm confused as to why you think cafateria workers, bus drivers, and janitors are 'big salary' workers who don't deserve a pension if they put in the time. I'm also pretty sure if you asked teachers what they thought they were worth it would be well higher than the 56k national average, or even the 75k NY average. Mind you this is the average for all teachers. Starting average pay is 36k nationally and 43k for NY(pay rate)
We've got assembly line workers who are glorified robots who get paid at least this much and get pensions but few people complain about that. Since it's not an assembly line workers thread I won't assume what your stance on them is.

 

[grathan]

BY kindergarten the social interaction has already missed the bus. The school is just a ban-aid that point.

I feel that is big salary because the per capita income here is half that (and you know the true cost in the long run is the benefits anyways). If they based teacher's salaries on taxpayer's incomes, that would be great. Instead you have schools here just trying to stop the poaching from bigger districts and being forced to pay going rates for qualified school staff.

I would rather see a factory worker earning a pension because they don't leech onto the taxpayer. I should note that my health care is covered by a town even poorer than my own, due to my wife being a teacher, but it's not like you can just turn it down, that would be foolish. And there lies the problem. A huge establishment of tax sucking leeches. Unionized public teachers demanding %5 of my home's value(my biggest asset) annually.

I start to look at it as if it is worth it to educate every single child. When you look at what most people end up doing to contribute to society after they've been educated you have to wonder if intelligence isn't just something some people are born with. They would learn all the stuff they needed even if schools didn't exist. And the non-intelligent ones, you have to wonder if it has made a difference that they can read or write. ( I am specifically speaking of the internet age with video conferencing .. and speaking of robots ).

 

[Transamguy77]

This was teaching 40-50 years ago. Today, cooperative learning is the norm. Most teachers know, lecture is actually the worst way to learn and retain knowledge (think of that when paying your kid's college tuition.) Kids learn by teaching others and discovering on their own. This is how I run my classroom. I often have to remind them "the answer is in your head, not a book." And often respond "you tell me the answer." They hate this at first, but begin to realize how smart they are and that they can teach themselves. I call what you talk about "regurgitation" and its not teaching. Its on its way out if not gone.

I don't teach, I guide. If you hear kids are learning the way you describe, go to a PTO meeting and voice this, write letters to local media. This is not teaching and people should be help accountable.

It sounds like you have a great way of teaching and if the schools around me were like that I'd send my kids there but they are not.

To be completely honest I am comfortable with home schooling and I know it works, my 16 year old is now in college taking prerequisites for engineering.

When my middle son was in school (because he asked to go) I had to go and talk with his teacher because he had a problem with reading comprehension (or so they said) when I asked them what they had him read and when they told me what it was, I explained that he really had no interest in that and can he read something else and I was told "no he has to read it, everyone has to read it, that is what was mandated and there is no other option".

Home schooling may not be an option for everyone but it works for my family.

 

[Leithoa]

I start to look at it as if it is worth it to educate every single child. When you look at what most people end up doing to contribute to society after they've been educated you have to wonder if intelligence isn't just something some people are born with.

There's a difference between intelligence and being smart. Sure good genes goes a long way towards scoring perfect on the SAT but so does sitting down with the books. Even if 90% of HS grads go on to mop floors or drive truck if we don't have an educated populace with an understanding of how the world works how can we expect them to vote based on an informed decision, not run themselves into debt, or any number of other basic necessities of modern living?

I'm no sociologist/child psychologist but social interactions are important way beyond the preschool and kindergarten years. Sure you can get this from youth sports, boy scouts, youth groups and other places but many of these cost money that some families can't afford. So again pushing kids in front of a monitor with limited social interactions will hinder more than help.

Truly sorry you don't see the benefit to public education.

@Transamguy77
It sounds more like your son has trouble following instructions that are based on the 'because I said so and I am the authority figure' justification. Not to say this is a bad thing but every test(SAT, proficiency, GRE) he will ever take will have some banal passage he has to read in order to establish his reading comprehension.

 

[Yourrealdad]

Man, where to begin with this. So many points brought up I don't where to start. Full disclosure I am a 7th grade public education teacher so of course I am to be biased, however I am also what I think to be an intelligent social studies teacher who understands the bigger picture.

I also happen to be about ready to wrap up a dual Masters degree in Special Education and Culturally and Linguistically Diverse Education, and to procrastinate on writing a paper I should be writing I will write on here instead.

Some posts have discussed the effects of culture on learning and parent/community involvement. It definitely will impact a child's learning, however it goes deeper than just the culture. There are barriers to collaboration and involvement that go beyond a person's culture. You have to look at their social capital, how they perceive the school system based on their own personal experiences with the school system, how they have been treated by teachers and the school as adults and parents, time barriers such as work commutes and second jobs. That being said if their original culture and upbringing sees schooling as the job of the teacher, then you have to make great efforts to meet with them and collaborate on how to do what is best for their child and it won't always be how to get a higher test score or what the teacher thinks is best. Are there families that just don't care about their children's education, yes there are, but they were around since the start of the school system. People have priorities and they aren't always what you want.

Memorization shouldn't really be what is happening in school these days. Yes, vocabulary or formulas need to be memorized and basic level info needs to be stored so that you can understand the deeper level concepts, but most schools have moved away from rote memorization, especially by late elementary and middle school. The focus with standards and common core is concepts and understanding how and why things are, not just accepting the fact and using it. I would be surprised if a school still focused on this. If you don't believe me, get a visitors badge and go in for a day and observe. You are paying for it, see where you money goes.

Will money solve everything? No, and I don't think there many, if any, situations where money would solve the problem. Would it help? Yes. Poor urban schools are at a complete disadvantage in the technology and quality of teacher they can get. If you can make the schools equitable then you can increase the likelihood that the students will succeed.

It has also been shown that the number one factor to a child's academic success is not their genes, or their family's involvement, or how nice the school is, it is the quality of the teacher. Just because you have a good heart and want to help children doesn't make you a great teacher. If you want great teachers to stick around you had better make sure that you show that you appreciate them. And yes paying a livable wage helps. Right now in CO, which is absurdly low in public education funding, a teacher can have their own kids qualify for free and reduced lunch. I personally will have a Masters, 7 years of experience at the same job and still make under 40K. (My class sizes are usually 29-35 students, this is the first year I have all classes under 30, and I put in no less than 12 hour days at the actual school building). I am not complaining or bragging because I could be a better teacher and still need to get better, but in the end you can only bend so much.

I also agree that teacher unions are not the solution. They allow bad teachers to stay in business. I cannot think of another job where you don't have to have a performance review that is tied into how much you earn or if you get to keep your job. The teachers that complain about losing tenure are most likely the ones who would be fired.

To those that complain about your taxes being wasted, that is fine. Put your kids in private schools, do not drive on public roads, do not use public land such as parks, national forests, etc. Do not worry about the future generations that will take care of you or solve the problems you created. I pay taxes just like you except the only difference is that I actually have to pay money into my own account. Hmmmm shouldn't I be the one complaining about having to pay my own salary?

Also the continuing use of "all" or "every" or the anecdotal experience to stereotype the circumstances around education should stop. Public education is not an entity that is the same from school to school in the same district let alone state to state.

The problem with education is that there are lots of problems with education and like anything that is not perfect people want to find the singular cure-all for it. People want to blame whatever side they are not on for the problem. Instead of arguing about what causes the problem, people should come together to figure out how the solutions can be accomplished.

Sometimes those problem solving skills come from figuring out how to engineer a robot to fight another robot. Let the robots do the fighting.

Rant over

 

[grathan]

. Even if 90% of HS grads go on to mop floors or drive truck if we don't have an educated populace with an understanding of how the world works how can we expect them to vote based on an informed decision, not run themselves into debt, or any number of other basic necessities of modern living?


Truly sorry you don't see the benefit to public education.
.

You're putting too much value on the voting process. It's a self-serving clique of tax dollar leeches. The only people who vote are the people who have something to gain and they are usually connected to tax dollar leeching in some way, shape, or form. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that people pushing a broom can stop and talk about current events in an understandable manner, but what if that person started their broom-pushing at a much younger age instead? People enter the work force in their mid-twenties have already avoided working through some of their best physically-capable years. How about a reformed society where young people work instead of sitting in a classroom and actually get to retire one day? Instead of a society full of college educated people who contribute absolutely nothing on a world-wide scale, we would have a great increase in GDP and a lot more work-like activity going on.

 

[Leithoa]

People enter the work force in their mid-twenties have already avoided working through some of their best physically-capable years.

There aren't as many physical labor jobs around these days. The US economy is no longer based on manufacturing. Mechanization has replaced hard labor in mines and factories and will only continue. Until the 'self serving tax leeches' decide to change our economy back to a manufacturing base it makes more sense to train people to use computers and sit in an office for 8 hours a day doing mundane tasks.
Does every person need a college education? No nor is that that topic at hand. A strong base from primary and secondary education is needed.
Even machinists need to understand the concepts of trigonometry. Sure most will use a set of tables or purpose built slide rule for calculations but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach the subject. Schooling is to prepare people for university or vo-tech study. It's broad spectrum and has to apply to those going on to med school just as much as those going on to landscaping. Until Huxlean genetic engineering or sorting hat technology comes to market there is no reliable way to predict the job someone will have.
When that happens then maybe you'll get your wish. For now we have to work with the system we have.

 

[grathan]

You could leave it up to people to train themselves or the employers. The idea of paying to prepare everyone to do every single job is a bit insane.

It doesn't have to be a manufacturing comeback. It could start with raking leaves, building roads, entertaining the elderly, farming, construction, neighborhood watch, community painting/gardening/cooking.

Anything but sitting a large building all day, every day, day after day.

 

[Leithoa]

You're never going to convince a free market economy to pay to specially train every single person in the company. It's impossible to make a profit if you have to train all 200 people in your company to use a computer or to do algebra.
There needs to be some base of common education.
We are in a global economy and the march towards total global commerce will proceed until successful off-world colonies are realized. If we remain un- or under- educated we will find ourselves in the position of rural China or Latin America. That is, forced into subsistence living, or migrant labor.
That's not to say that these are horrible ways to live, but they are unimaginably lower than most of us are used to, and completely avoidable. I think you misunderstand my point, yes we are providing people from all walks of life with a basic education but it is far from training people for every job out there.
We are only able to stand of the shoulders of giants if we understand their work. We only identify and encourage those geniuses when we challenge them. Sure public education has proven time and again to fail to challenge above average intelligence but if nothing else it serves as a sieve to find them.
It is, in the long run, in my and your interest to pay for future janitors and fry cook's to struggle through honors history class.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

The skills acquired in creating a battle bot are easily transferred to other projects. What is wrong with having fun while learning?

BINGO! Having fun with the tools required to do a job/solve a problem often inspire. If necessity is the mother of invention, creative fun would be the father.

Regards, GF.

 

[grathan]

You're never going to convince a free market economy to pay to specially train every single person in the company. It's impossible to make a profit if you have to train all 200 people in your company to use a computer or to do algebra.
There needs to be some base of common education.
We are in a global economy and the march towards total global commerce will proceed until successful off-world colonies are realized. If we remain un- or under- educated we will find ourselves in the position of rural China or Latin America. That is, forced into subsistence living, or migrant labor.
That's not to say that these are horrible ways to live, but they are unimaginably lower than most of us are used to, and completely avoidable. I think you misunderstand my point, yes we are providing people from all walks of life with a basic education but it is far from training people for every job out there.
We are only able to stand of the shoulders of giants if we understand their work. We only identify and encourage those geniuses when we challenge them. Sure public education has proven time and again to fail to challenge above average intelligence but if nothing else it serves as a sieve to find them.
It is, in the long run, in my and your interest to pay for future janitors and fry cook's to struggle through honors history class.

You seem to think that kids will not be fairly educated even without formal education. You think kids won't use computers without schools and their Tandy computer training? DO you think they won't be masters of video games ( most likely a highly desirable skill one day )? Sure the slums of Detroit and Brooklyn and the reaches of Louisiana would create some unhireables, but isn't that the case now as well?

What if you took the $10k/yr per kid spent now and bought them a brand new top if the line computer with fiber optic line right to their door? What if you created vast amounts of free educational content? You think the social skills would be worse than they are now?

Honestly, I think we treat kids more like slaves than anything and they are demoralized and unhappy because of it. It's not only the money wasted, but their precious lives as well. This trend will only get worse with pending economic crunch placed on taxpayers by the generations before them. Kids need them to have more say in their paths and less direction from high-paid administrative losers. Other countries outspend the US by at least a 2-1 margin on specialized education while we continue to blow it all on glorified day care centers.

 

[stevehardt]

There is no single "problem" with our educational system. It is a complex problem made up of a combination of problems, many of which have been discussed here. There is no silver bullet. The best solutions occur on an individual, not systemic level. There is no substitute for a motivated student with supportive parents.

 

[Leithoa]

You seem to think that kids will not be fairly educated even without formal education. You think kids won't use computers without schools and their Tandy computer training? DO you think they won't be masters of video games ( most likely a highly desirable skill one day )?

No more fairly than they currently are.
Your community can spend 10k/yr per student, others can probably pay 100k/yr. How can rural Montana hope to compete with silicon valley?
People don't want to pay for the education in their own town, how will you convince them to pay for another town, another state?
Who will supervise the children while they cruise this source of vast, complete, well written, knowledge? If not to ensure they are being productive at least to keep them safe or feed them.Again this favors well to do communities where one parent can afford to not work all day. Maybe some of your volunteers will show up at first, but no one works for free forever. Everyone needs to get paid, even if its not in money.

I'm not saying kids won't use computers without school to hold their hands, but no one uses excel because it's a fun program. And yes, social skills could be worse.

 

[grathan]

I would guess that less than %10 of school funding comes from its own community. The rest is people paying for other communities.



I wouldn't say that nobody learns Excel for fun. I've done just that. Even learned low level C languages in spare time just to see how they work. That is the beauty of educating yourself vs. being forced to learn what other people think you should know.


I don't think a community that worked together would be poor at all. In fact, I think poverty might even disappear.