What's wrong with education today?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

chezhed

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
810
Reaction score
114
Location
Mission
So they have this big deal thing here in the RGV called the HESTEC which is something like Hispanic Engineering Science Technology Educational Contest or something similar.....Part of the engineering challenge is these robot builds. But the robots do nothing but battle each other, which is cool, I admit, but lacks practical application. I approached a teacher and asked "it" if they ever would consider working on a project that would be practical and have a contest for solving the problem.....

"uh, I don't think the kids would find much fun in that."
FUN???? I thought this was about education....solving problems can't be fun? bad teachers I say is the problem:eek:

How in the heck am a I going to get my robotic capper built now? I'm a basic old fart mechanical engineer (or used to be)...I can't do PLCs and robots and crap like that ;)
 
Better to question what is right.
Expectations and accountability for teachers and students alike have been lowered so that nobody has to be singled out as less than another individual. Can't have somebody feeling bad, or stressing over having to study.
Good thing "common core" will completely wipe away all accountability, expectations, and common sense from our school systems.
 
The skills acquired in creating a battle bot are easily transferred to other projects. What is wrong with having fun while learning?

Nothing...not what I meant. I said, can't there be fun in problem solving? The problem is the teacher is too ineffective to teach that....building bots every year requires no work on the teacher's part....here, go build this...same as last year. Repetition is good in many cases...but knowing what the exam will be year after year is not a good teaching tool IMO.

Year after year the physics teacher at one high school assigns projects...same ones over and over....build a rubber band powered car, build a roller coaster...rumor is one local guy will "sell" a student the project complete for $25....and claims everyone gets an A with it. It's been going on for 3 years. My friend's daughter wanted an A to keep her perfect grade going but was not going to spend $25 to buy it. She came to me for help....brought her "car" and said please help make it work....it currently did not. She told me about this whole situation....I was infuriated. So we made a car....and we made it so that it not only ran, but stopped because of the rubber band. She got the only A.....I hope someone went after that seller and demanded their money back:D

Point is, the teachers don't work to teach anymore.....
 
Point is, the teachers don't work to teach anymore.....

My physics teacher had kids create kites they ran through the hallway every year he taught (late 1950s to late 1970s). Some kids learned through trial and error, attempting an innovative design. Others took shortcuts and copied or slightly modified previous designs.

The point is some kids will work hard, some won't. The same generalization applies to teachers and people overall. I don't think the past 40 years have changed human nature that much.

The decay in the level of support for the process of education from the average household is a big problem today. I commend you for helping your child on their project. If education were a bigger priority in more households, teachers wouldn't be scapegoats and the government might stop 'trying to help'.
 
Battle robots are the future.

image.jpg
 
Kid #2 is a high school math teacher. One of the common core math homework problems is (no context given):

JFMA - What comes next?

Now, I'm a serious math geek. Started college as an astrophysics major, switched to electrical engineering, been doing that for 30-some years, mostly doing embedded firmware and software architecture nowadays. I know math. I didn't get it. This would be a fun puzzle for math geeks, but not for high school kids trying to pass what they used to call Algebra (Math I now). It's just frustrating and reinforces the feeling of "Math Is Hard".

As far as the original post goes, my company hosts the local high school robotics competitions where the kids build little autonomous vehicles that have to navigate little model cities we assemble in our multipurpose room. The winners move on to the nationals. It's a big deal, and highly applicable. It's what we do on a commercial basis, but for really big agricultural vehicles. Tractors and combines pretty much drive themselves nowadays, if you weren't aware of that.
 
It is a fallacious argument driven by what could only be a lack of understanding of statistics. When one looks at the education statistics in aggregate, sure, our performance looks poor. When broken down by ethnic group (different cultures value education differently), one sees that the US scores at the top of almost every cultural group once adjusted for that. We are a melting pot. We necessarily won't score as highly as Chinese, although Chinese Americans score better than any Chinese outside of those in Shanghai. That, unfortunately, does not sell papers.

Teachers are an easy target. To me, they are some of the greatest people I ever met, and I thank them for doing their thankless job (see post #1) every chance I get. They helped me get into an Ivy League school, so I could understand statistics.:mug:
 
How in the heck am a I going to get my robotic capper built now? I'm a basic old fart mechanical engineer (or used to be)...I can't do PLCs and robots and crap like that ;)

Simple solution. Ask for a Robotic Capper that can also defeat a fighting Robot.

And try to get a Laser added on. You know... to light your Cigar!
 
The skills acquired in creating a battle bot are easily transferred to other projects. What is wrong with having fun while learning?

Bingo. I'm an electrical engineer, been doing it for 30-some years. I started doing it because I liked making the bells ring and the lights flash. Still do. If it wasn't fun why the heck would anyone put that much sweat into learning how to do it? The pay's OK, but you could make a lot more money with an online MBA for a lot less work.
 
It is a fallacious argument driven by what could only be a lack of understanding of statistics. When one looks at the education statistics in aggregate, sure, our performance looks poor. When broken down by ethnic group (different cultures value education differently), one sees that the US scores at the top of almost every cultural group once adjusted for that. We are a melting pot. We necessarily won't score as highly as Chinese, although Chinese Americans score better than any Chinese outside of those in Shanghai. That, unfortunately, does not sell papers.

Teachers are an easy target. To me, they are some of the greatest people I ever met, and I thank them for doing their thankless job (see post #1) every chance I get. They helped me get into an Ivy League school, so I could understand statistics.:mug:

This.

And the fact that some states suck. Its not my fault they refuses to pay teachers and ends up with crap. My state values education and its teachers. If Massachusetts was a country, we would be in the top ten in the world in terms of education, only losing to specific locals like Singapore and Shanghai and matching the best of the best.

And accountability? Take a look at the National evaluation system. I am expected to upload and explain over 100 artifacts and evidence of my exemplary teaching that touch upon over 33 elements of great teaching. We have to set goals yearly to address our weaknesses, no BS either. We really have to be honest and assess how well we teach and improve it.

And I always see teachers blamed. I cant fire another bad teacher, its up to the administrators. Blame them...not teachers.

Also, the answer is M...as in May
 
Kid #2 is a high school math teacher. One of the common core math homework problems is (no context given):

JFMA - What comes next?

T?

J to F is a jump of 4
F to M is a jump of 7, 3 more than the last jump.
M back to A is a jump of 12, 5 more than the last jump.
So the gap to the next jump (3, 5, x) is 7 (increments of 2).
Direction switches each time, so this one is an addition. 12 + 7 = 19.
A(1) with a jump of 19 is 20, which is T.

It could also be months, but then it wouldn't be a math problem, it'd be an English problem.
 
Blaming teacher pay or school funding is a red herring. Nobody in the world spends more on their schools than the US, yet the results are still terrible.

It's the parents. The parents treat schools like free babysitting services, and they're too busy Keeping Up With The Kardashians (if middle class) or just making ends meet (if lower) to make sure their kids are doing their homework.

Want proof? Look how students from certain cultures that VALUE parent/child collaboration and accountability are doing. Asians are doing just fine, as are Jews. Because their parents actually ask them if they did their homework (and MAKE them do it on those rare occasions when the answer is "no").

But if your culture is one that casually tolerates single moms with 8 kids, or even worse *celebrates* every instance of pregnancy, regardless of the parents' ability to care for that child, then you will inevitably get parents incapable/unwilling to take an active role in their kids' educations.

It's the parents, stupid.
 
It could also be months, but then it wouldn't be a math problem, it'd be an English problem.

Not if you consider the months to be a set of values, just like numbers are. Hence why it is math and not english. The same can be done with value sets like the alphabet or binary code. Which is why it is important as computer coding/programming will need to be understood fundamentally by tomorrow's workforce.

The biggest issue with common core is that the parents don't understand it or what it is trying to accomplish.

Paradoxically, the OP's comment was that we aren't aren't doing any problem solving in school. Common core is nothing but problem solving, many times outside the context of what was once considered a subject (e.g. math has to do with 1, 2, 3 not months of the year).
 
Blaming teacher pay or school funding is a red herring. Nobody in the world spends more on their schools than the US, yet the results are still terrible.

It's the parents. The parents treat schools like free babysitting services, and they're too busy Keeping Up With The Kardashians (if middle class) or just making ends meet (if lower) to make sure their kids are doing their homework.

Want proof? Look how students from certain cultures that VALUE parent/child collaboration and accountability are doing. Asians are doing just fine, as are Jews. Because their parents actually ask them if they did their homework (and MAKE them do it on those rare occasions when the answer is "no").

But if your culture is one that casually tolerates single moms with 8 kids, or even worse *celebrates* every instance of pregnancy, regardless of the parents' ability to care for that child, then you will inevitably get parents incapable/unwilling to take an active role in their kids' educations.

It's the parents, stupid.


Yes and no to both of your points:

Funding is not the end all...but it helps. Mostly in two ways. First, lets say your a teacher with a few years experience and really getting good, in fact you won a national teacher of the year award! Unfortunately, your town doesn't think education is important and cut funding. That leads to you being laid off. First, its the town and its kids that loses out. But think of the teacher. When he goes and applies to a job, he or she will obviously get offers. Which do you take? All things equal, the higher paying. Teachers give a lot but we are still human, we have mortgages and kids. I drive 30 minutes instead of working in my town for nearly 20% more in pay, and work in one of the best school systems in my state. Same idea with states. Why teach in Florida when you can make 50% MORE in Massachusetts. There is a reason Florida is not doing so well in education. They are not pulling in the best teachers from other states. Its not the only reason, but it doesn't help. You are right though that it is not the end all, Alaska pays the highest yet does not do that well in annual reports and testing

One of the most important factors in education is class size and teacher-to-student ratio. As this goes down, learning, achievement gaps, etc go up. That takes spending to higher enough teachers to lower those numbers. The US has been doing a great job of this.

As for stereotyping cultures, this will get us nowhere. I have African-Americans who excel and are class leaders and ones that are at risk. But the same goes for whites and Asians. There may be a cultural undertone to putting a priority on education, but I have some parents that don't even speak English. They usually take their kids word for it. Granted, those kids are usually doing well.

Family support is really what you are talking about and yes, it is crucial. Kids of all walks of life leave my classroom and how much help, focus, organization and time they get at home really makes a difference.

Finally, a lot of people have trouble with the common core. It really doesn't change much, unless you are a bad teacher. Just introduce more reading, writing, research, etc into your classroom. I've made very little changes to my curriculum as students already have several major writing and research assignments as well as daily writing.

And overall, education in America is not as bad as people think. Just certain states drag down the national average, especially on international testing. And the media is a joke with their coverage. They claim their are 20-30 countries that are "better" than us. They don't point out that this is often the difference of 10-20 points on a 1000 scale. Like I said earlier, if my state was a country, we are considered a leader in education. They also count certain Chinese cities as countries for some reason in the data...weird.

PS- Still think the answer is M. Math has substitutions, x can equal 5 or y +3, why can't it equal a month?
 
T?

J to F is a jump of 4
F to M is a jump of 7, 3 more than the last jump.
M back to A is a jump of 12, 5 more than the last jump.
So the gap to the next jump (3, 5, x) is 7 (increments of 2).
Direction switches each time, so this one is an addition. 12 + 7 = 19.
A(1) with a jump of 19 is 20, which is T.

It could also be months, but then it wouldn't be a math problem, it'd be an English problem.

M - it is the months, which makes no sense to me as a math problem. I'm told it has to do with teaching patterns. Nonsense. There's not enough context to make it anything other than pure guesswork and to make students feel stupid when the teacher whips out the trick answer. When I was in high school I was enough of a smartass I would have made up some completely random answer and when the teacher told me I was wrong I would say, "Prove it."
 
Here's what I like about common core math: it teaches kids to visualize problems.

Here's what I hate about common core math: it halfway teaches kids to solve problems four different ways. So instead of becoming experts in one way of problem solving they get confused and try to use all four methods at once.

I volunteered to help teach reading in my daughter's 1st grade class a couple years ago. I couldn't believe the difference in reading level of the kids. Some were on 3rd grade chapter books and others were reading three letter words.

That difference isn't genetic or the teacher. It's preschool and a parent having the time and resources to teach that kid before they started school.

They say by the end of 3rd grade that those differences even out. My kid is in 3rd now and the difference is closing, but the kids who had the advantage of having a parent who taught them before they started school are still ahead of the kids who didn't.

My kid is running about middle of the pack. But she's doing better this year because I made her spend the summer reading and writing me story summaries because that was the one thing she slacked off on and got bad grades in during the school year.

I also tutored math to my old housemate's youngest daughter for 4th and 5th grades while he worked two jobs. He was trying to get back on his feet after a divorce. In 4th that kid was struggling with everything in math. By 6th, she didn't need my help anymore.
 
Teachers are an easy target...granted. And I didn't mean to imply all teachers fall in the category. But to do the same thing over and over, year after year and make it known....well, that seems to be the lazy way out and a teacher that really doesn't care about students learning.

The system is FUBAR at the local level anyway. Teachers only care that students pass competency/equivalency tests...not that they learn. They care about the headcount at 9 AM because funding is based upon the number of students in class.....after that, juniors and seniors come and go as desired.

And I have learned that the one particular school that has captured this robot competition for a few consecutive years has a teacher that does change the course requirements/projects every year and only the best students get to work on the robotics challenge......just supporting my contention.....

The subject of scientific education at the secondary level goes way beyond my simple exasperation....but so does arts/literature... I had been out of touch with education for several years, not having any children/grandchildren with a stake in the process but recent exposure to new friends with involvement has opened my eyes. Shame on me.....thanks for putting up with the rant.
 
What's wrong with education today?

It's been dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator; add parents who aren't invovled because they are either too tired from working full-time in order to barely make ends meet or too lazy to make the effort, plus teachers who are paid more to do less and only concerned about tenure and pension; throw in school administrators who think that more money and less discipline will solve any problem, and you get the results that we see in our modern educational system.
 
My physics teacher had kids create kites they ran through the hallway every year he taught (late 1950s to late 1970s). Some kids learned through trial and error, attempting an innovative design. Others took shortcuts and copied or slightly modified previous designs.

The point is some kids will work hard, some won't. The same generalization applies to teachers and people overall. I don't think the past 40 years have changed human nature that much.

The decay in the level of support for the process of education from the average household is a big problem today. I commend you for helping your child on their project. If education were a bigger priority in more households, teachers wouldn't be scapegoats and the government might stop 'trying to help'.

Could NOT have said it better. Parents getting angry at the school system for not educating "their child" frustrates me to no end. It starts with the parents, PERIOD.
 
JFMA going to M next makes sense. Month initials and all - although in context (that there is none) it doesnt. Usually this woudl have been presented in a context of other pattern problems.

not just things like 2, 4, 6, ? but also picture ones of triangle, square, regular pentagon, ??

It is a bit of a bad problem because it requires you to figure out first that it is a sequence/pattern problem, and then figure out which sequence it is with no outside info. Numbers are pretty easy on that, so are shapes, but if you don't think of a calanadar or months, then the letters are baffling. - although I do like the math approach of Kombat, that is clever. Only how do we know that J is 10? and F is 6?
 
Our local robotics clubs have to design robots to do specific tasks in competition ... and those tasks are difficult and interesting. Recently:
This year’s challenge is called Ultimate Ascent and requires robots to throw Frisbees through several targets to earn points, then climb metal towers at the center of the playing field. High schools will form three-team alliances during the competitions, assigning robots to specific tasks such as tossing, climbing, and retrieving Frisbees on the playing field.
http://frc2590.org/blog/robbinsville-building-tower-climbing-frisbee-tossing-robot/

They demonstrated the auto-loading frisbee tosser at last year's town fair and that thing was pretty sweet. The young kids loved it!
 
JFMA going to M next makes sense. Month initials and all - although in context (that there is none) it doesnt. Usually this woudl have been presented in a context of other pattern problems.

not just things like 2, 4, 6, ? but also picture ones of triangle, square, regular pentagon, ??

It is a bit of a bad problem because it requires you to figure out first that it is a sequence/pattern problem, and then figure out which sequence it is with no outside info. Numbers are pretty easy on that, so are shapes, but if you don't think of a calanadar or months, then the letters are baffling. - although I do like the math approach of Kombat, that is clever. Only how do we know that J is 10? and F is 6?

I could just have logically said that the answer is X because of the order of the height of my friends:

Jane - 5' 2"
Fay - 5' 4"
Mark - 5' 6"
Andy - 5' 8"
Xavier - 5' 10"

With no context given it's not a sequence, it's a guessing game, and that just frustrates and discourages students. There is no logical way to get the "right" answer because it depends purely on the secret thoughts of whoever wrote the problem. If I'd written EFMA would you have guessed M? But you should have known I was thinking in Spanish.
 
I could just have logically said that the answer is X because of the order of the height of my friends:

Jane - 5' 2"
Fay - 5' 4"
Mark - 5' 6"
Andy - 5' 8"
Xavier - 5' 10"

With no context given it's not a sequence, it's a guessing game, and that just frustrates and discourages students. There is no logical way to get the "right" answer because it depends purely on the secret thoughts of whoever wrote the problem. If I'd written EFMA would you have guessed M? But you should have known I was thinking in Spanish.

Agreed, a lack of context makes the problem impossible, as the number of solutions approaches infinity.
 
Only how do we know that J is 10? and F is 6?

A=1
B=2
C=3.......

I liked his answer too, thought it made more sense in a mathematical way.

I don't know the statistics (three types of untruth- lies, damned lies and statistics), but I do know that no matter what district I have known people in, it boils down to one thing. No matter how much money you throw at it, there is usually more difference made when the parental involvement is higher. I commend anyone that at least tries to help their children. If you aren't knowledgeable about what is going on, my experience has been the best teacher is teaching. I have seen kids and adults that were on the edge of learning a concept, try to teach someone else that concept, and more often than not, you can just SEE the light bulb come on. Therefore, have the child try to teach you what they are struggling with, and sometimes through the process of explaining, the concept suddenly comes to them....and maybe you were able to learn a little as well.
It ain't a good day 'til I've learned something new. :ban:
 
By the way, the discussion around that question is entirely what the common core is about...how you think and reason more than memorizing fact. I can't say I like it more than standards and frameworks but it can work within the classroom if applied right.

Though I think it is tough in math.
 
By the way, the discussion around that question is entirely what the common core is about...how you think and reason more than memorizing fact. I can't say I like it more than standards and frameworks but it can work within the classroom if applied right.

Though I think it is tough in math.

My daughter's a high school math teacher so I hear about it every day. By the way, none of the teachers in the math department guessed M.
 
As for stereotyping cultures, this will get us nowhere. I have African-Americans who excel and are class leaders and ones that are at risk. But the same goes for whites and Asians.

With all due respect, I think it's naive and dishonest to refuse to even consider the possibility that there might be a cultural aspect to the issue. The statistics strongly bear it out. The fact is, certain cultures (minorities, even) are excelling while others (also minorities, and whites) are lagging at different rates. It's worth asking "why" that might be, even if it's a little politically uncomfortable.

Yes, I've no doubt that you've seen students who buck this trend, but the plural of anecdote is not data. The fact is that in the aggregate, we can make broad assertions that hold up under the weight of statistics. As I said, in general, children from Asian and Jewish cultures do better academically than children from African American and Hispanic cultures. Why might that be?

Asking the question is not racist. Broaching such a topic is only racist if you believe that the answer is rooted in genetics. As in, there's something physiologically different between those cultures/races that predisposes them to do better/worse academically. Let me be clear: I am absolutely NOT asserting that the differences have anything at all to do with genetics. I am saying that the difference is strictly cultural. I'm saying the difference is how traditional parental roles vary between cultures. Some cultures place a higher priority on academics and parental involvement than others. And that manifests on the report card. We need to acknowledge these differences, embrace the approaches that result in higher student success, and educate the parents to encourage them to adopt mindsets that are demonstrably superior.
 
@kombat

Sorry to get you upset but I just can't bring these views into a classroom prior to teaching. If it happens to fit cultural norms, so be it. Its not that Asian, or Jewish or any one group excels over another. Its the a child is supported at home. The race/ethnicity doesn't matter. They may fit patterns but that is not up to me to worry about. I have too many personal examples of kids of all races both rising to the top or struggling to lump them into groups.

Socioeconomic factors are not uncomfortable to talk about...this is the main culprit and usually linked to support at home. It just so happens that many groups fall into certain ones. Money and time are not cultural...IMO.
 
Somebody tell my how my Irish-Puerto Rican-Japanese daughter is going to do in school.

There has to be a statistic for that.
 
A=1
B=2
C=3.......

I liked his answer too, thought it made more sense in a mathematical way.

QUOTE]

Well I knew that A=1, etc My point was in the absence of reference points, J=1, F=2, M=3, A=4 and therefore any other letter (X, Z) could be 5. Assuming A=1 brings in facts not in evidence (that we are assigning the possition in the Alphabet as the value of the letter). J could have just as easily been 74 (and A 65) ... as it is in ASCII. In which case his solution would still work, unless they letters aren't English but from an other Alphabet, then all bets are off
 
She's already doomed.

Doomed is right, but it's because she is the class clown.

Yesterday, she got in trouble for having been perceived to have been making fun of "midgets" (actual word the teacher used) while pretending to be a gnome.

Context: my daughter is below the 3rd percentile on the height-age chart. She might be the shortest kid in her grade.

I told her to tell the teacher "it's dwarves or little people, not midgets."
 
OP the robotics stuff is more than just building a battle bot. The kids still had to learn power flow, drive train, controls, some structural engineering and wiring. Now add a maximum weight and that can be a good challenge. Not all kids grasp all that easily.

I swear the common core stuff needs to come with a parents guide so we can help our kids at home. My biggest problem is the home work for the math part. I have never bought building materials in fractions (1/6) of a foot for projects.
 
"uh, I don't think the kids would find much fun in that."
FUN???? I thought this was about education....solving problems can't be fun? bad teachers I say is the problem:eek:

How in the heck am a I going to get my robotic capper built now? I'm a basic old fart mechanical engineer (or used to be)...I can't do PLCs and robots and crap like that ;)

These kids aren't electrical engineers, just like you aren't. They built a robot.

You're telling me that you can't even learn enough to build a robotic capper?

Get off your butt and get solving your own problem, dammit! You're not too old to learn a few new tricks! :mug:
 
I need a robotic filler. I can cap bottles myself just fine.

Then a robotic cleaner to finish up the job while I have a beer.
 
These kids aren't electrical engineers, just like you aren't. They built a robot.

You're telling me that you can't even learn enough to build a robotic capper?

Get off your butt and get solving your own problem, dammit! You're not too old to learn a few new tricks! :mug:

I'm too busy learning other things that will aid me in my retirement:D I won't have access to build robots when I live on that beach in the islands mon:fro:
And did I mention it needs to be solar powered:D

I need a robotic filler. I can cap bottles myself just fine.

Filling is easy for me....capping is difficult with my smashed hands/wrists (too many broken fingers and wrist bones when I was young.)
 
I did not read too much of this thread so I don't know where it has gone, to me I don't believe in our education system at all, I home school my kids.

I don't feel our system is designed to "teach" anyone anything, it's all about memorizing what's going to be on the test so that you get a good grade so the school can get more funding. I don't blame teachers for doing their job they are just simply following the rules that are in place. Teachers have a great passion for what they do and enjoy it.

I think student lead learning is the best way to learn (my personal opinion) if you have an interest in what you are learning you will find a way to learn more about it. Kind of like home brewing isn't that why we are all here on this forum to "learn"?

Memorizing books doesn't "teach" you anything but finding something you like and researching it is "learning" about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top