What's wrong with education today?

[Yourrealdad]

I have attached a screen shot of the budget for some of the schools in Colorado. You will notice that the property taxes are above 10%, some around 25% and then you have to factor in specific ownership taxes (vehicle taxes) from each county. It is in Excel which I didn't teach myself cause it is boring and confusing and frustrating and no one made me, so I played Halo instead. No one has ever asked if I was a 5 Star General in an interview so I don't know if that ever helped me secure a job.

Some kiddos will teach themselves, but they have to be taught to teach themselves most of the time if that makes sense. Trust me, I actually do this for a living and I am not talking about kindergartners, I teach 7th graders, who are actually like kindergartners because of the hormones eating holes in their brains.

We don't force them to learn what we want because we want to control them, we teach them a multitude of skills because the brain needs to be challenged in a variety of ways, even if they don't like it. Who in the history of the world has gotten to do only things they like doing their whole life? They would never make it, no way of dealing with adversity and stretching their comfort zone.

Plus who really knows what they want to do in life before high school and college, or even then. Sure, someone will reply with an anecdotal story about how they always wanted to do this and that and they have been doing it for years. I will say for every one of those stories there is many more that don't go that way.

If you make learning fun, if you are honest with students about why they are learning what they are learning, present them with an achievable goal, and most importantly treat them with the respect they deserve as equal human beings then they will most likely work hard for you. Students work for the ones they love.

 

[grathan]

That could be the case in CO. Even if it were %100 it still wouldn't be worth it.

I've been a home owner for 10 years, but in which time the property taxes here have more than doubled. The parking lot at the schools are so crammed with teacher's cars they pile out onto the street. The cars are so nice, they rival the ones on the backside of the hospital. No lie, you can tell when you are following a teacher by the way they drive ( I go by the school on the way home in the morning) and can always tell by the aggressive, arrogant driving habits in a nice car that they will make the turns required to head to the school.

That said, My 3 kids get a phenomenal education for the pittance I spend. But it isn't sustainable. I went through the tax rolls for my entire town this week and Most of the large farms owe back taxes. If I had to choose between affordable farming or education for my kids, I would pick farming every time. Farmers can't unionize the way public school teachers can and demand living wages or go on strike though. Our local firehouse of which I am a member has had the building condemned and we can no longer use it to train in or store trucks in. The school has brand new fleet of buses and bus garage though... When the school votes come up most working people are too busy to vote and rely on others to make good choices, but I'd bet if you counted all the "yes" votes and subtracted all those with a job or related to someone in the school system, those close votes would start looking like landslides towards "no". This will become more apparent as more people retire and have less money and more time to vote.

And what if a budget got shot down? Why is it the first thing that goes is the sports/art/music programs or anything fun for the kids? Why is it never the administration's 6-figure salaries that get cut? Why does each school need it's own administration? I'd bet there are 10 schools nearby that are so similar in function that a single administration could run each of them effectively.

 

[Yourrealdad]

Grathan,
Sounds like education is not the problem in your area, but voters and representation, and driving.

We don't have nice cars unless we married a sugar mama/papa (which most teachers probably need to do).

Farmers actually have once of the strongest influences on our politicians and we subsidize the snot out of them and often times pay them to not grow food.

We just had a new fire station built in the city.

We also had our bond and mill levy denied and so had to go to a 4 day work week. I have also had a pay freeze for 4 out of the 7 years I have worked at the school. I am currently paid like a 3 year teacher.

My principal is great and is one of the biggest reasons I stay at the school. I could leave and work in the city I live in and make about 7-9 grand more (they passed their bonds/levy).

Our two middle schools our so different and so far away that it would never work.

BTW I don't know if you understand all the work administration has to do? No way you could run two schools well with one principal etc. And unless someone has been a principal for many many years the only one in our district making 6 figures is the superintendent. Don't know how that works in NY, but I can't imagine upstate NY is paying people that much.

Just saying.

P.S. people might be driving aggressively cause you are on the East Coast. Come on out to CO where we are a little more laid back.

 

[kombat]

I would guess that less than %10 of school funding comes from its own community. The rest is people paying for other communities.

Huh? I don't understand this - can you clarify? Those "other communities" that are providing 90% of your school funding, do they not have schools of their own? Who's paying for THOSE schools? I must be misunderstanding what you're trying to say here.

I wouldn't say that nobody learns Excel for fun. I've done just that. Even learned low level C languages in spare time just to see how they work.

We're talking about children here, not adults. Granted, when I was 10, I taught myself BASIC on my Dad's Timex Sinclair 1000. But I recognize that I was an anomaly. The other kids were outside playing baseball.

I think you're overestimating kids' initiative to undertake independent learning. I think if you plop most kids in front of a computer for 6 hours a day and leave them alone, they're just going to spend the day playing Angry Birds or surfing Facebook.

That is the beauty of educating yourself vs. being forced to learn what other people think you should know.

The problem is that there are a great many things that are not at all fun or interesting to learn, but are critical to learn anyway. Kids would not learn these things on their own, but it's vital that they learn them anyway.

I did not enjoy algebra when I took it, but it was core curriculum so I had to take it anyway. Now, as an adult, I'm very grateful that it was taught to me.

 

[Gar]

My brother in laws kid has always been an a student well everything changed this year and in one of her classes she started failing when the parents went to the school to find out whats going on the teacher informed them they are trying something new this year where the parents do the teaching and the teachers do the home work with the kids. i'm not kidding. i put my kid in private school in the middle of second grade because of so many things i saw i couldn't belive they were doing. amazing how all my problems went away as soon as i did. i have nothing good to say of public education.

 

[grathan]

Huh? I don't understand this - can you clarify? Those "other communities" that are providing 90% of your school funding, do they not have schools of their own? Who's paying for THOSE schools? I must be misunderstanding what you're trying to say here.

If you think your massive school tax bill covers the entire cost of education you would be sadly mistaken. Call your school and ask them how much it costs to operate their school and where their funding comes from.

We're talking about children here, not adults. Granted, when I was 10, I taught myself BASIC on my Dad's Timex Sinclair 1000. But I recognize that I was an anomaly. The other kids were outside playing baseball.

I think you're overestimating kids' initiative to undertake independent learning. I think if you plop most kids in front of a computer for 6 hours a day and leave them alone, they're just going to spend the day playing Angry Birds or surfing Facebook.


The problem is that there are a great many things that are not at all fun or interesting to learn, but are critical to learn anyway. Kids would not learn these things on their own, but it's vital that they learn them anyway.

I did not enjoy algebra when I took it, but it was core curriculum so I had to take it anyway. Now, as an adult, I'm very grateful that it was taught to me.

So you spent your entire childhood in a building all day to learn algebra. That's lovely and all, but did you ever stop to think that maybe you could have learned algebra in a fraction of the time later in life?

An example of useless stuff. My 9 year last night is being forced to memorize all the names of Iroquois council. She is such a wonderful kid and really enjoys everything, but lately is whining about homework/school. I don't share my pessimistic viewpoints and try my hardest to make school exciting for her. I don't think they are being fair at all forcing so much onto kids. She'll never remember this stuff later in life and it has not the slightest chance of ever being relevant anyways.

I talked to the wife(teacher) about it and she says it is to develop test taking skills (memorizing boring facts) even if the content is useless. I think this is akin to going to the dentist every day to get your teeth drilled, akin to pummeling a kid every day so he might be good at football one day. People are burnt out before they even contribute anything to society. They interview and sound brilliant memorizing key points, but really are useless because they spent their whole life in a classroom memorizing boring facts.

 

[kombat]

If you think your massive school tax bill covers the entire cost of education you would be sadly mistaken.

Right. But the way you worded it makes it sound like you're saying that since my own property tax bill doesn't come close to covering the cost of my community's schools (you claimed 10%), the difference (90%) is coming from the property tax bills of people in OTHER communities.

My question is: Don't those other communities also have their own schools? And if their property tax bills are being siphoned off to cover the 90% of my own school costs that are not covered by my own property tax bills, then who's paying for THEIR schools?

 

[grathan]

We'll sure they pay for their own and others through taxes as you can imagine. There is no community that doesn't pay school property tax, or state tax, or federal tax, or lotto winnings taxes.

The amounts of additional taxes received from other communities largely varies by state, but a common theme is that the poorest districts receive the most money from other communities.

 

[Dopeybrew]

To the people in this thread who wish to put blame on the teachers. I invite you to kiss my ass.

The government is the issue. I, as a high school science(biology) teacher, am unable to teach the class as I see fit. I am unable to show the kids the wonders of biology. I have to stick to boring ass cut and paste lessons to meet the common core requirements. Those requirements, by the way, are the bane of 99.9% of teachers. And please don't get me started on the recent rash of religious groups demanding their theology being taught as science.

You want better schools? Get the hell out of the classroom. Let the teachers teach. Teachers don't make crap for money, we teach because we want to. It is something that we love.

Parents, make sure you take an interest in your kids schooling at home. Make that little chucklehead of yours do their damn homework. Make sure they understand it. If they and you don't, drop a line to the teacher(most will be more than willing to help your child).

Most people here on this forum came from schools where the teachers were allowed to do their damn job with no interference from anyone else. Go figure that now that everyone and their mother now thinks they know best the school system has gone to hell in a hand basket.

Just my opinion as a teacher of 5 years.

 

[grathan]

To the people in this thread who wish to put blame on the teachers. I invite you to kiss my ass.


Just my opinion as a teacher of 5 years.

Hey, way to make tenure. High 5's all around. I'm glad you've placed %100 of the blame on someone else at only 5 years experience. . Though you are paid to teach what they tell you. If you fail, you're a bad teacher and it's not the student's fault at all. Just remember that and good luck.

 

[Dopeybrew]

Hey, way to make tenure. High 5's all around. I'm glad you've placed %100 of the blame on someone else at only 5 years experience. . Though you are paid to teach what they tell you. If you fail, you're a bad teacher and it's not the student's fault at all. Just remember that and good luck.

I work in a state without tenure. (text removed. Please be civil. -Homer)

Tell you what, work a day as a teacher. Have to deal with know nothing politicians trying to blame you for everything, pointless government tests, students who have the latest and greatest tech/clothing but somehow have parents who can't afford basic school supplies, children who have been passed to high school because prior to that the kids CANT be failed who do nothing but disrupt class(when they can be bothered to show up), parents who don't give a damn, religious groups who get up in arms if you dare try to teach evolution(Im a biology teacher, and evolution is sorta big in that science in case you didn't know). Oh and then while putting up with all of that, you still have to plan your classes, grade papers, and of course teach students. In 5 years I(and many other teachers) have yet to put in a week that was under 80 hours.

The simple issue with schools is there are too many damn cooks in the kitchen. I went to school to do this. I have a degree in biology with a minor in education. I would not pretend to tell you how to do your job, maybe you might want to consider letting me do mine.

(More text removed. Reminder to be civil added to thread. -Homer)

 

[Leithoa]

Is it too late to suggest everyone to Relax, don't worry have a homebrew?

 

[grathan]

Predominance is an interesting word choice. I am sure your kids are blessed even if you're an 80 hour zombie (yeah right, 5 years straight, unless your double-duty janitor for the other 8 hour shift).

No one is blaming teachers for their incompetence, there is incompetence everywhere you look. Join the club.

My problem with education is paying for and forcing kids who don't wanna be there. I know that is probably %100 of them when we're talking about public education. If you gave all your kids the choice tomorrow between a day off and a class with you, they would all choose a day off. As a taxpayer I would choose not to pay for this. Unless we just consider you a daycare worker..

 

[Dopeybrew]

Predominance is an interesting word choice. I am sure your kids are blessed even if you're an 80 hour zombie (yeah right, 5 years straight, unless your double-duty janitor for the other 8 hour shift).

No one is blaming teachers for their incompetence, there is incompetence everywhere you look. Join the club.

My problem with education is paying for and forcing kids who don't wanna be there. I know that is probably %100 of them when we're talking about public education. If you gave all your kids the choice tomorrow between a day off and a class with you, they would all choose a day off. As a taxpayer I would choose not to pay for this. Unless we just consider you a daycare worker..

If you have no idea what you're talking about, you really might want to be quite.
And yes I do work 80 hour weeks. Like I said, try teaching sometime. The work doesn't stop when school gets out. It also starts before school begins. Then there's planning (that's usually done at home).

As to you not wanting to pay me for doing a job that is needed, I'm sure that whatever you do is quite worthless, so I'd imagine that your paycheck could go away as well.

(text removed) Since you seem to think that teachers are nothing more than babysitters, you are PART of the issue with the school system. Not the solution.

(text removed)

 

[tommyguner03]

I work in a state without tenure.

Tell you what, work a day as a teacher. Have to deal with know nothing politicians trying to blame you for everything, pointless government tests, students who have the latest and greatest tech/clothing but somehow have parents who can't afford basic school supplies, children who have been passed to high school because prior to that the kids CANT be failed who do nothing but disrupt class(when they can be bothered to show up), parents who don't give a damn, religious groups who get up in arms if you dare try to teach evolution(Im a biology teacher, and evolution is sorta big in that science in case you didn't know). Oh and then while putting up with all of that, you still have to plan your classes, grade papers, and of course teach students. In 5 years I(and many other teachers) have yet to put in a week that was under 80 hours.

The simple issue with schools is there are too many damn cooks in the kitchen. I went to school to do this. I have a degree in biology with a minor in education. I would not pretend to tell you how to do your job, maybe you might want to consider letting me do mine.

i am not a teacher but my wife is. and i all i can is WOW! being a teacher is not easy as to what a lot of people think. you deal with a lot from the kids to the parents to the others that think they know what the hell they are talking about. how about this my wife just may not see her retirement because the crooked politicians here in Illinois are "borrowing" the money to put in good "use". other words right into their pockets.

 

[grathan]

A good solution would be school tax exempt for anyone who home-schools or pays for private school.

 

[CGVT]

It is not that simple.

The value of your home is tied directly to the quality of your public schools, so even if you home school, private school or have no kids in school, the taxes that you pay for school benefit you and your community directly.

 

[grathan]

The dismantlement would have to start somewhere. When you look at the effect tax dollars have had on the price of education you soon realize that it is bound to implode.

No doubt everyone wants the best schools in their own neighborhood, but should locals be forced to pay for it if they have no say at all in the curriculum?


And what about a choice over who goes to school? Way back in 2008 there were more illegals and children of illegals enrolled in public school then there are people in the entire state of Colorado.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/opinion/educating-illegal-immigrants-is-costly/nQjSw/

 

[Dopeybrew]

What makes you think that 99.99 % of parents are remotely qualified to set up a curriculum? How many people do you honestly think know enough to set a curriculum that is balanced and will allow children to succeed?

What about who gets to go to school? What if there is an area that doesn't think that female or black children should be in school? Should those children be excluded from school?

 

[kombat]

In 5 years I(and many other teachers) have yet to put in a week that was under 80 hours.

Except, of course, for those two entire months you get off every summer.

And a week or two around Christmas.

And another week in March.

 

[kombat]

A good solution would be school tax exempt for anyone who home-schools or pays for private school.

What about those of us who have chosen not to have any kids at all? We're also not burdening the public school system - can we have our school taxes back too?

 

[kombat]

And yes I do work 80 hour weeks.

Nobody here believes you. Nobody could keep up such a schedule for 5 years straight. You're being creative with your numbers. You don't get to count the time you spend in the morning shaving, showering, eating, commuting, etc. We all do those things, and they don't count as "work hours."

 

[Leithoa]

Except, of course, for those two entire months you get off every summer.
And a week or two around Christmas.
And another week in March.

Not sure how it works in everyone's school district but in mine spring break in particular is a planning/grading break, while I'm sure time through the holidays is not entirely spent grading/planning part of it is.
As far as summer break goes this is an unpaid break. You can arrange with payroll to have money withheld during the school year so you continue to get a paycheck through the summer but by default it is an unpaid break.
Also you have a couple weeks after the session to get grades input, evaluate, and complete various administrative tasks. Then a few weeks before the next session you have to do get everything ready for the new term.
During the 2 month break if you want tenure you are expected to complete 'continuing' education either through college courses or approved workshops. The costs of which may or may not be reimbursed.

So sure every job has it's down periods but it's far from the mai tai's on the beach many imagine.

should locals be forced to pay for it if they have no say at all in the curriculum?

Again I'm not sure how it works in your state but in mine you(the general voting public) do have a say in the education curriculum. My state has a bill waiting to be voted on that would withdraw our state from Common Core curriculum and make some vague changes to the curriculum. It is within my ability to write my representatives, and voice my opinion. I can get my friends to do the same.
More directly for my district and more likely to succeed, I can go to school board meetings which are open to the public and voice my opinion(founded or not) about the curriculum being taught. If I have the time and inclination I could even run for school board and have a direct vote in the curriculum.

What makes you think that 99.99 % of parents are remotely qualified to set up a curriculum?

What makes you think that only 0.01% are? I'm not saying everyone will know the best way to accomplish the goal of actually teaching it but it doesn't take an aerospace engineer to know that you need an engine, wings and fuselage to make an airplane. My point being that education is a system not only to educate children but the train them to deal with modern society. People of all walks of life will have valid inputs on lessons they wish had been taught to them at an early age. While they may be able to teach these lessons to their children, wouldn't we all benefit if they were taught to every child?


PS there's an edit function so you don't have triple posts.

 

[grathan]

In Massachusetts a mayor complains that the students have graying hair and wrinkles on their face, but the gov't says they aren't allowed to verify illegals age.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/pen...l-aliens-graying-hair-enrolled-public-schools

Do these people have a right to a free education?


Do %90 of illegal California students have a right to free lunch program on top of the 10 billion it already costs to educate them?

 

[Homercidal]

This is a friendly reminder that this forum is not a debate forum. Please keep your differences of opinion, and your statements of fact civil. Be nice to each other or at least civil with each other.

Otherwise the thread will be closed or moved to the debate area.

 

[jhoneycutt]

It is not that simple.

The value of your home is tied directly to the quality of your public schools, so even if you home school, private school or have no kids in school, the taxes that you pay for school benefit you and your community directly.

This isn't true at all. You should see all the multimillion dollar homes where I live and then see the worst school system ive ever experienced. I'll start with the building is tiny and decrepit buft at least had a fresh coat of paint at the beginning of the school year. Then the entire school administration is the absolute laziest ive ever met in my life. After three weeks we yanked our daughter out and enrolled her in a private school. Because of this I do work 80 ever week and havnt had an off day in over three months. And, a friends daughter goes to a very good school out in the middle of nowhere that only has one well off family. Majority of the people live in mobile homes there...

 

[grathan]

This isn't true at all. You should see all the multimillion dollar homes where I live and then see the worst school system ive ever experienced. I'll start with the building is tiny and decrepit buft at least had a fresh coat of paint at the beginning of the school year. Then the entire school administration is the absolute laziest ive ever met in my life. After three weeks we yanked our daughter out and enrolled her in a private school. Because of this I do work 80 ever week and havnt had an off day in over three months.

That sucks, you shoudln't have to pay 2x.

I think if people got a housing tax break for private schooling, it would make private schooling more affordable. There is no question that private schools do a better job of educating.

As more private schools would be built there would be less reliance on the public school system, and as enrollments go down they would close the schools and place less burden on the tax payers without children.

 

[Dopeybrew]

Nobody here believes you. Nobody could keep up such a schedule for 5 years straight. You're being creative with your numbers. You don't get to count the time you spend in the morning shaving, showering, eating, commuting, etc. We all do those things, and they don't count as "work hours."

Creative with my numbers? Hmm let's see:
I get to school at 7 am every day. I leave at 6pm (sometimes later) so there is 11 hours a day
11×5=55 hours.
Then there is the time spent at home grading, planning, and researching.
There is 4 to 5 hours a day (let's go low and say 4)
4×5=20
20+55=75
That's just Monday through Friday. The weekend is good for at least 5 hours reading papers, grading, and trying to adjust my plans for the next week depending on what we covered in class.

In regards to my "vacations". You must mean the time where I have to continue my education, make sure that I'm up on the latest research, make adjustments to my curriculum based on the changes to the requirements, and knock out administration bs. Yea those are nice 20 hour weeks. Yes I do get time off, but nowhere near the amount you think it is.

I'm not complaining, I love my job. I went into this career knowing what I was getting into. I enjoy teaching. But it is by no means an easy job.

 

[smcinco]

There is no question that private schools do a better job of educating.

As more private schools would be built there would be less reliance on the public school system, and as enrollments go down they would close the schools and place less burden on the tax payers without children.

Where do you get your data? If they do indeed do a better job, surely it wouldn't have anything to do with selection bias or also not having to deal with no child left behind BS, correct? Too many cooks in the kitchen generally offering very facile solutions that are eaten up by idiots who didn't take education seriously in the first place. Ironic.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

There is a basic, bedrock issue at play that I simply dont have an answer for. Not all students are created equal, and every student should have an equal opportunity to avail him or herself of a quality education provided. If you are a brilliant student, or if you have multiple learning disorders; if you listen to the instructor or if you think your job is to turn a classroom into a circus- you have a right to an education. Thats good. Very good in fact. However, it means teachers and administrators have to find teaching solutions that benefit every student. One-size-fits-everyone-poorly.

This is different from the Japanese model (which everyone loves to site when speaking of education). If a student doesnt tow the mark by high school... he doesnt go to high school. Instead, he interns in a trade or vocation. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, now you have Japanese high schools full of the very best performing students with the underperformers no longer affecting the statistics.

When I was in high school we had a nucleus of students who wanted to learn, lazy students who could pull a B without reading (like myself) and an unhealthy spattering of rednecks and inner city transplants who wanted to be anywhere but there. One effect of this, was Mrs. Roman's totally worthless British Literature class. A bored, exhausted teacher (she was also a moron but I digress) trying to keep a class full of hooligans in their chairs and not breaking anything. Nothing else whatsoever got done, and the frew of us that wanted to learn had to fend for ourselves.

Thesis: if you find some just way of seperating those who want to learn from those who dont want to learn, the need for Common Core will go away... and so will the arguments that we need to go back to drilling the desks into the floor so they dont move and that all we need is to go back to "sir and ma'am" and all the other nonsense.