whats up with extract+steep recipes and grains that need mashing?

[jigidyjim]

It seems pretty frequently someone will post an extract + steeping recipe, and then someone will respond "those grains need to be mashed, not steeped". I get that certain grains require mashing in order to convert starches to sugars, but it surprises me how people are posting recipes from books, magazines, kits, etc. and then get this response.

Are these recipes from different sources "wrong"? Are you saying that if you mashed instead of steeped you'd get better tasting beer? Are you saying that steeping will leave off flavors or unpredictable results?

Thanks.

 

[android]

well, like you said, if you're steeping grains, they are grains that contribute color and flavor but no fermentable extract. if you're mashing them, they contribute color, flavor, and fermentables. i think maybe there is some confusion with a partial-mash here, where you "steep" or "mash" specialty grains with a fraction of base malt to convert them...

you can produce beers of exceptional quality with extract and steeping grains, but if you want to go a step further, you can partial-mash (adding a certain percentage of fermentable sugars), or obviously control all the fermentable input with all-grain brewing..

hopefully this answered your question, if not, let us know.

 

[jigidyjim]

Thanks. Here's an example. A common Fat Tire clone recipe you can find a zillion times on the internet says to steep these grains:

0.50 lb. Crystal malt (20° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Crystal malt (40° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Carapils malt
0.50 lb. Munich malt
0.50 lb. Biscuit malt
0.50 lb. Chocolate malt

I've seen comments on this recipe that say that Carapils, Munich, and Biscuit all need to be mashed, not steeped, but the recipe just says "steep all grains at 154 for 45 minutes".

So... I'm confused. If they need to be mashed and the instructions are wrong, why would recipes like this be so popular.

 

[jackson_d]

So... I'm confused. If they need to be mashed and the instructions are wrong, why would recipes like this be so popular.

If it is an extract recipe, you steep these grains to add flavor that you cannot get from the extract. The LME or DME will add all the fermentables you need, and steeping these grains will just add flavor and color.

If it is a partial mash recipe, you need to mash a percentage of these grains to get the flavor and color and just a bit of fermentables.

Either way the beer should be tasty. Just depends if you are doing all extract or partial mash recipe

 

[android]

even if the grain needs to be mashed, it can still steeped for flavor and color. and i'm not 100% sure, but i think that recipe sounds like partial mash... maybe not though.

edit: jackson d beat me to it!

 

[HokieBrewer]

I've seen comments on this recipe that say that Carapils, Munich, and Biscuit all need to be mashed, not steeped, but the recipe just says "steep all grains at 154 for 45 minutes".

Edit: Incorrect info

 

[eelpout]

if you held that recipie at 154 for 45 min you pretty much just mashed it any way.
Pretty sure that most, if not all conversion would be done at that length of time.

How much extract goes with that?

 

[Krelja]

Those ingredients do look more like a small PM bill then a steeping grain bill. That being said I agree with the previous posts. For that grain bill as small as it is I would recommend using deathbrewers pm method for this. If you have a small pot whichis all you need for that amount of grain and used your other pot for sparge/boil water. If you had a recipe that called for basically crystal or caramel grains I would just steep them like normal. Hope that helps

 

[Joker]

Steeping grains for a certain amount of time at a set temperature is mashing

This is not entirely true. Only with a base malt to assist in the conversion of the starch to sugar are you mashing. Any grain can be steeped but you need to have base malt in the grist in order to mash.

if you held that recipie at 154 for 45 min you pretty much just mashed it any way.

This is true because there are base malts in this recipe. However, without the base malts there wouldn't be any conversion and all you would get is color and taste not extra sugar.

 

[FlyingHorse]

This is true because there are base malts in this recipe. However, without the base malts there wouldn't be any conversion and all you would get is color and taste not extra sugar.

The only base malt in the recipe is the Munich, and at only 17% of the bill it probably doesn't have the diastatic power to convert the other grains for a fully effective mash.

That said, even steeping that grain bill will give you some sugars; the crystal malts and the chocolate will all add some gravity points without mashing.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Mechanics of Steeping

 

[HokieBrewer]

I stand corrected :cross:

 

[jigidyjim]

Thanks for all your info everyone.

So I think what I'm hearing is that if you take a grain like biscuit, you'll get different results if you steep it or mash it. I'm guessing that whether or not it ferments or not will leave a different flavor profile in the beer.

So I think for someone to say "you can't steep those grains" is wrong - basically you'll end up with a different tasting beer whether you steep or mash, due to whether or not the sugars ferment. So maybe all those recipes that say "steep" intentionally say steep instead of mash because they know what it will taste like. If the recipe said mash, they might actually adjust other parts of the recipe (i.e. lower the extract amount), because they know there will be more fermentable sugars as a result of the mash.

Does that sound about right?

 

[Scooby_Brew]

Thanks. Here's an example. A common Fat Tire clone recipe you can find a zillion times on the internet says to steep these grains:

0.50 lb. Crystal malt (20° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Crystal malt (40° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Carapils malt
0.50 lb. Munich malt
0.50 lb. Biscuit malt
0.50 lb. Chocolate malt

I've seen comments on this recipe that say that Carapils, Munich, and Biscuit all need to be mashed, not steeped, but the recipe just says "steep all grains at 154 for 45 minutes".

So... I'm confused. If they need to be mashed and the instructions are wrong, why would recipes like this be so popular.

Did the recipe say: "steep all grains at 154 for 45 minutes in one gallon of water"?
Because that's exactly what mashing is. So although they call it "steeping", you are in fact "mashing" the grains in a steeping bag.

 

[MasterShake]

this is a very interesting question that has always bugged me. As a noob i get lost between steeping and partial-mashing. I understand now the technical difference (steeping produces flavor and color and mashing produces flavor,color, and fermentables).

but i still don't understand the difference between the 2 executions. Is the only difference the time that you "steep" the grains for? because when I just did an extract recipe I steeped my specialty grains at 150 for 15mins, if i did this for 45 minutes would that be then mashing ? (is this kind of like extracting flavors from hops, the longer the more flavor ?)

 

[carbon111]

Is the only difference the time that you "steep" the grains for? because when I just did an extract recipe I steeped my specialty grains at 150 for 15mins, if i did this for 45 minutes would that be then mashing ? (is this kind of like extracting flavors from hops, the longer the more flavor ?)

Time isn't the only thing, you need some 2-row or 6-row (grains with enough extra diastatic power to convert more than themselves) for it to be a mash...then you need to hold the grist at temp long enough for conversion to take place.

 

[ChshreCat]

this is a very interesting question that has always bugged me. As a noob i get lost between steeping and partial-mashing. I understand now the technical difference (steeping produces flavor and color and mashing produces flavor,color, and fermentables).

but i still don't understand the difference between the 2 executions. Is the only difference the time that you "steep" the grains for? because when I just did an extract recipe I steeped my specialty grains at 150 for 15mins, if i did this for 45 minutes would that be then mashing ? (is this kind of like extracting flavors from hops, the longer the more flavor ?)

Only if you included some 2-row or other malt that has the enzymes required to convert starches to sugars. That's the difference between steeping and mashing: you need those enzymes. That, and many steeping recipes don't necessarily use the temp, water volume or time required for a proper mash since it's not as necessary. Often times a steeping grains recipe will have you steep the grains in your full volume of boiling water, which might be too much water for a mash.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

So why does ProMash list Crystal as a malt with "potential sugar conversion" of 1.034? 2-raw gets 1.036. So what you are saying is if I mash Crystal together with 2-raw I will get the sugars from both, but if I will mash Crystal by itself, I won't get any sugars from it at all?

 

[carbon111]

So why does ProMash list Crystal as a malt with "potential sugar conversion" of 1.034? 2-raw gets 1.036. So what you are saying is if I mash Crystal together with 2-raw I will get the sugars from both, but if I will mash Crystal by itself, I won't get any sugars from it at all?

Because of how it's made, Crystal has basically already been "mashed"...the sugars can be released by just steeping.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

That's interesting. The funny part is that I am supposed to help a friend this weekend with his first brew (probably extract+grains), and it looks like I don't even know how to! LOL

 

[carbon111]

...one thing to note is that the sugars from Crystal malts are carmelized and are less fermentable than those from base grains, so you can get more residual sweetness along with caramel flavors by using a high percentage of Crystal in a recipe.

 

[WenValley]

On the sidelines watching. Thanks for asking this specific question. I "thought" I had a handle on this issue. I too thought that "steeping" and "mashing" were the same.
Subscribed.

 

[LoadedFront]

Outstanding discussion! I have just been wrestling with this, also. So, in terms of the "flavors" that you get from steeping, would they be on par with the partial mash flavors (sans the base grain flavors), or do the flavors of the specialty grains change through the mashing process?

Also, to confuse the situation a bit more, can someone talk about things like Flaked Oatmeal and the differences in its use for steeping vs. PM? What is meant by cereal mash?

 

[Joker]

The very simple version.

Steeping = any grain soaked for X amount of time to get flavor and color but will not get you additional sugar. (unless it is a crystal or caramel malt these will net additional sugars)

*stolen from Wiki*
The terms Crystal malt and Caramel malt are used interchangeably to describe a type of grain that undergoes a special stewing process during malting resulting in a crystalline sugar structure inside the grain's hull. These grains give a sweet, caramel flavor to the finished beer and can almost always be used as steeping grains by extract brewers.

Mashing = soaking of grains that require a base malt to assist the conversion to fermentable sugars, in addition this will also get flavor and color.

Cereal = oats that need an addition step to geletanize (sp) the starch prior to adding the mix to the mash above.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

OK, but according to ProMash, ALL malts will give you sugars: starting from Black Malt, with 1.027 all the way up to wheat malts at 1.040.
My understanding is that this number is how much gravity will 1 lb. of that grain give you per 1 gal of water assuming you get 100% efficiency.

Edit:

Because of how it's made, Crystal has basically already been "mashed"...the sugars can be released by just steeping.

...one thing to note is that the sugars from Crystal malts are carmelized and are less fermentable than those from base grains, so you can get more residual sweetness along with caramel flavors by using a high percentage of Crystal in a recipe.

I think I'm starting getting it. I see a light in the tunnel!

 

[Joker]

Some of the homebrew suppliers indicate on their grain list whether a grain needs to be mashed or not.

 

[robbyg]

I realize this is an old thread, but I was struggling with this problem this morning and it helped, so I thought I'd give it a bump.

I brewed a extract-based pale ale last night, and I 'steeped' 2-row and crystal malt (3 parts 2-row to 1 part crystal). However, my steeping process involved putting the grains in at room-ish temperature, raising the temp to 155F and holding it there for 20 or so minutes, then raising the temperature to 170F before taking them out. My resulting OG reading was quite a bit higher than BeerSmith anticipated. My guess now is I managed to convert a decent amount of sugar from the grains, despite it not being a true mash (less time in the water, and too much water). When I switch the recipe from Extract to Partial Mash in BeerSmith, the estimated OG is much closer.

Before reading this post, I'd always tried to make sure my steeping grains had sufficient diastatic power to convert. Now I think I've been inadvertently raising my OG by steeping with base malts!

I suppose it's good to know I've officially hit the "enough knowledge to be dangerous" level.

 

[cimirie]

Thanks for all your info everyone.

So I think what I'm hearing is that if you take a grain like biscuit, you'll get different results if you steep it or mash it. I'm guessing that whether or not it ferments or not will leave a different flavor profile in the beer.

So I think for someone to say "you can't steep those grains" is wrong - basically you'll end up with a different tasting beer whether you steep or mash, due to whether or not the sugars ferment. So maybe all those recipes that say "steep" intentionally say steep instead of mash because they know what it will taste like. If the recipe said mash, they might actually adjust other parts of the recipe (i.e. lower the extract amount), because they know there will be more fermentable sugars as a result of the mash.

Does that sound about right?

Kind of. Yes to saying that the phrase "you cant steep those malts" is wrong you are correct

However, the flavor profile may be off a touch with mashing vs steeping, but depending on how much specialty malt you used, the biggest difference would come from mouthfeel and body as opposed to flavor. The more alcohol in an otherwise same brew would thin the body. In the FT recipe as an example, it might well make a noticeable body difference (if crystal malts needed base malt to mash) because the grain portion of the recipe is relatively high(I'll assume the rest of the recipe was something like 2 cans of LME or DME equiv).

 

[NorCalAngler]

My resulting OG reading was quite a bit higher than BeerSmith anticipated. My guess now is I managed to convert a decent amount of sugar from the grains, despite it not being a true mash (less time in the water, and too much water). When I switch the recipe from Extract to Partial Mash in BeerSmith, the estimated OG is much closer.

BeerSmith assumes there isn't any conversion from the 2-row with an extract recipe so that's why your OG didn't match up. When you switched it to partial mash BeerSmith then calculated the extra fermentables provided by mashing the 2-row.

Now to confuse you even more you need to understand efficiency, which is the measurement of how much sugar you got out of the grain. Unless your process is really dialed in you can expect fairly low efficiency from a stovetop partial mash. I usually assume 60% efficiency in BeerSmith for my stovetop partial mashes.

 

[BillTheSlink]

I am certainly glad someone brought this up. In Jamil's "Brewing Classic Styles" he always gives both an extract and an all grain version. In a lot of his recipes he has you steep grains that Beersmith says you must mash and I was wondering if Jamil was using the term "extract brewing" as a replacement for mini-mash. I mostly do all grain, but sometimes just like to cut the brew day short and do extract. So am I correct Jamil is just steeping those "must mash" grains in his book when he says it's an extract recipe?

 

[Tim27]

I was always under the impression that Carapils was a steepable malt. In fact isn't it just a kind of crystal malt?

 

[nianticcardplayer]

I have read this whole thread I have done nothing other than straight extract recipes with maybe and addition of pureed fruit.....I am looking at getting a couple of recipe kits from Austin Homebrew and as I look at the various recipes I see three flavors; Extract and most come with a specialty grain ; Mini-Mash extract, base grain, and specialty grain......All grain Base grain; Specialty grain.........

I just want to make sure I am reading and understanding this right.....because I thought of trying the Mini-mash in one of hte recipes...(I have read the thread on stovetop mashing as well)....

If I get extract with specialty.....I will be steeping specialty grain for flavor color and body not necessarily adding to the fermentables....

Mini-Mash, will not "steep" but run through a more involved process, followed by the rest....

and All Grain...I am not worried here because I feel just comfortable enough to think about mini-mash and not even close to being ready for all grain....

Thanks for the help in advance.....

 

[NCBeernut]

All grains will add some degree of fermentable sugars if utilized properly, just to varying degrees:

Steepable grains just need to be steeped to add fermentable sugars. These are grains that do not contain starch.

Grains that must be mashed will add fermentable sugars after the starch is converted during the mash.

Steepable grains include anything that begins with cara-, crystal malts, special B, chocolate malt, roasted barley, black malt/black patent.

Grains and adjuncts that should be mashed include..well everything else: biscuit malt, aromatic malt, amber malt, smoked malts, brown malt, special roast, rye, wheat, oats, flaked barley, honey malt, melanoidin malt, rice, corn, victory malt, pumpkin and base malts (pilsner, munich, vienna, domestic 2-row and 6-row, maris otter, etc), etc.....do you see why many people move to all-grain now?

Steeping a grain that should be mashed will add starch to your beer that yeast can't metabolize, but many bacteria can - this is a bad thing. The starch will also haze your beer and make it start tasting stale after a much shorter period of time. Again, since yeast can't metabolize starches, you are adding unfermentables to your beer rather than fermentable sugars that you would get from the steepable grains.

 

[trojandux]

So here are some of my questions:

1. How much water to add during a partial mash I have neen doing about 2 quarts per pound of grain but I am also including the Specialty grains in this. Is this correct?

2. One thing that people here have forgotten to mention is the sparging step when mashing, vs. steeping you dont have to sparge because there is no need to denature enzymes. Right?

3. and a little off topic but what about all the water loss durring boiling. When partial mashing is there a average amount of water you want to boil with, that accounts for the water loss durring boiling? Then when you add cool water at the end doesnt this water it down I am still conffused about that.

4. If doing a mash should you skip the grain bag and just let all the loose grain sit in the pot. I have been adding like 3-4 lbs of grain in a bag and my mash efficiency is like in the 40 percentile. Will my efficiency get better if I don't use a bag?

5. Does it matter if when doing a partial mash you mix the specialty grain with the base malt and hold it at 152 for 60 min and then sparge it?

Thanks.

 

[major]

your all missing it.
Its not all about conversion.
unconverted sugars(and proteins) add to a brew or everything would be light bodied, dry- crap. That's the whole game in controling a mash.
Steep the grains and don't worry about conversion until next time- when you want to tweek someone elses recipe.
Pros-am I right here?

 

[Yooper]

Pros-am I right here?

No.

 

[jonmohno]

trojandux
1)-2 quarts is fine but maybe a little less,specialty grains yes,this is part of mini(partial)-mashing.Sparge with at least 170 deg equal amount of water.

2)You can still sparge with specialty grains but not really that necessary and is wise to with partial mash.You want to get all the sugars you can.

3)Yes depending how much you mash you are getting volume loss,i know my levels but you may want a brew software to figure how close or what your voulume loss will be. I do 2 gallon boils usually getting close to 1/2 gallon loss in 60 min.I know how far to fill my pot up though.
The water you top off with will not water it down but you will reach your desired voulume you need, as long as you used enough extract or grains it should be fine. Just be carefull taking a hydrometer reading after top off it some times doesnt mix well right away and could give inacurrate readings.

4) Three to four pounds is what i use( in thirding 5 gallon batches)and as long as you sparge with an equall amount of water as the mash and have some good spring water or at least some minerals in your water and have crushed your grains good then you should be ok.
But you may want to look into a brewpot with a valve/screen if you want to go bagless.Dont forget to stirr your grains around and have a consistant temp also.
I happend to notice on my last double batch i did i got wayy better effiecency doing a sparge in a pot of 170 deg water vs. sparging just by rinsing the grain bag out with a ladel.I even put that one in a steamer pot to rinse further and pressed down on the grains squeezing out the rest.I would have an equal amount of sparge water heated and ready after the mash and stir it around and let it sit 10 min or so then drain good.

5)Thats what you want to do mix all the grain together,its how all grain is done as well- just more grains and water.

6) View the partial mash sticky at the beginning of the Beginners forum(i think its in the beginners forum)
7) Just noticed this was bumped and i answerd questions from 3 months ago that he probably wont even reply to-your welcome anybody this was informative too, otherwise.
8) Really? I wrote all of this for nothing?maybe

 

[SocalNat]

Thanks. Here's an example. A common Fat Tire clone recipe you can find a zillion times on the internet says to steep these grains:

0.50 lb. Crystal malt (20° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Crystal malt (40° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Carapils malt
0.50 lb. Munich malt
0.50 lb. Biscuit malt
0.50 lb. Chocolate malt

I've seen comments on this recipe that say that Carapils, Munich, and Biscuit all need to be mashed, not steeped, but the recipe just says "steep all grains at 154 for 45 minutes".

So... I'm confused. If they need to be mashed and the instructions are wrong, why would recipes like this be so popular.

This is a good question because I am wondering if you mash these grains are they going to produce more sugar and raise the OG. If they are steepd in 160 - 165 deg water for 45 mins, won't that release more fermentable sugar and raise OG and ABV?

 

[Yooper]

This is a good question because I am wondering if you mash these grains are they going to produce more sugar and raise the OG. If they are steepd in 160 - 165 deg water for 45 mins, won't that release more fermentable sugar and raise OG and ABV?

No, because you start to denature the enzymes at over 160 degrees, plus you'd have more "long chained" sugars in the wort, which would be less fermentable.

As a result, you'd have LESS ABV since the FG would probably be higher, and less conversion if you denatured the enzymes!