whats up with extract+steep recipes and grains that need mashing?

[nianticcardplayer]

I have read this whole thread I have done nothing other than straight extract recipes with maybe and addition of pureed fruit.....I am looking at getting a couple of recipe kits from Austin Homebrew and as I look at the various recipes I see three flavors; Extract and most come with a specialty grain ; Mini-Mash extract, base grain, and specialty grain......All grain Base grain; Specialty grain.........

I just want to make sure I am reading and understanding this right.....because I thought of trying the Mini-mash in one of hte recipes...(I have read the thread on stovetop mashing as well)....

If I get extract with specialty.....I will be steeping specialty grain for flavor color and body not necessarily adding to the fermentables....

Mini-Mash, will not "steep" but run through a more involved process, followed by the rest....

and All Grain...I am not worried here because I feel just comfortable enough to think about mini-mash and not even close to being ready for all grain....

Thanks for the help in advance.....

 

[NCBeernut]

All grains will add some degree of fermentable sugars if utilized properly, just to varying degrees:

Steepable grains just need to be steeped to add fermentable sugars. These are grains that do not contain starch.

Grains that must be mashed will add fermentable sugars after the starch is converted during the mash.

Steepable grains include anything that begins with cara-, crystal malts, special B, chocolate malt, roasted barley, black malt/black patent.

Grains and adjuncts that should be mashed include..well everything else: biscuit malt, aromatic malt, amber malt, smoked malts, brown malt, special roast, rye, wheat, oats, flaked barley, honey malt, melanoidin malt, rice, corn, victory malt, pumpkin and base malts (pilsner, munich, vienna, domestic 2-row and 6-row, maris otter, etc), etc.....do you see why many people move to all-grain now?

Steeping a grain that should be mashed will add starch to your beer that yeast can't metabolize, but many bacteria can - this is a bad thing. The starch will also haze your beer and make it start tasting stale after a much shorter period of time. Again, since yeast can't metabolize starches, you are adding unfermentables to your beer rather than fermentable sugars that you would get from the steepable grains.

 

[trojandux]

So here are some of my questions:

1. How much water to add during a partial mash I have neen doing about 2 quarts per pound of grain but I am also including the Specialty grains in this. Is this correct?

2. One thing that people here have forgotten to mention is the sparging step when mashing, vs. steeping you dont have to sparge because there is no need to denature enzymes. Right?

3. and a little off topic but what about all the water loss durring boiling. When partial mashing is there a average amount of water you want to boil with, that accounts for the water loss durring boiling? Then when you add cool water at the end doesnt this water it down I am still conffused about that.

4. If doing a mash should you skip the grain bag and just let all the loose grain sit in the pot. I have been adding like 3-4 lbs of grain in a bag and my mash efficiency is like in the 40 percentile. Will my efficiency get better if I don't use a bag?

5. Does it matter if when doing a partial mash you mix the specialty grain with the base malt and hold it at 152 for 60 min and then sparge it?

Thanks.

 

[major]

your all missing it.
Its not all about conversion.
unconverted sugars(and proteins) add to a brew or everything would be light bodied, dry- crap. That's the whole game in controling a mash.
Steep the grains and don't worry about conversion until next time- when you want to tweek someone elses recipe.
Pros-am I right here?

 

[Yooper]

Pros-am I right here?

No.

 

[jonmohno]

trojandux
1)-2 quarts is fine but maybe a little less,specialty grains yes,this is part of mini(partial)-mashing.Sparge with at least 170 deg equal amount of water.

2)You can still sparge with specialty grains but not really that necessary and is wise to with partial mash.You want to get all the sugars you can.

3)Yes depending how much you mash you are getting volume loss,i know my levels but you may want a brew software to figure how close or what your voulume loss will be. I do 2 gallon boils usually getting close to 1/2 gallon loss in 60 min.I know how far to fill my pot up though.
The water you top off with will not water it down but you will reach your desired voulume you need, as long as you used enough extract or grains it should be fine. Just be carefull taking a hydrometer reading after top off it some times doesnt mix well right away and could give inacurrate readings.

4) Three to four pounds is what i use( in thirding 5 gallon batches)and as long as you sparge with an equall amount of water as the mash and have some good spring water or at least some minerals in your water and have crushed your grains good then you should be ok.
But you may want to look into a brewpot with a valve/screen if you want to go bagless.Dont forget to stirr your grains around and have a consistant temp also.
I happend to notice on my last double batch i did i got wayy better effiecency doing a sparge in a pot of 170 deg water vs. sparging just by rinsing the grain bag out with a ladel.I even put that one in a steamer pot to rinse further and pressed down on the grains squeezing out the rest.I would have an equal amount of sparge water heated and ready after the mash and stir it around and let it sit 10 min or so then drain good.

5)Thats what you want to do mix all the grain together,its how all grain is done as well- just more grains and water.

6) View the partial mash sticky at the beginning of the Beginners forum(i think its in the beginners forum)
7) Just noticed this was bumped and i answerd questions from 3 months ago that he probably wont even reply to-your welcome anybody this was informative too, otherwise.
8) Really? I wrote all of this for nothing?maybe

 

[SocalNat]

Thanks. Here's an example. A common Fat Tire clone recipe you can find a zillion times on the internet says to steep these grains:

0.50 lb. Crystal malt (20° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Crystal malt (40° Lovibond)
0.50 lb. Carapils malt
0.50 lb. Munich malt
0.50 lb. Biscuit malt
0.50 lb. Chocolate malt

I've seen comments on this recipe that say that Carapils, Munich, and Biscuit all need to be mashed, not steeped, but the recipe just says "steep all grains at 154 for 45 minutes".

So... I'm confused. If they need to be mashed and the instructions are wrong, why would recipes like this be so popular.

This is a good question because I am wondering if you mash these grains are they going to produce more sugar and raise the OG. If they are steepd in 160 - 165 deg water for 45 mins, won't that release more fermentable sugar and raise OG and ABV?

 

[Yooper]

This is a good question because I am wondering if you mash these grains are they going to produce more sugar and raise the OG. If they are steepd in 160 - 165 deg water for 45 mins, won't that release more fermentable sugar and raise OG and ABV?

No, because you start to denature the enzymes at over 160 degrees, plus you'd have more "long chained" sugars in the wort, which would be less fermentable.

As a result, you'd have LESS ABV since the FG would probably be higher, and less conversion if you denatured the enzymes!