What's mash-out in BIAB and what is it for? Do we need it at all?

[Elysium]

I have been BIAB brewing for a few months and have seen many different terms that describe methods (sometimes related, sometimes not related to what I have been doing) and there is this sparging....which is the rinsing of the grains after the mash and seem to be a practice done by those who use coolers s mashtuns. Since I am a BIAB brewer, sparging is not for me. I do everything in the pot and the only type of sparging I do is a "dunk sparge".....dunking my mashbag in 2 gallons of water (9.24 gallons is the amount of my total water....so my dunk sparge is not much of a sparge...but whatever...it seems to work just fine).

Now.....the mash-out......what is it really for? Is it for us to raise the temperature to 167-185F and leave the grains there for better sugar extraction and also to denature the enzymes in the wort?

I am wondering if these 2 ideas are behind the mashout in BIAB or I am totally wrong?

 

[Catawampus]

The mash out in general serves two purposes: 1) to denature the enzymes and "set" the profile of the beer, and 2) to heat up the sugars such that they rinse off easier (which is all a sparge is). For non-BIAB/sparging folks, the mash out may be more important, because they are working with thicker mashes. In BIAB, the mash is usually thinner (for folks not doing a sparge). And, 185 F is probably a little high for a mashout--you have really watch about extracting bad stuff from the grain husks.

I don't mash out and don't sparge at all. I can tell very little difference in efficiency. In BIAB, hitting numbers is mostly about maintaining mash temps and procedures, and your crush.

 

[ODI3]

In biab, dont bother. Since there is no delay between mashing and boiling there is no reason to put effort into denaturing the enzymes, it happens when you boil. Since biab has such high grain to water ratio, we tend to have very good efficency. (I get 80% mash eff most of the time)

 

[wilserbrewer]

A mash-out is not needed for BIAB IMHO. Some people claim higher efficiency when doing a mash-out, but science doesn't support this, again IMHO. Do what you like, or try it both ways and report back.

The original Aussie method included a mash-out, perhaps that has carried over to the notion that it is essential, IDK.

Additionally, instead of doing your dunk sparge, you can also try just setting your bag over the kettle and pouring the small amount of sparge water slowly over the grain (whatever is needed to reach pre-boil volume), I find this easier than dunking in another vessel.

 

[Ixtlanas]

I've never done a mine-sparge, milling my grains fine give me a stable 90% of mash efficiency, but I'd like to a have a little more of final volume in fermenter, cause my evaporation is somehow 'Chernobylish'. In your opinion, is it worth to sparge with 1 or 2 Liters of water into the bag or it's better to proceed directly with a couple of Liters into the kettle? Relatively to sugars gain, I mean.

 

[RM-MN]

I've never done a mine-sparge, milling my grains fine give me a stable 90% of mash efficiency, but I'd like to a have a little more of final volume in fermenter, cause my evaporation is somehow 'Chernobylish'. In your opinion, is it worth to sparge with 1 or 2 Liters of water into the bag or it's better to proceed directly with a couple of Liters into the kettle? Relatively to sugars gain, I mean.

No matter how hard you squeeze the bag of grains you always leave a little sugar behind. Why not sparge with a little water and rinse out that extra sugar? There is little point in just throwing it out with the grains, why not let the yeast turn it into alcohol?

 

[Robar]

I've never done a mine-sparge, milling my grains fine give me a stable 90% of mash efficiency

I'd like to jump in and ask a question, sorry to the OP in advance.

As I'm seriously thinking of going eBIAB I'm obviously interested when you say you are reaching 90% efficiency with a fine grind. Do you end up with a lot of flour/mud escaping the bag and ending up in the bottom of you kettle?

I am going to build my system based on the upside down keggle and drain straight out the bottom (which is originally the top of the keg as its flipped upside down) and don't want a gallon of sludge in the primary. I'm interested in efficiency, but not at the cost of crap in my beer.

Any thoughts, hints or advise from anyone would be appreciated.

 

[Ixtlanas]

Absolutely no flour outside the bag, or better to say the amount is the usual amount you have in a BIAB. First BIABs I did I got a stable 78% mash eff with a normal grinding. Then I tried to double grind and it was again 78%. In the last three BIABs I did a fine grind (I cannot tell you numbers 'cause I use a Corona mill) and everytime the efficiency @ preboil was 90%
I always keep the pH around 5.4-5.5

@RM-MN: yep you're right, there's no point to gain a couple of minutes

 

[Robar]

Thanks Ixtlanas. I may try the fine grind once I get the setup done and have a few brews under my belt with it.

 

[mizzourah2006]

If you guys don't mash out what is your quart to pounds of grain ratio? Is it higher or do you just fill to 6.5 gallons after the mash?

 

[Catawampus]

I just add the total water volume to reach the target mash temperature. I sometimes to steps as well. But, the total volume is in the mash by the end. For my last single step 10L batch, I had 13.68 l/kg, or 6.56 qt/lb.

 

[wilserbrewer]

If you guys don't mash out what is your quart to pounds of grain ratio? Is it higher or do you just fill to 6.5 gallons after the mash?

Quarts to pounds mash ratio isn't all that applicable to BIAB. Rather most like to think in total water needed.

Example...

Total water = finished batch + boil off + grain absorption + losses to trub

You can either start with total water in the kettle for full volume, or some of the water and sparge the rest.

 

[RyeGuy]

I get around 90% mash efficiency with my corona mill to. My qt/lb ratio is around 2.3 for about a 1.060 beer

 

[Elysium]

If you guys don't mash out what is your quart to pounds of grain ratio? Is it higher or do you just fill to 6.5 gallons after the mash?

My ratio depends on what I am brewing...obviously, but it is somewhere between 2.92-3.49 qts/lb. Meaning I normally brew beers between 1.052-1.056. By the way....this accounts for all the water I use (BIAB brewing)in the mash..which is 7.9 gallons.

By the way...I am no expert, so my brewing process might not be perfect but so far it worked out well.

I also agree with Wil that ratio in BIAB is not that important as long as you get your OG right.
Ratio is more for those who brew using coolers and are limited on space. My 13 gallon pot can handle 5-6 gallons batches easily.

 

[Elysium]

I get around 90% mash efficiency with my corona mill to. My qt/lb ratio is around 2.3 for about a 1.060 beer

Impressive. I didnt know that was possible...I thought 85% was more or less the upper limit for extraction.

 

[mizzourah2006]

Quarts to pounds mash ratio isn't all that applicable to BIAB. Rather most like to think in total water needed.

Example...

Total water = finished batch + boil off + grain absorption + losses to trub

You can either start with total water in the kettle for full volume, or some of the water and sparge the rest.

That makes sense. Thanks for the help. I guess I will probably have to go the sparge for some of it, because I don't think I can fit 7 gallons and 10 lbs in an 8 gallon kettle.

I'll probably try something like 5.5 gallons and then sparge in another 2 gallons at the end.

 

[tnsen]

robar...not sure what an upside down keggle is...but I biab also ..after my boil, and cool, I drain my whole batch into my ale pail (trub and all) lined with the lowes paint strainer, then I pull the strainer out..this part is a bit of a pain, because the strainer is a bit fine..twist squeeze , repete, the end result is more wort .I work too hard for that beer to just throw away 1/2 gallon. then I throw a handfull (trub) into my primary, I read somewhere a bit o trub is a good thing for the yeast. cheers.....Tom

 

[Robar]

Thanks Tom! good idea.

 

[Elysium]

robar...not sure what an upside down keggle is...but I biab also ..after my boil, and cool, I drain my whole batch into my ale pail (trub and all) lined with the lowes paint strainer, then I pull the strainer out..this part is a bit of a pain, because the strainer is a bit fine..twist squeeze , repete, the end result is more wort .I work too hard for that beer to just throw away 1/2 gallon. then I throw a handfull (trub) into my primary, I read somewhere a bit o trub is a good thing for the yeast. cheers.....Tom

Thanks Tom! good idea.

We bought an extra food grade bucket (anything cheap will do) that we fill up with 5 liters of water and sanitizer...and when siphonig we have it next to the fermentor. I start the flow and my mate is holding the hose and makes sure that the wort flows through a simple kitchen sieve he has in his hand. When the sieve is full of trub, he empties it in the extra bucker (since there is sanitizer in it...it is safe to do so...no contamination occurs). Easy, fast way to siphon, clean the wort and aerate it too.

 

[divrguy]

That makes sense. Thanks for the help. I guess I will probably have to go the sparge for some of it, because I don't think I can fit 7 gallons and 10 lbs in an 8 gallon kettle. I'll probably try something like 5.5 gallons and then sparge in another 2 gallons at the end.

I used an 8 gallon for a while and did just that. Added a little after I pulled the bag or sparged while it was hanging. Then I bought a 10 gallon kettle and started doing bigger beers and then had to do that for a while as well. I finally bit the bullet and bought a 15 gallon aluminum pot from Amazon for a ridiculously low price and I really wish I had purchased it first. Now, I only use 2 kettles. My 5 gallon for small pilot batches and my 15 for everything else. But, like everyone mentions, the mashout is not really necessary IMO and doesn't really gain you much. I also had a hand crank mill forever and got really high efficiency because it basically pulverized the grain...lol but I bought a little better mill and it's set at a typical all grain batch crush and my BIAB's are roughly 77% now. The great thing is how repeatable it is now.

 

[RyeGuy]

Impressive. I didnt know that was possible...I thought 85% was more or less the upper limit for extraction.

Not that I know of. I think that 85% you see is the assumed extraction from Palmer's tables that he considers achievable/good. Obviously more is better. I think the high water to grain mash ratio helps with my efficiency.

 

[jgarretson]

Why obviously is more better when talking efficiency?

The key is to know what your efficiency is and find consistency. It comes down to scaling recipes and grain for your efficiency. You're not going to get a better beer with 90% efficiency than you would with lower efficiency if you adjust your recipe.

 

[Catawampus]

As I see it, efficiency tells you a lot about your process, and not necessarily your beer. A beer at 70% efficiency (or any efficiency really) should be as good as a beer at 90% efficiency. They are the same beer in fact. The person at 90% just has a much more efficient preboil process--from crush through the drain to boil.

This is only my experience, but I actually like my beers a little better at a slightly lower efficiency. I started out at around 83% consistently, but my beers seemed a little 'hard' or 'harsh', I adjusted recipes, process, water, fermentation, etc. But finally, I got down to around 75% and whatever that underlying quality was disappeared. Again, just my experience in saying that I don't think it is necessarily better or worse. I have come to the view that the value of your efficiency doesn't matter as long as it is consistent so that you can achieve the beer you envision when you start.

 

[Ixtlanas]

As I see it, efficiency tells you a lot about your process, and not necessarily your beer.

Exactly. Efficiency is a great diagnostic tool and it must not be assumed as a 'skills indicator'. I'd prefer to get a constant let's say 65% final eff. than an unstable eff. which changes from 70 to 90 each time.
About the diagnostic value: I started all grain method 2 months ago doing calculations on preboil efficiency (in BIAB=mash efficiency) and on final efficiency in fermenter. It helped me right in the first BIAB to identify a process problem: preboil eff = 77%, final eff. = 61% = too much difference => problems in trub, during the transfer into the fermenter.
If I would do classic all grain, I'd also check the sparging efficiency.
P.S. My Eng is a little bit rusty and it's early morning here and I'm still tired from a yesterday Black IPA speed production, adjust phrases construction as required

 

[Ridire]

Is the concern with sparging that you will extract tannins? Is this only a concern if you sparge too warm? What is too warm?

I like to do a sparge because I do not want to mash with enough water to get to my pre-boil volume. This is merely because it further limits the size of the grain bill I can use with BIAB. Am I running a risk if I do a sparge...or even multiple sparges...to get my boil volume after mashing?

 

[1MadScientist]

BIAB lets through more "stuff" to the kettle, some of the particles will be ungelatinised starches. Those starches will gelatinise in the kettle as it heats up and will have no enzymes to convert them, so you risk starch haze in the final product. Very high L:G ratios in BIAB makes it easy to ramp up and stir. A stirred ramp up, about 10 mins extra, to mashout temperatures - both gelatinises the "stubborn" starches and gives the remaining (mostly alpha amylase) enzymes a chance to convert them to sugars (most likely dextrins) So, you get a little extra efficiency, you safegaurd against a potential starch haze issue, and you add back a small amount of body to the beer.

 

[week0019]

BIAB lets through more "stuff" to the kettle, some of the particles will be ungelatinised starches. Those starches will gelatinise in the kettle as it heats up and will have no enzymes to convert them, so you risk starch haze in the final product. Very high L:G ratios in BIAB makes it easy to ramp up and stir. A stirred ramp up, about 15 mins extra, to mashout temperatures - both gelatinises the "stubborn" starches and gives the remaining (mostly alpha amylase) enzymes a chance to convert them to sugars (most likely dextrins) So, you get a little extra efficiency, you safegaurd against a potential starch haze issue, and you add back a small amount of body to the beer.

What is a stirred ramp up? Can you explain for those of us new to this? (Just brewed my 1st BIAB this weekend)

Thanks!

 

[RM-MN]

What is a stirred ramp up? Can you explain for those of us new to this? (Just brewed my 1st BIAB this weekend)

Thanks!

What is meant by that is that without stirring you can't do a "ramp-up" of the temperature without getting some really hot spots and denaturing enzymes without them getting to function. I'm not sure about the ungelatinized starches because for all the grains I looked at, gelatinization temperature was below mash temp. I made a wheat beer that I expected to turn out cloudy because it contained about 65% unmalted wheat which should have left lots of starches but it cleared up very nicely in the bottle.

 

[wilserbrewer]

What is a stirred ramp up? Can you explain for those of us new to this? (Just brewed my 1st BIAB this weekend)

Thanks!

Raising the temperature from mash temp, approx. 150, to mash out temp, 170, and stirring along the way up to distribute the heat amongst the grain, quite simple really, just sounds technical and difficult, like lots of other aspects in brewing

 

[1MadScientist]

What is a stirred ramp up? Can you explain for those of us new to this? (Just brewed my 1st BIAB this weekend)

Thanks!

I will just add to what I said above; Generally, I am speaking of a pure BIAB (full volume mashing) or almost a full volume, somewhere around 2 - 2.33 qt/lb and above. I like to max out my keggle too, like most of us. I end up withholding up to 15% of the water from the mash and add it in as a pre-boil dilution. So at these high L:G ratios, slowly heating and stirring to a mash out temp, does generally give you two more points in efficiency.

So no - a mashout isn't strictly necessary in BIAB, but in general it is a useful addition to the technique, and adds only 10 mins extra to the total time of your brewday for a 5 gallon batch and 20 mins. more for a ten. Its not needed, but it is a good brewing practise.

Off Topic: Extending a mash from 60 mins. to 90 mins. generally gets 2 more points in efficiency too.

 

[week0019]

.

 

[week0019]

Thanks for all the replies. Sounds like I should consider changing my setup a bit. Currently when I'm heating from mash to mash out I suspend my bag just off the bottom of the kettle to avoid burning it. As a result, the grains are held tightly together (until temp is reached and bag is let loose again) and there's not much room to stir. Probably not ideal. This is a stovetop size setup, about 4 lbs of grains and about 3.5 gal of water at time of mash.

Sorry for the disruption to the OP.