do you still need to heat sparge water if you mash out at 170 for 20 mins

[fluketamer]

i am very new to AG and the manual for my aio says to mash out for 20 mins at 168-170 before sparging but it doesnt say you have to heat the sparge water. is it just assumed that the sparge water should be 170 i know theres a whole theory about cold sparging but does mahs out avoid the need to heat sparge water



thanks

 

[day_trippr]

Bringing the mash to 170°F for 20 minutes is the mashout. Sparging is its own thing, and indeed can be done with liquor temp well below 170°F if preferred...

Cheers!

 

[pvpeacock]

Since buying a Grainfather G40, I no longer heat sparge water and have not seen any adverse affects. I just use room temp. sparge water and am getting 82% mash efficiency.

 

[fluketamer]

thanks room temp it is.

 

[huckdavidson]

but does mahs out avoid the need to heat sparge water

The purpose of doing a mash out is to denature the enzymes and lock in the mash profile. It may also increase extract efficiency slightly.

Generally on an AIO you'll be heating to boil while you sparge and the enzymes are being denatured anyway.

Cold water won't change the fluidity of the mash and won't cause the starches in solution to all of sudden gel up or become bound back up in proteins.

Cold water won't lower the temperature of the wort in your kettle enough to cause any issues especially if you're heating at the same time you're sparging.

I use a G40 also and heat all of the water at once, then pump out enough water into a separate pot to use for sparge at the end of the mash. This works well with the YOS technique and allows treating the mash and sparge waters separately.

 

[pvpeacock]

That is a great idea Huck. I guess the only downside is that it takes longer for the combined strike/sparge water to reach strike temperature and you then need an insulated container to try and hold your sparge water temperature during the mash.

What is YOS?

 

[huckdavidson]

That is a great idea Huck. I guess the only downside is that it takes longer for the combined strike/sparge water to reach strike temperature

The G40 heats fast and I tend to run the pump while heating to keep the water temperature even throughout.

The extra time really hasn't been enough for me to notice or been an inconvenience. I'll have to try heating only the mash water and measure the time difference.

and you then need an insulated container to try and hold your sparge water temperature during the mash.

An insulated container is nice but I just use a stainless pot with the lid on, same one I do BIAB in. It really doesn't lose a lot of heat (5-10F) during mash in my brewing area, perhaps in a garage or colder area it would.

What is YOS?

Yeast Oxygen Scavenging - part of the low dissolved oxygen mantra. Add 2g / gallon of (bread) yeast and dextrose to your water, wait 20-30 minutes and have O2 free water. (Keep water @ 90F - 105F for faster O2 removal, 1g / gallon will also work but takes longer than 30 minutes).

I'll generally fill the G40 with RO water, add the yeast and dextrose the night before, set the G40 delay timer and wake up ready to brew.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Cold sparge is new to me. I'd always thought viscosity would be an issue with colder water. This is a myth? Learning new things all the time.

 

[mac_1103]

I BIAB and dunk sparge. I use tepid water because it hurts less to squeeze the bag if it's a little cooler.

 

[doug293cz]

Cold sparge is new to me. I'd always thought viscosity would be an issue with colder water. This is a myth? Learning new things all the time.

Viscosity drop going from 150°F to 170°F is only about 15%. Diluting the wort with sparge water drops the viscosity much more.

If your mash is incompletely gelatinized, then mashing-out, or using a hot sparge, can give you more complete gelatinization, and thus more complete starch to sugar conversion (starch must be gelatinized before it can be hydrolyzed.) If you are at ~100% conversion at the end of your mash, then a mash-out, or hot sparge, does nothing that a cold sparge won't do just as well - unless you are going to do a long fly sparge, and want to maintain more dextrins (unfermentable sugars) in your wort by stopping enzyme action.

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

Viscosity drop going from 150°F to 170°F is only about 15%. Diluting the wort with sparge water drops the viscosity much more.

If your mash is incompletely gelatinized, then mashing-out, or using a hot sparge, can give you more complete gelatinization, and thus more complete starch to sugar conversion (starch must be gelatinized before it can be hydrolyzed.) If you are at ~100% conversion at the end of your mash, then a mash-out, or hot sparge, does nothing that a cold sparge won't do just as well - unless you are going to do a long fly sparge, and want to maintain more dextrins (unfermentable sugars) in your wort by stopping enzyme action.

Brew on

exactly. Enzymatic action is denatured at high temps, or slows to snail crawl at low temps, same result.

Gelatinization is probably not a concern with standard grist.

I often do a cold sparge. A few years ago I made back-to-back identical batches and had a 2 gravity point difference in final fermentor gravity. That could easily have been due to homebrewer measurement errors, so I conclude there is no downside to cold sparge.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Very interesting, thanks guys. I do mashout so was piqued to see the question raised. The only thing I see is a longer time to boil but in the scheme of things, nice to learn the option is there, without any appreciable quality difference.

 

[doug293cz]

Gelatinization is probably not a concern with standard grist.

I beg to differ. There are many threads on HBT asking "why is my efficiency so low?" In cases where sufficient data is available to separate conversion efficiency from lauter efficiency (the two factors that make up mash efficiency) it almost always turns out that the culprit is significantly lower than 100% conversion efficiency. Alpha amylase very quickly turns gelatinized starch into soluble fragments. Once the starch is chopped into soluble pieces, its contribution to SG pretty much stays the same, no matter how much it gets chopped into smaller fragments. Thus low conversion efficiency is almost always due to incomplete gelatinization. This is the basis for the common advice to go to finer crush, or extend mash time, to improve conversion efficiency.

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

I beg to differ. There are many threads on HBT asking "why is my efficiency so low?" In cases where sufficient data is available to separate conversion efficiency from lauter efficiency (the two factors that make up mash efficiency) it almost always turns out that the culprit is significantly lower than 100% conversion efficiency. Alpha amylase very quickly turns gelatinized starch into soluble fragments. Once the starch is chopped into soluble pieces, its contribution to SG pretty much stays the same, no matter how much it gets chopped into smaller fragments. Thus low conversion efficiency is almost always due to incomplete gelatinization. This is the basis for the common advice to go to finer crush, or extend mash time, to improve conversion efficiency.

Brew on

Barley gelatinization happens at mash temps (150F). Not sure what the concern here is. I think we are off-topic.?