What in Hops Gives Either a Smooth or Harsh Bitterness?

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Hello all,

I usually use magnum for bittering, which is well known to give a nice, smooth bitterness. In my last batch, I took my first try on the hop bursting method (adding all hops at 20 minutes or less left in the boil) with only Citra. This Pale Ale came in at about 35 IBUs and I got wonderful aroma, flavor and mouth feel but I also got a harsh bitterness that sticks onto my tongue after taking a sip. To me, this implies that citra should not be used solely to make up all the IBUs in a recipe. The only thing I have read about is co humolone percentage has something to do with a harsh bitterness, but citra is about 20-24% co humolone and Magnum is about 24-28% so this makes no sense to me. Maybe its the hop bursting method that left a harsh bitterness (should have also added some at the beggining of the boil)?

 

[bajaedition]

beta acids

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

sulfate in the water plays a role too.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

beta acids

Citra is 3-4.5% beta acids and Magnum is 5.5-8%. How does beta acids create harsh bitterness?

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

sulfate in the water plays a role too.

The Sulfate content in the beer may be the culprit! This was also my first time doing a pale ale. I have done many IPA's, where a strong bitterness is expected in the style. In this pale ale, the sulfate may have made the bitterness come through too much, especially since I was mainly looking for citra flavor and aroma in this beer with a smooth finish. My sulfate to chloride ratio in this pale ale was 2.9. To get to this in a 5.5 gallon batch, I used 4.6 grams of gypsum. I have also read that using too much gypsum can create a harsh bitterness. How much is too much? The next time I make a pale ale, im making more of a balanced water profile for it.

 

[NSMikeD]

I suspect its the flavor/spice of the aromatic oils that boil away after 45 minutes that affect the perception of "harsh" bitterness, especially hops loaded with citrus/grapefruit flavor.


"To me, this implies that citra should not be used solely to make up all the IBUs in a recipe."

The problem here is that you are attempting to add all the bitterness during a step where there is a comprise between bitterness and flavor. This can result in a great beer, or in your case, a good beer with a harsh bitterness.

Hops have 3 main characteristics, bitterness, flavor and aroma. They initially impart aroma, and then fade as they impart flavor during the boil, which in turn fades while they impart bitterness as the alpha acids are isomerized.

While a single hop is the same ingredient, I think best if you look at them as three different ingredients. Adding bitterness should be done with the 60 minute hops, while taking into consideration the compromise of the flavoring hops will also add some bitterness.

I am currently brewing a citra pale ale using citra as the sole bittering (60 mi) hop with a blend of citra and cascade for flavoring (15 min) flame out and dry hopping. The author of the recipe claims it has no harshness in the bitterness. So this would suggest citrus can indeed be a good bittering hop if done in the traditional 60 minute boil.

Sierra Nevada is known for their use of cascade, but they use Magnum and Perle as their bittering hops leaving the cascade for the finishing additions.

The only way to tell is for you to make a smash pale ale using only citra at the 60 minute mark and see if you still notice the harshness. If not, then you know you can use them as bittering additions. If yes, the stick to magnum and use the citra for flavor/aroma as desired.

 

[DemonsRun]

In this case it may be your your mineral ratios.

I think there is still a lot to learn about how the different Alpha acids combine to create the smooth vs harsh bitternes, but this article from Craft beer academy is a nice introduction. As always with taste and perception your results may vary.

http://craftbeeracademy.com/the-science-behind-hops-part-1-alpha-and-beta-acids/

here is an excerpt
"Humulone
This is the primary alpha acid found in the majority of hops. This is where much of the bitter flavor in “hoppy” beers comes from. The humulone alpha acid is also known for it’s anti-bacterial, anti-cancer, and antioxidant properties.

Humulone is known for a soft bitter flavor that is far from harsh. Citra hops are a great example of a hop that has high alpha levels and high humulone levels. Beers with them are bitter, but not harsh.

Cohumulone
The next alpha acid is cohumulone. The jury is out on whether this alpha acid is good or bad. In the past this alpha acid was considered less desirable due to the harsh bitterness it helps to impart in beer. Hop producers actually list this alpha acid out specifically due to this.

Recently, however, with new varieties of hops coming to market, the harshness of this alpha acid has come into question. With these new varieties that are high in cohumulone, a good, even bitterness has been achieved."

 

[bleme]

I think there might be an issue with your IBU calculator as well. Even though your calculator said you should end up at 35 IBU's, you may have gotten twice that. Calculators have gotten pretty dependable on 60 minute additions but hop bursting just has too many variables to factor in. For instance, someone who can chill from 212F to 100F in 5 minutes is going to get a lot less bitterness from hop bursting than someone who takes 30 minutes to get there.

 

[bajaedition]

Citra is 3-4.5% beta acids and Magnum is 5.5-8%. How does beta acids create harsh bitterness?

beta acids carry a much harsher bitterness

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Maybe you guys can help me dissect the problem. At first I was thinking it may be a mineral issue, but here was my mineral profile: 69 ppm Ca| 11.0 ppm Mg| 33 ppm Na| 130 ppm sulfate | 45 Cl| 67 bicarb. to get the sulfate, 4.6 g of gypsum was used and 3.3 g of epsom salt. My first thought was "too much gypsum" but this does not make sense to me now since I have used Bru'n water's pale ale profile which includes 300 ppm of sulfate where 12 grams of gypsum was added and the beer did not give me harsh bitterness (this was in a 65 IBU IPA). I think it is either two things: I need to tone down the sulfate:chloride ratio on a pale ale to about 2.0 instead of 2.9 for my liking for pale ales and when hop bursting, I will put in a 60 min addition of a nice bittering hop like magnum to take about half the IBUs. Maybe adding citra at a 60 min addition would have smoothed the bitterness instead of just adding all hops at 20 minutes, 5 minutes, and dry hop.

To assure that I am not crazy, I am going to do a side by side comparison of percieved bitterness with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (37 IBUs) and my beer (35 IBUs) tonight to see if it's just me and that around 35 IBUs is supposed to give me this bitterness. Again, I am getting a lingering bitterness after the nice citra flavor. It's almost to where I have to take a minute or so break between sips so I can taste the flavor every time.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Alright guys, I did a side by side comparison with my citra pale and a Sierra Nevada Pale ale and it turns out that I had no clue what 35 IBUs was supposed to taste like. Sierra Nevada's has a way stronger bitterness and is 37 IBUs. Mine was very smooth and only a little bitter kick in the end in comparison (most likely due to hop birsting). This is why I love home brewing: there is always something to learn! My first pale ale allowed me to understand that 35 IBUs still has a bitter kick to it. Maybe if im looking for a beer with a hop forward flavor but a lack of a bitter kick, I should brew a kolsch, pale ale, or session ipa thats around 28 IBUs (if that is appropriate for the styles)

 

[RM-MN]

Alright guys, I did a side by side comparison with my citra pale and a Sierra Nevada Pale ale and it turns out that I had no clue what 35 IBUs was supposed to taste like. Sierra Nevada's has a way stronger bitterness and is 37 IBUs. Mine was very smooth and only a little bitter kick in the end in comparison (most likely due to hop birsting). This is why I love home brewing: there is always something to learn! My first pale ale allowed me to understand that 35 IBUs still has a bitter kick to it. Maybe if im looking for a beer with a hop forward flavor but a lack of a bitter kick, I should brew a kolsch, pale ale, or session ipa thats around 28 IBUs (if that is appropriate for the styles)

Keep drinking what you have, your perception of bitterness is likely to change and you will no longer think of this level of bitterness as out of the ordinary. Look up the term "lupulin shift":rockin:

 

[brewprint]

Personally I've never noticed a harsh or smooth bitterness, just bitterness. If you ask me there is no difference between hops. The difference comes from ibu amounts and the water profile.

A beer using late additions for IBU's will mask more bitterness than a beer brewed with only bittering additions with no late additions.

You're saying that according to an ibu calculator that your 35 ibu late addition beer has more bitterness than a 35 ibu beer that used only bittering? Sounds like the calculator is off and that if IBU's were measured they would be different.