Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[Oldskewl]

Most people in this thread say it is awesome around 1 year. I bottled mine 7+ months ago. I have sampled a bottle every 2 months. Last sample was at 6 months and it definitely had evolved quite a bit from the 4 month sample. Lots of plum and cherry notes are starting to show up in the aroma and flavor. I plan to give a few bottles as gifts for the holidays. I hope that helps.

 

[Kee]

I can hardly wait to crack open another one. Should I wait to let it age more? What's the recommended bottle time?

Opinions will differ about when the beer peaks. Some age it for years. I usually drink one periodically to note the changes and after six months deem it ready, if I have any left. (There are always other batches on the way).

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

Just happened to notice the Northy 12 AG kit at Northern Brewer is the same as this recipe if you’re having issues finding what you need locally.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Most people in this thread say it is awesome around 1 year. I bottled mine 7+ months ago. I have sampled a bottle every 2 months. Last sample was at 6 months and it definitely had evolved quite a bit from the 4 month sample. Lots of plum and cherry notes are starting to show up in the aroma and flavor. I plan to give a few bottles as gifts for the holidays. I hope that helps.

It gets even better at two years (I still have some from when I made it 3 years ago).

 

[Jwin]

Just happened to notice the Northy 12 AG kit at Northern Brewer is the same as this recipe if you’re having issues finding what you need locally.

Just saw that in their catalog yesterday. Was meaning to check. Was curious if they had straight copied a csi recipe or what. Was also shocked to see the picture of the crew. 50-60+ employees! Nuts.

 

[Oldskewl]

It gets even better at two years (I still have some from when I made it 3 years ago).

Hope I can keep some around that long!

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

How has carbonation worked out for those that have made this? I've never pitched more yeast at bottling for beers, but I've also never fermented or let a bottle sit as long as this beer would. Is it necessary? Or do you just add the usual priming sugar at bottling and theres still enough yeast in there to get some carbonation?

Has anyone bottled off a keg?

 

[Oldskewl]

I still had enough yeast at bottling. From my experience 2 months or less and you should have plenty of yeast.

 

[griffi]

How has carbonation worked out for those that have made this? I've never pitched more yeast at bottling for beers, but I've also never fermented or let a bottle sit as long as this beer would. Is it necessary? Or do you just add the usual priming sugar at bottling and theres still enough yeast in there to get some carbonation?

Has anyone bottled off a keg?

I lagered mine for a month at around 35, so I added 2.5g of rehydrated US-05 to the bottling bucket along with the priming sugar. I tried one at six months and the carbonationis fine.

 

[Kee]

How has carbonation worked out for those that have made this? I've never pitched more yeast at bottling for beers, but I've also never fermented or let a bottle sit as long as this beer would. Is it necessary? Or do you just add the usual priming sugar at bottling and theres still enough yeast in there to get some carbonation?

Has anyone bottled off a keg?

If you do an extensive cold crash, I'd recommend pitching more yeast. I'm not set up for that now so I usually don't re-pitch.

 

[Christ71]

Brewed the CSI recipe last year, it got stuck at 1019, was too dark and sweet.

I made some adjustments:
55% pils malt
28% pale ale malt
5.6% CSI D-180 (1 pack)
11.4% dark brown sugar

It went from 1088 down to 1010 in about ten days. The colour is perfect. The taste has it all, but isn't as sharp as the original.
My wife prefers the clone!

 

[ten80]

Brewed the CSI recipe last year, it got stuck at 1019, was too dark and sweet.

Mine stopped at 1.018-ish and was also too sweet, so I bottle conditioned to 7 volumes CO2 in champagne bottles, froze and disgorged the yeast, then topped the bottles off with whiskey and corked and caged them. The result is a clear, sparkling beer with a stronger alcohol presence and sharper bite. The sweetness balances nicely. Of course, "methode champenoise" is a bunch of extra work, but it's worth it!

I believe that I added a pinch of EC-1118 champagne yeast to the bottling bucket, but I can't say for certain.

 

[markag]

I made a 2.5 gallon batch of this in June. It was my 3rd ever brew. I really jumped in with both feet with a temperature controller and shoestring budget water bath temperature control setup utilizing aquarium pumps and aquarium heater.

My water calcs were way off, and when I checked my OG, I was only at 1.066. I boiled longer and added more D-180 and got my OG up to 1.088 and called it good. I left it in secondary for about 3 months at 65 degrees (basement floor temp). I ended up dropping down to 1.009, so I hit the 10.5% ABV mark, but not exactly as intended.

I bottled around labor day, so it's almost 3 months post bottling. I've sampled 3 bottles so far. I'm super happy with how it came out. I had a 3 year old version of the real deal earlier this year. I remember that one being smoother, but the taste is very close. I've got two more bottles of the real Westy 12 fresh from Belgium courtesy of my sister who was able to get it at the army base her husband is posted at in Germany.

My batch turned out pretty darn closer to the st bernardus bottle that I had recently.

I'm gong to do a second batch of my own here again before Christmas. Hopefully I've worked the kinks out of the water calculations this time, and can get something closer to how I intended it to go the first time.

 

[Rhaop]

How much would wlp500 or wy 1214 change the recipe. I don't feel like using 530 anymore, had to dump a batch of this that stalled at 1.040.

Why did you have to dump the batch because it stalled? Did an infection set in?

 

[jtp137]

I had one batch finish at 1.015 and it was way to sweet couldn’t imagine 1.040

 

[ten80]

My batch finished at 1.018 and is definitely on the sweet side, especially since some of my bottle are under-carbonated. I conditioned some of the beer in champagne bottles in the Methode Champenoise at 6-7 volumes CO2 (dosed with whiskey upon disgorging and corking) and the extra alcohol and carbonation did the trick. I think this beer needs to finish at 1.010 down to 1.005 and have relatively high carbonation (about 3 volumes) to really make it terrific.

 

[Rhaop]

I don’t believe the final gravity is the end all be all on perceived sweetness, i had a porter finish at 1.020 with s-05 and it’s dry and roasty, if your beer stalls at 1.040 why not pitch a different yeast?

 

[jtp137]

I agree, but this beer is mashed low and has a lot of candy syrup so if the yeast poops out it’s pretty sweet. I think unfermentable sugars higher mash temp are not sweet

 

[Rhaop]

I agree, but this beer is mashed low and has a lot of candy syrup so if the yeast poops out it’s pretty sweet. I think unfermentable sugars higher mash temp are not sweet

I believe that to be correct as well regarding the unfermentables, which is why if tjosborne’s yeast pooped out why didn’t he try a high gravity yeast to try and finish the beer out

Just curious is all, maybe he encountered an infection or just gave up on the batch?

 

[markag]

Has anyone used addition runnings on the mash to make a low gravity version of this recipe in parallel with the Westy 12 batch? I thought I read somewhere that westvleteran does this to make their lower gravity beer.

I'm brewing a westy 12 clone in a couple of weeks (2.5 gallon batch), and im tossing around the idea of making a 1 gallon batch of a belgian double from additional runnings on the mash.

I could collect the wort, use up some of my extra hops, and if I make a bigger than necessary starter, I could use the same yeast.

 

[j616s]

Think its worth saying that this recipe has worked well for a large number of people including myself. Any problems are likely down to the individual brewer, their kit, any adaptations they may need to make for their kit, and any issues in things such as pitch rate/temp control. The recipe itself is sound and well proven.

 

[j616s]

Has anyone used addition runnings on the mash to make a low gravity version of this recipe in parallel with the Westy 12 batch? I thought I read somewhere that westvleteran does this to make their lower gravity beer.

I'm brewing a westy 12 clone in a couple of weeks (2.5 gallon batch), and im tossing around the idea of making a 1 gallon batch of a belgian double from additional runnings on the mash.

I could collect the wort, use up some of my extra hops, and if I make a bigger than necessary starter, I could use the same yeast.

I've read on the two westy threads of people trying this or suggesting this before. I seem to remember the conclusion being that there simply isn't much sugar left in the grist after the westy. I guess you can always try collecting second runnings and then decide if its worth going ahead then and there?

 

[markag]

I've read on the two westy threads of people trying this or suggesting this before. I seem to remember the conclusion being that there simply isn't much sugar left in the grist after the westy. I guess you can always try collecting second runnings and then decide if its worth going ahead then and there?

My plan was to add some brown sugar to the 2nd batch. That would boost it up, but I also don't want to start with to little. I guess I can see what my pre-boil gravity will be.

 

[Jwin]

My plan was to add some brown sugar to the 2nd batch. That would boost it up, but I also don't want to start with to little. I guess I can see what my pre-boil gravity will be.

Here's how I handle gyle brewing, and I don't it most brew days now.
In beersmith, I build my recipe around no sparge. Once the recipe is set, I add an additional gallon to the batch size. I then adjust my base malt back up to the target OG.
On brew day, I take that extra gallon out of the kettle. You could also take some of the early/middle runnings.
Then, 5+ gallons of sparge plus the gallon of first runnings makeup my second batch.
I read somewhere in regards to old British gyle brewing that they would do something similar to ensure that some complex sugars made it into the second and third batches. Otherwise, the doby of those beer would suffer.
I pump my gallon from the first batch into my hlt after the sparge water is transferred and boil the gyle batch in said hlt. There are plenty of other ways to go about this, but it's where I am on my process at this time.

Also, I brew mostly 7+% beers and 11-12g batches. So, an additional 6g batch off of the runnings is easy.
If you are doing 5-6g on both, I would advise adding a bit more base malt and upping the amount of first batch wort in the second batch.
Cheers.

My plan was to add some brown sugar to the 2nd batch. That would boost it up, but I also don't want to start with to little. I guess I can see what my pre-boil gravity will be.

 

[j616s]

Here's how I handle gyle brewing, and I don't it most brew days now.
In beersmith, I build my recipe around no sparge. Once the recipe is set, I add an additional gallon to the batch size. I then adjust my base malt back up to the target OG.

Won't adjusting just the base malt have an affect on the flavour profile? Particularly with bready European pales

 

[Jwin]

To a degree, but we're talking a 7-8% increase.
You/I could scale it all, but I just don't bother. I don't like messing with grams when it comes to weighing out malt as I use an analog scale.
Edit: but, in a beer like this which is just base malt, makes no difference. Again, I'm essentially making the same wort, just more of it.
In more complex malt bills, I've done other funny stuff that I won't get into but the majority of the beers I brew are 95%+ base malt. If the recipe called for a pound of c45, it would end up being like I used 14.5 g or so. Doubt even the best pallets could tell the difference.

 

[ten80]

My plan was to add some brown sugar to the 2nd batch. That would boost it up, but I also don't want to start with to little. I guess I can see what my pre-boil gravity will be.

My second runnings generally are 1/3 of the gravity of the first runnings. If anything, you'll want to add oats or wheat malt to add back body, rather than sugar which may thin out the beer. I've had many second runnings beers turn out thin, so I now add a couple pounds of finely-ground malted wheat to the batch or dunk a bag of instant flaked oats in the first 20 min of the boil.

 

[cheesebach]

I've had many second runnings beers turn out thin, so I now add a couple pounds of finely-ground malted wheat to the batch or dunk a bag of flaked oats in the first 20 min of the boil.

Wouldn’t you have to mash the oats? Why not just add some malt extract?

 

[Jwin]

Read any literature on the history gyle brewing and you will find blending of the first and second worts. Body is the biggest reason. Blending really is the simplest way to ensure you end with two good beers. Fuller's, for example, blends post boil:
http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-parti-gyle-brewing/
Start reading below the fist picture.

Im not saying that there are not other ways or Band-Aids around it, but it's a much more consistent process.
The only real restriction that I can see equipment wise is mash tun size.
I have a 30g Coleman, and purchased it with the intention of using it for gyle brewing. I would seriously suggest to anyone considering the process to read over historical processes as well as Homebrew threads on it to figure out what works for you and your system. As long as tun size isn't a restriction, there's no reason not to scale your recipe for another 20-50%.
.02
Cheers.

 

[ten80]

Wouldn’t you have to mash the oats? Why not just add some malt extract?

Nope, my aim is to add starch, protein, and unfermentable dextrins to improve the body of the 2nd runnings beer. In the case of this Westy XII clone recipe, the second runnings were VERY thin so dunking the oats in the boil is very effective. I also do this for 2nd running stouts. Malt extract would also work but would impart more of an increase on ABV... and I don't generally brew with extract.

 

[cheesebach]

Nope, my aim is to add starch, protein, and unfermentable dextrins to improve the body of the 2nd runnings beer. In the case of this Westy XII clone recipe, the second runnings were VERY thin so dunking the oats in the boil is very effective. I also do this for 2nd running stouts. Malt extract would also work but would impart more of an increase on ABV... and I don't generally brew with extract.

I’m sure that it adds body, but in my experience, adding starches after the mash makes for a very cloudy wort and finished beer.

 

[aaronm13]

Have all my ingredients for this and started building up my yeast starter over the weekend with a view to brewing this over the Christmas. I'm going by CSI's method as I brewed his Westmalle dubbel recipe and its incredible. It's been in the bottles 4 months now so nearly there, think 6 was his suggestion. My only concern is not pitching enough yeast and the fermentation craps out on me. I've done my calculations so hopefully I build up enough.

Using Wyeast 3787 which had a viability of 60% (60 billion cells) as was produced in October. I guess that's as fresh as I'll get in Ireland. I've made a starter to yield me around 200 billion cells. I'm going to split this in half. Keep a jar with 100 billion cells in case I need it later and for bottling, use the other half to build up.

I'm aiming to finish with around 400 billion cells which I know is an over pitch for 5 gallons but I'm trying to over compensate for miscalculation with the yeast. Am I safer to under or over pitch the yeast? I have temperatures sorted with a fermentation fridge so the yeast is my only concern. I have a 2 year old bottle of the real thing for comparison and will be going to the Bruges beer festival in February where Saint Sixtus will be in attendance so I can bring more bottles home purely for research.

 

[ten80]

Am I safer to under or over pitch the yeast?

Definitely go with an overpitch if possible and start cool-ish, ramping up the temperature to keep the yeast active as the the fermentation slows.

 

[aaronm13]

Thanks for that. That' what I was thinking as I'm sure my yeast count will be a bit off so slightly overpitching should be a bit of an insurance policy. Looking forward to this brew day.

 

[markag]

Going back to the partigyle planning... I bought my grain today.

For better or worse, this was my method in working out how much grain to get.

In beersmith, I figured out how much grain I would need for a 2.5G batch (that's the size I'm limited to currently) of the 2nd beer I am aiming for (which has 10oz of dark brown sugar in the recipe), and I added that to the grain bill of the Westy 12 clone (same malts).

This ended up giving me 56-57% more grain in my grain bill then the standard recipe will call for, which should set me up to be OK on the 2nd beer, but might be too much for the first. I've got a plan to compensate though.

My plan for brew day is to do a full volume no sparge mash (if I can fit it all in my mash tun). I will measure my pre-boil gravity coming out of the mash tun, and then I plan on topping off the pre-boil volume to end up with the target pre-boil gravity that beer smith calculated for me from the standard recipe (non-partigyle)

I found these calculators here:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution-and-boiloff-gravity-calculator/

My thought is that I can take my OG out of the mash tun, and figure out from there how much of the pre-boil wort I need to collect, and back calculate how much plain water I need to add to end up with the correct pre boil gravity for my equipment.

Then whatever I have left in the mash tun, plus any sparging necessary to bring up my 2nd batch to the boil volume will get me beer #2.

Thoughts?

 

[Jwin]

Really long way around, but doable.
In the future, you could just set up a profile for no sparge in beersmith.
You can over build your recipe, so instead of 2.5, go for 3 or 3.5g.
Collect wort until you hit your preboil volume and close the valve. Drain and sparge accordingly for the second beer.
You can estimate the second beer volume by adding the volume to your no sparge(add it to sparge volume, and adjust recipe volume) and calculate/estimate the difference.
The important thing is making sure you get the OG of the first beer correct. Having extra wort ensures that you'll have body and a decent amount of sugars for the second beer.
I've always looked at the second beer as not as important as the first.
The big thing for me in doing it this way is I am still locked into my equipment profile, losses, temperature variables etc.
As it stands, you could setup a no sparge profile, build the recipe as needed for beer one and brew it no sparge. Following lauter, you could add your additional grain and do essentially a second mash with new and old grain. It you were going to have a gap in time anyway, no time lost there. You may take a bit of an efficiency hit in doing so, but at your volumes, we aren't talking much cost wise.
I hope this makes sense. It pays to be more calculated and have less surprises.
As your current plan stands, I would encourage you to collect most of your wort before checking gravity for dilution and check the gravity from blended wort in the kettle. The gravity from the first runnings is not consistent and may vary a bit as the tun reaches the second half of the runnings. If you judge by the very first runnings alone, you may undershoot your OG.
*Not trying to criticize here, by any means. There's 100 ways to get to Detroit.*
But, you'll always get more bang for your buck by sending all water involved in your beer through the grainbed. Dilution should really only be used if it is to overcome an equipment restriction or to correct a high gravity issue.</opinion>
Annnooottthhheeerrr option, as it stands, is punch your recipe in now, including all grain, set no sparge, then adjust your water volume until you hit your target OG. Mash, fully drain. Whatever wort is of excess is combined with sparge for the second beer.
Also(last thing, I swear), don't be afraid to oversparge a bit and extend your boil to increase your overall efficiency, especially if you over collect on the first lauter. I wouldn't do so on smaller beers to much though. Sorry if something above doesn't make sense and I probably left something out. I'm pretty exhausted.
Cheers!

 

[shotgunsteve]

OK folks, I'm going to be doing an 11 gallon batch of this BIAB style. I've collected lots of information from throughout this thread and captured it here what do you think:

 

[aaronm13]

Was hoping to brew this up last Saturday but due to getting the flu I've had to postpone brew day until maybe this Saturday at the earliest. While being sick in bed I did a lot of reading and think I've confused myself even more so would love some help clearing up some stuff before I brew.

Firstly, I made my starter last week, will this be still OK to use or will I need to step it up again? I estimate I have between 350-400 billion cells made, give or take. I've the erlenmeyer flask sitting the fridge since it finished as I don't to risk transferring it so will this be OK as is?

Second, Im toying with the idea of doing a decoction now, is this worth the extra effort to the finished product of the beer? I've only been using Beersmith for a short while so when I enter a decoction mash from the profile the FG goes way up (1.023) and ABV drops to 9.5%. I've looked around online and adjusted the Saccharification temperature down to 65°C/149°F and the ABV shot up to 10.5% and FG to 1.016 which I know is still a little high but hopefully with proper temperature control of the yeast I can get it down a few more points.

I've never done a decoction so am a little confused. This is the schedule Beersmith gives me, could you look at it and tell me if it sounds ok

So doing a 5.2 gallon/20 litre batch and I batch sparge

Protein Rest: Add 31.73 litre/8.38 gallon of 52.5C/126.5F for 35 minutes
Saccharification: Decoct 11.01 litre/2.9gallon boil and step for 45 minutes
Mash out: 75.6 C/ 168F 10minutes.

I mash in a Coleman Xtreme so can't mash out so do I just add my batch sparge water of only 3.54 litre/0.935 gallon here?

To me it seems a lot of water to add initially, usually when I just do single infusion this is the volumes I get

Mash in: 19.84L/5.2G at 71.2C/160C for 90 minutes
Empty cooler
Batch sparge: 15.44L/4.07 G

I take it if I decoct I won' eempty the mash tun before I add the small volurof sparge/mash out water?

Thanks in advance for your help. Would love to get these points cleared up before I brew as I would like to do a decoction but not sure I understand it enough try on such an expensive brew.

 

[j616s]

I think your starter should be ok but if it's hanging around a little longer then there's a rule of thumb on Brewer's Friend you can use

Liquid yeast viability drops 21% each month, or 0.7% each day, from the date of manufacture. The assumption is the yeast viability drops in a linear fashion.

Do you mean decoction or do you mean the boil-down mentioned in previous posts on the two Westy threads? A decoction involves boiling down the thick part of the mash including grain and then returning it to the mash. The boil-down people do with this recipe involves just taking a portion of the first runnings and boiling them down into a syrup before adding that back as things come to a boil . So the numbers beersmith will give you when you select decoction likely won't be quite right. The boil-down isn't essential and I haven't done a side by side comparison to say weather its worth it. But I would say it's fun trying out something new. My one tip is keep an baking brush and cup of water handy. As the wort boils down into a syrup, it'll stick to the sides of the pan. You can wash the syrup off of the side of the pan and back into the boiling syrup to prevent the bits on the side scorching by brushing water onto it.

 

[aaronm13]

I think your starter should be ok but if it's hanging around a little longer then there's a rule of thumb on Brewer's Friend you can use


Do you mean decoction or do you mean the boil-down mentioned in previous posts on the two Westy threads? A decoction involves boiling down the thick part of the mash including grain and then returning it to the mash. The boil-down people do with this recipe involves just taking a portion of the first runnings and boiling them down into a syrup before adding that back as things come to a boil . So the numbers beersmith will give you when you select decoction likely won't be quite right. The boil-down isn't essential and I haven't done a side by side comparison to say weather its worth it. But I would say it's fun trying out something new. My one tip is keep an baking brush and cup of water handy. As the wort boils down into a syrup, it'll stick to the sides of the pan. You can wash the syrup off of the side of the pan and back into the boiling syrup to prevent the bits on the side scorching by brushing water onto it.

Thanks for the reply. It's a traditional decoction I was referring too. I'm not going to bother with the syrup boil down as I've 3 pouches of D 180. It's the numbers Beersmith are giving me seem strange, like putting over 90% of my water in for the initial strike. Was thinking, can I reduce these volumes, say to a ⅔ ⅓ ratio and would the water temperature Beersmith gives me still be the same? It's only about my eight all grain so still learning and unfortunately am a slave to the numbers Beersmith gives me.