Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[Jwin]

Anyone have a recommendation for a starter beer for the yeast?
I'm thinking just 2 row, simple hop bill and mid-upper 60s fermentation. I have some saphir I need to use. Would this yeast play well with American fruity hops?
I plan on brewing 11g of W12 so a large cell count is needed.

 

[jtp137]

Anyone have a recommendation for a starter beer for the yeast?
I'm thinking just 2 row, simple hop bill and mid-upper 60s fermentation. I have some saphir I need to use. Would this yeast play well with American fruity hops?
I plan on brewing 11g of W12 so a large cell count is needed.

If you can top crop the yeast that would be ideal, but if you want to nail this clone you have to get the pitch count right. I think if you would rack the W12 clone onto a full yeast cake you wouldn't get the right ester character

 

[Kee]

If you can top crop the yeast that would be ideal, but if you want to nail this clone you have to get the pitch count right. I think if you would rack the W12 clone onto a full yeast cake you wouldn't get the right ester character

I agree that top cropping is the best option if you are set up for that. But I wouldn't be against making a small batch of low gravity beer and using that yeast as long as it isn't a crazy over-pitch.

This is the perfect top-cropping yeast, and you know you are getting the most viable yeast by that method.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for the feedback
Would a 5-6g batch of 1.045 beer produce an over pitch for 11g? Also, I was hoping to harvest some additional yeast. So it wouldn't be an entire cake.
Maybe I missed it somewhere. Is the recommended pitch rate lower than an average high gravity beer(for ester production)?
I thought that I remembered a recommendation to pitch at a higher rate, then reintroduce krausened yeast once past peak fermentation but I could totally have that mixed up.

 

[j616s]

The recommended pitch rate is a *slight* under-pitch to very slightly stress the yeast to get the right profile. But too much under/over can cause the yeast to stall out before its finished. From what I understand from previous posts, pitch rate is extremely important in this beer. Check out the Yeast Pitching Rates help doc on the CSI website. It has a worked example for the Westvleteren 12 clone at the bottom http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf (PDF warning).

The re-pitch of Krausened yeast isn't quite right. There's a recommendation to use krausened yeast for re-pitching when bottling. But this requires having multiple batches going so you can harvest from one to pitch immediately to the other when bottling. I found I couldn't even build up a starter from yeast I stored in the fridge from the same batch for bottling. The schedule is just so long and my storage techniques so primitive that there just wasn't enough viable cells to build a healthy starter. There is also a need to return any cells you loose out of your blow off to the fermentor as soon as you can so you have enough cells to get the beer down to final gravity.

If you want to re-use yeast from another ferment, CSI has stated on here that they normally measure WLP530 as ~4bl cells per packed ml of yeast. See this post https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6847699&postcount=380

 

[Jwin]

Great info
thanks j616s!

Previous post deleted


Edit:
I missed the post linked above from CSI. Thanks again. I think I missed a decimal point in my calculations above. But something else is off. That's what I get for doing napkin math before breakfast. Gonna revisit with a repitching calculator.
It reads:

We flocc the yeast down to a packed sediment in a smaller E.Flask. Westmalle measures very close to 4.0 billion cells per *packed* ml. 60-65 ml of packed Westmalle is enough for a 5 gallon fermentation of 1.090 wort, (some say 4.5 billion/ml). Measuring krausen slurry by volume is not consistent enough for an accurate count, (likely due to the inconsistency of spent carry-over beer with the new cells in the krausen). Outside of using a hemocytometer, measuring packed yeast by ml is a reliable means to get a close count.

 

[jtp137]

When you guys make this clone do you follow CSI fermentation schedule? Do you do the slow ramp and begin to crash 1 point before terminal gravity. I am curious because everything I read on fermentation says to let it finish when it wants to finish this seems like you are crashing to get it to finish at a desired FG

 

[Kee]

When you guys make this clone do you follow CSI fermentation schedule? Do you do the slow ramp and begin to crash 1 point before terminal gravity. I am curious because everything I read on fermentation says to let it finish when it wants to finish this seems like you are crashing to get it to finish at a desired FG

You can let the yeast finish. The only reason CSI can get away with slowly ramping down the temperature just before fg is reached is because this yeast if very dependable, at least that's been my experience. Even that depends on proper pitch and fermentation temps. With proper conditions fg is reached in 6 or 7 days.

 

[jtp137]

You can let the yeast finish. The only reason CSI can get away with slowly ramping down the temperature just before fg is reached is because this yeast if very dependable, at least that's been my experience. Even that depends on proper pitch and fermentation temps. With proper conditions fg is reached in 6 or 7 days.

I am going to try this clone again the last couple times I tried to make it I could not get it down past 1.015. The only think I didnt do is add the servomyces. I have the wyeast nutrient also has zinc I am going to try that. Might also try mashing a little lower or adding the sugar during fermentation.

 

[Kee]

I am going to try this clone again the last couple times I tried to make it I could not get it down past 1.015. The only think I didnt do is add the servomyces. I have the wyeast nutrient also has zinc I am going to try that. Might also try mashing a little lower or adding the sugar during fermentation.

You didn't mention if you are aerating with pure oxygen. That helps. Also, you may want to let the temperature rise a little sooner. After the first couple of days I let the wort go to 80 (give or take a couple of degrees). CSI advises letting it rise evenly but I don't try to hold it back for long.

 

[jtp137]

You didn't mention if you are aerating with pure oxygen. That helps. Also, you may want to let the temperature rise a little sooner. After the first couple of days I let the wort go to 80 (give or take a couple of degrees). CSI advises letting it rise evenly but I don't try to hold it back for long.

Yes I use pure O2 might try what you did pitch mid 60's leave it for a day or 2 and let it free rise

 

[catdaddy66]

Just bottled my 3rd batch of this recipe. It had a bit drier finish due to the FG of 1.009 (OG was 1.090), coming out to 11% abv. Got 51 12oz servings


It will be tough to keep this bottled til next spring! But I may use it to celebrate my 52nd birthday on March 21, 2018!

 

[Oldskewl]

View attachment IMG_1657.jpg

Wow! I cracked a bottle last night at 6 months. This beer got amazing over the last 2 months. The plum aroma and flavor is more pronounced. Starting get some cherry too. A bit overcarbed but as long as you pour quickly it's all good.

 

[tjosborne]

How much would wlp500 or wy 1214 change the recipe. I don't feel like using 530 anymore, had to dump a batch of this that stalled at 1.040.

 

[GurraG]

How much would wlp500 or wy 1214 change the recipe. I don't feel like using 530 anymore, had to dump a batch of this that stalled at 1.040.

The flavour profile will be different, probably with more banana esters, and less spicy phenols. I think the wlp500/wy1214 may have a little less attenuation. You may also want to shoot for a slightly lower OG, since the wlp500 probably isn't as tolerant to high abv.
I have recently brewed a beer with wlp500 and d180 that fermented out from 1.086 to 1.016. It tasted really nice at bottling, but I will try to keep myself from opening a bottle for several more months.

 

[Jwin]

How much would wlp500 or wy 1214 change the recipe. I don't feel like using 530 anymore, had to dump a batch of this that stalled at 1.040.

If you want some security, you could pitch both. I have considered doing so, but I'm going to try just 3787 first.
Stage 1 starter just finished. Was a 6 month old pack, so I'm going to do a second stage, then a gyle to step up after harvesting off of this one.
I do have a wy1214(500) on standby. If I gyle 11g, I may split batch a 3787(530) and a 3787/1214 combo
If I do so, I will report back. If I go w a blend, I'll add an active starter on of 1214 on day 3 or so.

Also, going by available examples, I get a lot more dark fruit/ plum/ etc from beer w 3787. 1214 seems way lighter with cherry, white zin, and a tad more funk/Earth to me.
I imagine they would be very different beers apart.

At this point, I'm more inclined to try the 1214(500) in a fruity Belgian IPA.

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

Wow this thread is incredible as I'm looking to learn all I can before trying to brew a solid belgian quad. I was curious in regards the original recipe on one point and was hoping for some clarification:

What is the point of the boil down of a gallon of the wort to a thick syrup then re-introducing it in the boil? Is that an option instead of using the belgian candy sugar? I'm just trying understand the process the best I can, any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Kee]

Wow this thread is incredible as I'm looking to learn all I can before trying to brew a solid belgian quad. I was curious in regards the original recipe on one point and was hoping for some clarification:

What is the point of the boil down of a gallon of the wort to a thick syrup then re-introducing it in the boil? Is that an option instead of using the belgian candy sugar? I'm just trying understand the process the best I can, any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

The boil down is optional. It was in Saq's recipe and CSI kept it here, but later stopped doing it. Theoretically it will add some extra flavor, but it is a lot of extra work. I've done it both ways and have found very little difference between the two recipes, probably because the D-180 gives so much of the essential flavors to the beer.

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

The boil down is optional. It was in Saq's recipe and CSI kept it here, but later stopped doing it. Theoretically it will add some extra flavor, but it is a lot of extra work. I've done it both ways and have found very little difference between the two recipes, probably because the D-180 gives so much of the essential flavors to the beer.

Awesome thank you so much for the details. May first try I'll go without to speed up and simplify the brewday a bit.

 

[boland]

I've bottled this one about 4 weeks ago, and had one last week, and it already tastes awesome!!
Only brewed about 6L as the candy sirup is very expensive here.

I can hardly wait to crack open another one. Should I wait to let it age more? What's the recommended bottle time?

 

[Oldskewl]

Most people in this thread say it is awesome around 1 year. I bottled mine 7+ months ago. I have sampled a bottle every 2 months. Last sample was at 6 months and it definitely had evolved quite a bit from the 4 month sample. Lots of plum and cherry notes are starting to show up in the aroma and flavor. I plan to give a few bottles as gifts for the holidays. I hope that helps.

 

[Kee]

I can hardly wait to crack open another one. Should I wait to let it age more? What's the recommended bottle time?

Opinions will differ about when the beer peaks. Some age it for years. I usually drink one periodically to note the changes and after six months deem it ready, if I have any left. (There are always other batches on the way).

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

Just happened to notice the Northy 12 AG kit at Northern Brewer is the same as this recipe if you’re having issues finding what you need locally.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Most people in this thread say it is awesome around 1 year. I bottled mine 7+ months ago. I have sampled a bottle every 2 months. Last sample was at 6 months and it definitely had evolved quite a bit from the 4 month sample. Lots of plum and cherry notes are starting to show up in the aroma and flavor. I plan to give a few bottles as gifts for the holidays. I hope that helps.

It gets even better at two years (I still have some from when I made it 3 years ago).

 

[Jwin]

Just happened to notice the Northy 12 AG kit at Northern Brewer is the same as this recipe if you’re having issues finding what you need locally.

Just saw that in their catalog yesterday. Was meaning to check. Was curious if they had straight copied a csi recipe or what. Was also shocked to see the picture of the crew. 50-60+ employees! Nuts.

 

[Oldskewl]

It gets even better at two years (I still have some from when I made it 3 years ago).

Hope I can keep some around that long!

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

How has carbonation worked out for those that have made this? I've never pitched more yeast at bottling for beers, but I've also never fermented or let a bottle sit as long as this beer would. Is it necessary? Or do you just add the usual priming sugar at bottling and theres still enough yeast in there to get some carbonation?

Has anyone bottled off a keg?

 

[Oldskewl]

I still had enough yeast at bottling. From my experience 2 months or less and you should have plenty of yeast.

 

[griffi]

How has carbonation worked out for those that have made this? I've never pitched more yeast at bottling for beers, but I've also never fermented or let a bottle sit as long as this beer would. Is it necessary? Or do you just add the usual priming sugar at bottling and theres still enough yeast in there to get some carbonation?

Has anyone bottled off a keg?

I lagered mine for a month at around 35, so I added 2.5g of rehydrated US-05 to the bottling bucket along with the priming sugar. I tried one at six months and the carbonationis fine.

 

[Kee]

How has carbonation worked out for those that have made this? I've never pitched more yeast at bottling for beers, but I've also never fermented or let a bottle sit as long as this beer would. Is it necessary? Or do you just add the usual priming sugar at bottling and theres still enough yeast in there to get some carbonation?

Has anyone bottled off a keg?

If you do an extensive cold crash, I'd recommend pitching more yeast. I'm not set up for that now so I usually don't re-pitch.