Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

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jlangfo5 said:
I brewed my first batch of this beer today using the recipe on the first page of the thread.



I have been using a new kettle, and I only evaporate off .5 gallon per hour instead of the 1 gallon per hour I was hoping for, so I ended up with ~6.5 gallons at 1.080 using three lbs of the d-180 instead of 5.5 gallons at 1.090 using 2.5 lbs of the d-180.



Also had to move 3/4 oz of each the mid and late hop addition to the 60 minute addition so that I could hit the IBU target from the recipe.



I expect that all will be well though. Has anyone tried this brew at four months into aging?
Click to expand...


What's your fermentation schedule look like?

It's good after a few weeks or so, but certainly improves with bulk aging.
 
jlangfo5 said:
Has anyone tried this brew at four months into aging?
Click to expand...

I can't comment on the clone recipe but as far a the real thing goes I've some that I bought at In De Vrede that after six months was still quite bitter,the same batch at the cafe was fire water !
Year and a half and it was beginning to mellow and tasted what one would expect.
 
Cutterman said:
CSI: where did you buy your flask parts for your Krausen trap? I've searched the Internet up and down and can't find those parts. I would love to set a system up like that.
Click to expand...

The pyrex flask parts that we used for the demonstration during a pitch build-up and krausen capture can be ordered from most chemistry supply houses. Most of these parts should also be available on eBay. The stainless micro-industrial capture that we use in the brewing room was assembled with tri-clamp parts and an Eagle tri-clamp stainless bottle. I think I remember MoreBeer! recently carrying something close to our assembly.
 
Hi,

I'm currently fermenting my second batch - the first turned out great (thanks everyone), finishing at 1.016.

The second one however, seems to be stuck.
I mashed at 64.4 and hit an OG of 1.093, I used a 3.5L starter (Wyeast #3787).

Fermentation started nicely, and hit 1.021 after 2.5 weeks... but then it stopped.

4 days later - still 1.021. I roused the yeast.

4 more days - nothing - still 1.021.

So I read back over this entire thread - and it seems the advice is to pitch another large starter of super health yeast - so I did that.

I knocked the temp back down to 24c, pitched a fresh 3.5L starter, stirred it in super gently and ...... there were a few bubbles.

But after a few more days, and ramping the temp up to 27C, there are no more bubbles, and the reading is 1.020.

Now, it tastes amazing - better than my first batch (filter your water!!), albeit a little sweet :)

Looking back, it's possible that I didn't oxygenate sufficiently (I use the shake-till-I-get-bored method), or possibly my yeast is tired (but it shouldn't be, this is only its second batch).

My options:

1. I don't think I can bottle this - that would be bad
2. I could dump in a bunch of champagne yeast - would this work? how much yeast would I need?
3. I could keg it, and enjoy a delicious but sweet Westie in a keg
3a. I could keg it and let it ride - would it ferment more over a long period in the keg?
4. I could let it ride a little longer in the fermentor
5. Another starter of #3787? Should I oxygenate at this stage??


Any other thoughts or advice welcome. I'm at a loss.
 
endisnigh said:
Hi,

I'm currently fermenting my second batch - the first turned out great (thanks everyone), finishing at 1.016.

The second one however, seems to be stuck.
I mashed at 64.4 and hit an OG of 1.093, I used a 3.5L starter (Wyeast #3787).

Fermentation started nicely, and hit 1.021 after 2.5 weeks... but then it stopped.

4 days later - still 1.021. I roused the yeast.

4 more days - nothing - still 1.021.

So I read back over this entire thread - and it seems the advice is to pitch another large starter of super health yeast - so I did that.

I knocked the temp back down to 24c, pitched a fresh 3.5L starter, stirred it in super gently and ...... there were a few bubbles.

But after a few more days, and ramping the temp up to 27C, there are no more bubbles, and the reading is 1.020.

Now, it tastes amazing - better than my first batch (filter your water!!), albeit a little sweet :)

Looking back, it's possible that I didn't oxygenate sufficiently (I use the shake-till-I-get-bored method), or possibly my yeast is tired (but it shouldn't be, this is only its second batch).

My options:

1. I don't think I can bottle this - that would be bad
2. I could dump in a bunch of champagne yeast - would this work? how much yeast would I need?
3. I could keg it, and enjoy a delicious but sweet Westie in a keg
3a. I could keg it and let it ride - would it ferment more over a long period in the keg?
4. I could let it ride a little longer in the fermentor
5. Another starter of #3787? Should I oxygenate at this stage??


Any other thoughts or advice welcome. I'm at a loss.
Click to expand...

It happens periodically. The best hypothesis we have come up with is active-viable yeast with low vitality, (even in high counts from a well performed starter). A yeast can be active and healthy but fail the vitality test. I think the George Fix theory of "birth scarring" might be a possibility in these cases. The yeast reproduces initially but due to over-budding the yeast momentum fails at high ABV where it is most critical. Young yeast that has very little budding is found mainly in krausen. Interestingly enough, the BLAM report on Westvleteren 12 indicates that the monks at St. Sixtus use only fresh krausen harvested and transported the same day from Westmalle Abbey. Just a thought.
 
CSI said:
It happens periodically. The best hypothesis we have come up with is active yeast with low viability, (even in high counts from a well performed starter). A yeast can be active and healthy but fail the viability test. I think the George Fix theory of "birth scarring" might be a possibility in these cases. The yeast reproduces initially but due to over-budding the yeast momentum fails at high ABV where it is most critical. Young yeast that has very little budding and is found mainly in krausen. Interestingly enough, the BLAM report on Westvleteren 12 indicates that the monks at St. Sixtus use only fresh krausen harvested ad transported the same day from Westmalle Abbey. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Are you confusing viability with vitality? Viability is the proportion of living cells.
 
endisnigh said:
Hi,

I'm currently fermenting my second batch - the first turned out great (thanks everyone), finishing at 1.016.

The second one however, seems to be stuck.
I mashed at 64.4 and hit an OG of 1.093, I used a 3.5L starter (Wyeast #3787).

Fermentation started nicely, and hit 1.021 after 2.5 weeks... but then it stopped.

4 days later - still 1.021. I roused the yeast.

4 more days - nothing - still 1.021.

So I read back over this entire thread - and it seems the advice is to pitch another large starter of super health yeast - so I did that.

I knocked the temp back down to 24c, pitched a fresh 3.5L starter, stirred it in super gently and ...... there were a few bubbles.

But after a few more days, and ramping the temp up to 27C, there are no more bubbles, and the reading is 1.020.

Now, it tastes amazing - better than my first batch (filter your water!!), albeit a little sweet :)

Looking back, it's possible that I didn't oxygenate sufficiently (I use the shake-till-I-get-bored method), or possibly my yeast is tired (but it shouldn't be, this is only its second batch).

My options:

1. I don't think I can bottle this - that would be bad
2. I could dump in a bunch of champagne yeast - would this work? how much yeast would I need?
3. I could keg it, and enjoy a delicious but sweet Westie in a keg
3a. I could keg it and let it ride - would it ferment more over a long period in the keg?
4. I could let it ride a little longer in the fermentor
5. Another starter of #3787? Should I oxygenate at this stage??


Any other thoughts or advice welcome. I'm at a loss.
Click to expand...

The champagne yeast are better at simple sugars than maltose, so that probably won't work. Whether or not to try again is a judgment call. I kegged a batch that was almost 1.020, way too sweet for me, but my wife loved it.

Others have said that the gravity may gradually creep down after appearing stuck but that has not been my experience. If the beer is clear it is probably done.
 
endisnigh said:
Hi,

I'm currently fermenting my second batch - the first turned out great (thanks everyone), finishing at 1.016.

The second one however, seems to be stuck.
I mashed at 64.4 and hit an OG of 1.093, I used a 3.5L starter (Wyeast #3787).

Fermentation started nicely, and hit 1.021 after 2.5 weeks... but then it stopped.

4 days later - still 1.021. I roused the yeast.

4 more days - nothing - still 1.021.

So I read back over this entire thread - and it seems the advice is to pitch another large starter of super health yeast - so I did that.

I knocked the temp back down to 24c, pitched a fresh 3.5L starter, stirred it in super gently and ...... there were a few bubbles.

But after a few more days, and ramping the temp up to 27C, there are no more bubbles, and the reading is 1.020.

Now, it tastes amazing - better than my first batch (filter your water!!), albeit a little sweet :)

Looking back, it's possible that I didn't oxygenate sufficiently (I use the shake-till-I-get-bored method), or possibly my yeast is tired (but it shouldn't be, this is only its second batch).

My options:

1. I don't think I can bottle this - that would be bad
2. I could dump in a bunch of champagne yeast - would this work? how much yeast would I need?
3. I could keg it, and enjoy a delicious but sweet Westie in a keg
3a. I could keg it and let it ride - would it ferment more over a long period in the keg?
4. I could let it ride a little longer in the fermentor
5. Another starter of #3787? Should I oxygenate at this stage??


Any other thoughts or advice welcome. I'm at a loss.
Click to expand...

If you were to pitch more yeast, I'd look at WLP099, the high gravity yeast. It will eat anything. It may, however, dry your beer out a little too much.
 
Very nice.. I scaled back the recipe to an OG of 1.078, but basically the same.

Just had one at 4 months in the bottle and it is great. I will definitely age this one and it will be an awesome brew. I can see this being one of the best Belgians I have brewed, and I have brewed more than a few.
 
beergolf said:
very nice.. I scaled back the recipe to an og of 1.078, but basically the same.

Just had one at 4 months in the bottle and it is great. I will definitely age this one and it will be an awesome brew. I can see this being one of the best belgians i have brewed, and i have brewed more than a few.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Made the recipe using a new brewing system...hit an OG of 1.072...decided to dump the other half of the candi syyrup to try and aise the OG in my haste.

I also under pitched by only using a 1 liter started. After realizing this the next day I grabbed another vial...this time using a Belgian ale yeast as I previously purchased the last Abbey yeast.

After one week per the fermentation schedule, I am at 1.014. Letting go for another week.

Tasted sample. It's Grrrrrrreat!!
 
Quick .02 on using more vigorous strains for this clone. You can blast the FG down by using them but the ester/phenol profiles will be different. That's speaking from a clone only viewpoint. That being sad we've used Wy3711 to drive this ale down to 1.010. It's much more phenolic and dry this way...like a high ABV dark saison.
 
Does anyone know what is a good water profile for this recipe or for a BDSA in general?

What water adjustments do you make, if any?
 
brew_darrymore said:
Does anyone know what is a good water profile for this recipe or for a BDSA in general?

What water adjustments do you make, if any?
Click to expand...

The published municipal water profile for Vleteren has been cited, (and we've tried it), but the monastery at St. Sixtus treats their brewing water, (unpublished). The Chimay or Westmalle water profiles work very well for this clone. Here's a link:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/common_belgian_water_profiles_rev_1.2.pdf
 
Thanks, CSI!

Santa brought me a pH meter this Christmas and I've been doing some reading and experimenting with water chemistry. I am about to brew this recipe for a third time and want to play around with the water profile.
 
Hey guys, I brewed the New World and got an OG of 1.094. She's now at 1.020 after 7 days. Now sitting at 67 degrees, do I rack and hope that promotes the yeast to finish in the teens or wait it out another couple days without racking?
 
FredZ said:
Hey guys, I brewed the New World and got an OG of 1.094. She's now at 1.020 after 7 days. Now sitting at 67 degrees, do I rack and hope that promotes the yeast to finish in the teens or wait it out another couple days without racking?
Click to expand...

Get the temperature up in the high 70's if you can, for the best chance to reach FG before racking to secondary.
 
Although I made the Westy on September 9, 2014, I didn't bottle it until December 19, 2014. Thus it has now bottle aged for over a year. I have tried this beer several times since bottling, but just tried it again yesterday. It has definitely improved significantly over that time - very smooth now with many complexities in taste that were not there before. I have heard that it continues to improve and is best after having aged 2-5 years. One thing I noticed is that temperature is critical. I started tasting it when it was still quite cold, but it improved immensely as it warmed up. I estimate that the best temperature for drinking it is about 50-55 F.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Although I made the Westy on September 9, 2014, I didn't bottle it until December 19, 2014. Thus it has now bottle aged for over a year. I have tried this beer several times since bottling, but just tried it again yesterday. It has definitely improved significantly over that time - very smooth now with many complexities in taste that were not there before. I have heard that it continues to improve and is best after having aged 2-5 years. One thing I noticed is that temperature is critical. I started tasting it when it was still quite cold, but it improved immensely as it warmed up. I estimate that the best temperature for drinking it is about 50-55 F.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. 2 years in bottle aging makes this ale something very special. It seems to get better over a very long aging period. I'm saving the last bottle of a five year old brew (one of our first). At four years old last year it was beyond amazing and there was still a hint of Brewers Gold.
 
cyanmonkey said:
What's your fermentation schedule look like?

It's good after a few weeks or so, but certainly improves with bulk aging.
Click to expand...

Sorry the delayed response, but here is how the fermentation went:

Pitching Day-----67F--1.081
Day Two---------76F--1.03X
Day Three - Six--82F--1.0XX
Day Seven-------32F--1.0XX
Day Nine---------32F--1.006

Thats right, I went from 1.081 down to 1.006! I didn't taste anything fussel, and it was more bitter than what I expected it to be, but I imagine that it should age out with time. Also, there is a significant, but not overpowering banana component on the nose. Taste is slightly spicy, but I wouldn't call it face plant clove like you find in a hefe. Figure this should age nicely.


Here is a picture of the beer after running the air pump for a bit.

belgin_air.jpg
 
I brewed the single malt variation of this clone, but scaled down to 3 gallons in the last week of December 2015. I had an OG of 1.092 and got it down to 1.012 after a couple weeks of fermentation staying within the process outlined by CSI. I sampled the beer while transferring for bulk aging. What I liked most is that the beer had that warming from the inside feeling. I will bottle in early spring and try my first bottle during the holidays of 2016. I can`t wait.

CSI - Thanks so much for sharing. I really appreciate your effort. I look forward to using more Candi Syrup products in the future. In fact, I just started fermenting my DIPA with 10oz of Simplicity that I purchased for priming the Westvleteren 12.

Cheers
 
jlangfo5 said:
Sorry the delayed response, but here is how the fermentation went:

Pitching Day-----67F--1.081
Day Two---------76F--1.03X
Day Three - Six--82F--1.0XX
Day Seven-------32F--1.0XX
Day Nine---------32F--1.006

Thats right, I went from 1.081 down to 1.006! I didn't taste anything fussel, and it was more bitter than what I expected it to be, but I imagine that it should age out with time. Also, there is a significant, but not overpowering banana component on the nose. Taste is slightly spicy, but I wouldn't call it face plant clove like you find in a hefe. Figure this should age nicely.


Here is a picture of the beer after running the air pump for a bit.

belgin_air.jpg
Click to expand...

That's beautiful!
 
Kee said:
The champagne yeast are better at simple sugars than maltose, so that probably won't work. Whether or not to try again is a judgment call. I kegged a batch that was almost 1.020, way too sweet for me, but my wife loved it.

Others have said that the gravity may gradually creep down after appearing stuck but that has not been my experience. If the beer is clear it is probably done.
Click to expand...

Thanks - I might let it ride a little longer, as a reading yesterday showed it has dropped to 1.019, giving me hope :)
 
Got mine transferred to secondary over the weekend. Was wondering if you all think this is too much headspace for a prolonged secondary? Due to the excessive blow off there is about .5 gallons to 1 gallon of head space in the 5 gallon fermenter. Worried about oxidation

View attachment 1452567415097.jpg
 
mmacdon3 said:
Got mine transferred to secondary over the weekend. Was wondering if you all think this is too much headspace for a prolonged secondary? Due to the excessive blow off there is about .5 gallons to 1 gallon of head space in the 5 gallon fermenter. Worried about oxidation
Click to expand...


Were you able to purge with CO2?

I've also read about sanitizing marbles and dropping them in to minimize headspace.
 
mmacdon3 said:
Got mine transferred to secondary over the weekend. Was wondering if you all think this is too much headspace for a prolonged secondary? Due to the excessive blow off there is about .5 gallons to 1 gallon of head space in the 5 gallon fermenter. Worried about oxidation
Click to expand...


Were you able to purge with CO2?

I've also read about sanitizing marbles and dropping them in to minimize headspace.
 
mmacdon3 said:
Got mine transferred to secondary over the weekend. Was wondering if you all think this is too much headspace for a prolonged secondary? Due to the excessive blow off there is about .5 gallons to 1 gallon of head space in the 5 gallon fermenter. Worried about oxidation
Click to expand...

That's why you need a 6 gallon or larger fermenter for 5 gallon batches.
 
I actually fermented around 6.5 gallons inside of my kettle, left about a gallon of trub behind and filled a 6 gallon carboy with the beer and topped off with marbles. I bought a WHOLE BUNCH of clear glass marbles at a hobby store just for this purpose, in matter of fact, I bought every clear glass marble the store had lol.

I don't think you can get much better than topping off with clear glass marbles, they have a smooth surface and are inert without any paint on the outside to chip off. Boiling them would probably work even better than using starsan to sanitize the surface of them.
 
mmacdon3 said:
Got mine transferred to secondary over the weekend. Was wondering if you all think this is too much headspace for a prolonged secondary? Due to the excessive blow off there is about .5 gallons to 1 gallon of head space in the 5 gallon fermenter. Worried about oxidation
Click to expand...

The surface should be covered with a very thin layer of natural CO2 due to latent fermentation in secondary. CO2 being heavier than air will displace any surface oxygen contact. As long as the carboy isn't disturbed it should be fine. The oxidation concern can be the transfer itself sometimes. The recommendation to purge when transferring is a good one. We ferment in single containers through the entire cycle dumping yeast via large diameter discharge at the bottom of our conicals.
 
4 days passed and I'm still stuck at 1.020 down from 1.094 OG. If I cold condition now the yeast will go dormant, so I racked to a new vessel hoping it would promote a little yeast action. Due to a vigorous blow-off, I have less beer than ideal. My apparent attenuation calculates to 77%. Should I leave this beer at 67 a while longer?

image.jpg
 
jlangfo5 said:
Sorry the delayed response, but here is how the fermentation went:

Pitching Day-----67F--1.081
Day Two---------76F--1.03X
Day Three - Six--82F--1.0XX
Day Seven-------32F--1.0XX
Day Nine---------32F--1.006

Thats right, I went from 1.081 down to 1.006! I didn't taste anything fussel, and it was more bitter than what I expected it to be, but I imagine that it should age out with time. Also, there is a significant, but not overpowering banana component on the nose. Taste is slightly spicy, but I wouldn't call it face plant clove like you find in a hefe. Figure this should age nicely.


Here is a picture of the beer after running the air pump for a bit.

belgin_air.jpg
Click to expand...

I had a very similar experience. Shocked me how quick it dropped, but it did ferment like a monster. I also had a similar taste experience..just a little "background heat" but still raisiny plum like I didn't notice any banana in the nose that I recall. I went straight to tertiary and it has about 30 days left before bottling.
 
So I know we're shooting for the Chimay or Beerse water profile here. Any specific mash ph?
 
jtp137 said:
Just be careful the amount of acid needed depends on your mash water profile
Click to expand...

I started using Brunwater in December, right after purchasing a pH meter. It's a lot of fun playing with the spreadsheet and seeing what effect different minerals and acids will have on the mash.
 
I brewed a version of this back in MAR 2015, aged in a keg for some time and bottled about a month ago. I've cracked (2) so far and both have a head issue. They pour like soda. By that, the CO2 is releasing violently while poured creating a head and then quickly dissipates and appears flat (it's not). It has a peculiar mouthfeel I think can be attributed to this issue as well. Any ideas?

9# Belgian Pilsner
8# Belgian Pale
2# Dark Candi Sugar
1# Cane Sugar
0.50oz Warrior 60m
1.00oz Hallertauer 30m
1.00oz Styrian 15m
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient 5m
WY1762

Mashed 90m at 148°. Fermented at 68° ambient for (3) days, then increased temps to 73°/76°/80°/84°. Rested a week at 84° then returned to 68° ambient for duration of aging. Racked to secondary after (4) weeks. Carbed to ~3.0 volumes.
 
mbbransc said:
I brewed a version of this back in MAR 2015, aged in a keg for some time and bottled about a month ago. I've cracked (2) so far and both have a head issue. They pour like soda. By that, the CO2 is releasing violently while poured creating a head and then quickly dissipates and appears flat (it's not). It has a peculiar mouthfeel I think can be attributed to this issue as well. Any ideas?

Carbed to ~3.0 volumes.
Click to expand...

How long did you pressurize the keg before you poured it in your bottles? You get optimal carbonation if you've pressurized the keg at the correct pressure for the temperature at which the keg was kept, for three weeks. Also, did you get a lot of foam when you poured it in your bottles?
 
Bottoms_Up said:
How long did you pressurize the keg before you poured it in your bottles? You get optimal carbonation if you've pressurized the keg at the correct pressure for the temperature at which the keg was kept, for three weeks. Also, did you get a lot of foam when you poured it in your bottles?
Click to expand...

Beer was under pressure for 5 or 6 months before being bottled (with a BeerGun). No, hardly any foaming at all.
 

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