Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

Yakima 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Its not starchy at all and not sweet. Just the classic green apple of a young beer, but I can taste the caramel, dark fruit and complexity
 
I'm totally making this but going to wait until I have a pipeline built up so I can afford to give this its proper temperatures and times.
 
CSI said:
If the batch is still pushing gravity then 60F. The brightening crash is 50F. Because this ale is so dark, the brightening time can be variable.
Click to expand...


I really beed to get a bottling hydrometer its hard to tell over a few points.

I followed the recipe to a T from the first page, next time I may increase the pale or throw a 1/4 pound of melanoidin malt to push the toasted bread flavor and simulate a decoction
 
jtp137 said:
I really beed to get a bottling hydrometer its hard to tell over a few points.

I followed the recipe to a T from the first page, next time I may increase the pale or throw a 1/4 pound of melanoidin malt to push the toasted bread flavor and simulate a decoction
Click to expand...

We ran a trial in October last year using only Dingeman's Pale. It's much more bready than the import and was well worth the experiment. It's now my favorite variation of this ale. I'd leave the Melanoidin and go all Pale IMHO.
 
CSI said:
We ran a trial in October last year using only Dingeman's Pale. It's much more bready than the import and was well worth the experiment. It's now my favorite variation of this ale. I'd leave the Melanoidin and go all Pale IMHO.
Click to expand...


Hmm interesting. All pale malt. What about something like 75%pale 25%pilsner
 
CSI Looking through the old thread it looks like a lot of people would pitch at 65 and let the yeast rise naturally to 80 and hold the temp until it reached around 80% attenuation. Some said that it hit 80 in 36 hours

Is there a reason why you pitch at 65 and ramp evenly over 7 days till you hit 80. Is the first method susceptible to fusel alcohols. Or does the first method give too much fruity esters not characteristic of a true westy 12
 
jtp137 said:
CSI Looking through the old thread it looks like a lot of people would pitch at 65 and let the yeast rise naturally to 80 and hold the temp until it reached around 80% attenuation. Some said that it hit 80 in 36 hours

Is there a reason why you pitch at 65 and ramp evenly over 7 days till you hit 80. Is the first method susceptible to fusel alcohols. Or does the first method give too much fruity esters not characteristic of a true westy 12
Click to expand...

Really good topic. The old thread had a lot of carryover questions in method that we've tried to correct here in the new thread. A free rise on a high abv ale can get well above 85F internally, (i've seen 92F on the top side). There are three reasons this can marginalize the quality of a high abv clone. (1) Allowing free rise can create a high mortality rate in the yeast while creating decomposition by-products, (histamines and protein decomposition chain sulphur by-products). (2) The production of too high a concentration of fusels. (3) too much fruity ester production. All three of these carry noticeable negatives if submitting to BJCP competitions or sharing with experienced ale tasters.

BLAM notes that the free rise is manually controlled by the monks at St. Sixtus to keep the temperature in check during the rise to high krausen. We took our queue from this method and tried 84F, 82F and 80F. When controlling the metabolic temp to no higher than 80F we obtained the smoothest and best clone of this ale consistently.

We also found that yeast quality, (fresh krausen), is equally important to the pitch rate. For 5 gallons (19 L) of 1.090 wort the pitch should start at 300-320 Billion cells of high quality yeast. We walked this down here to 270 billion for 19L. The end result of this clone should be a subtle balance of bread-fruit-spice-yeast, however, this is the baseline for the clone. No rules beyond the baseline :)

BTW, I apologize for taking so long to get the yeast krausen capture pics up. I've had to step back from our larger capture method using stainless tri-clamp micro-industrial hardware to a pyrex version so the process can be photographed. I have the new glassware and will set this up for pics.
 
Well crap went to get my yeast today and my lhbs no longer carries wlp530. They do have Wyeast 3787 Belgian Trappist. if it makes all the difference in the world then I'll bit the bullet and order the 530 online.
 
I brewed for the first time this just before Christmas with my brother-in-law, and it's now done with the 2 month aging process at 50F and I'm ready to bottle. I haven't bottled much I went right to kegs so I have a few questions.

I read the great summary of tips on page 3 by Bottoms_up and it seems like I have some options:

I could carb just with corn sugar, but others report using CSI'S D-180 or CSI's Golden (clear) syrup. It seems like 2.5-2.6 volumes in a good target. Also I see I should re-pitch about 75 billion cells for my 5 gallon batch.

Any advice or tips? I just want to make sure I get proper carbonation and don't pooch up this beer which has signs of being spectacular at this very-last step.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
I brewed for the first time this just before Christmas with my brother-in-law, and it's now done with the 2 month aging process at 50F and I'm ready to bottle. I haven't bottled much I went right to kegs so I have a few questions.

I read the great summary of tips on page 3 by Bottoms_up and it seems like I have some options:

I could carb just with corn sugar, but others report using CSI'S D-180 or CSI's Golden (clear) syrup. It seems like 2.5-2.6 volumes in a good target. Also I see I should re-pitch about 75 billion cells for my 5 gallon batch.

Any advice or tips? I just want to make sure I get proper carbonation and don't pooch up this beer which has signs of being spectacular at this very-last step.
Click to expand...

Using D-180 is probably the best option, but I went with dextrose so I wouldn't have to store a partly opened package of D-180. I have kegs but decided to bottle, since this is a beer you want to age, and I didn't want to tie up a keg for such a long period. This is the approach I used:

I boiled 1-1/4 cups of water in a small pot. When it came to a boil, I added 172 grams of dextrose (corn sugar) and stirred. Theoretically, this should give 2.8 volumes of CO2 @ 70 F. Let it boil for 10-15 minutes. Then cool it to room temperature and add it to a sanitized fermentation pail. Siphon the beer into the pail.

In the meantime I added about 50 ml of pre-boiled and cooled water to a small sanitized pot and heated it to about 120 F. I took about 50 ml of this and added it to a small sanitized measuring cup (e.g. half liter). When it cooled to about 110 F I sprinkled about 1/4 - 1/2 package of EC-1118 yeast on the surface, covered with sanitized plastic wrap, and let it sit for 15 minutes. Then I stirred the yeast and added it to the beer in the pail, and stirred it very gently.

Then I bottled the beer. Let it bottle condition at room temperature for at least two weeks. Try one (or bottle a few in PET bottles and feel for rock hardness). If not ready, leave for another week. Then store the bottles in a cool environment.

I'm very happy with the resultant amount of pressure in the bottles.
 
Whats the deal with the shelf life of the d180? I've had some now since the fall and it's gonna be another month or two until I can brew this. Also noticed there is no date on the bags...
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Using D-180 is probably the best option, but I went with dextrose so I wouldn't have to store a partly opened package of D-180. I have kegs but decided to bottle, since this is a beer you want to age, and I didn't want to tie up a keg for such a long period. This is the approach I used:

I boiled 1-1/4 cups of water in a small pot. When it came to a boil, I added 172 grams of dextrose (corn sugar) and stirred. Theoretically, this should give 2.8 volumes of CO2 @ 70 F. Let it boil for 10-15 minutes. Then cool it to room temperature and add it to a sanitized fermentation pail. Siphon the beer into the pail.

In the meantime I added about 50 ml of pre-boiled and cooled water to a small sanitized pot and heated it to about 120 F. I took about 50 ml of this and added it to a small sanitized measuring cup (e.g. half liter). When it cooled to about 110 F I sprinkled about 1/4 - 1/2 package of EC-1118 yeast on the surface, covered with sanitized plastic wrap, and let it sit for 15 minutes. Then I stirred the yeast and added it to the beer in the pail, and stirred it very gently.

Then I bottled the beer. Let it bottle condition at room temperature for at least two weeks. Try one (or bottle a few in PET bottles and feel for rock hardness). If not ready, leave for another week. Then store the bottles in a cool environment.

I'm very happy with the resultant amount of pressure in the bottles.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for the great info Bottoms_Up! I have some yeast from the brew I siphoned off a few months ago, I was going to spend a few days getting that going with some starters to get my ~50-75B cells.

I can't wait to try this baby!
 
Hey guys,
Question on the long secondary... I brewed a double batch of this back on February 14th, and am itching to get my fermentation chamber back for other brews, the pipeline is running thin!

I am thinking of brewing a couple batches on easter weekend, which would mean bottling this brew after a secondary of 4 weeks at 50f plus the two weeks in primary, so 6 weeks post brew date total.

If I bottle at that point, how much would that affect the outcome, especially since I am planning on letting it sit in bottles another 6 months before even trying it?

Thanks for the input!
 
slamman190 said:
Hey guys,
Question on the long secondary... I brewed a double batch of this back on February 14th, and am itching to get my fermentation chamber back for other brews, the pipeline is running thin!

I am thinking of brewing a couple batches on easter weekend, which would mean bottling this brew after a secondary of 4 weeks at 50f plus the two weeks in primary, so 6 weeks post brew date total.

If I bottle at that point, how much would that affect the outcome, especially since I am planning on letting it sit in bottles another 6 months before even trying it?

Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...

Sure, as long as the FG is at least 1.012-1.013 you'll be in great shape. Most of the aging and flavor development occurs in the bottle.
 
It was stuck around 1.014 to 1.015 I repitched and let it sit warm for another week. Total of 5 weeks

Next time I will pitch more yeast, maybe my home made stir plate didnt get me close to 320 billion cells
 
I brewed this 10 days ago and followed the CSI technique of slowly ramping up from 64 to 80 over 7 days. I held it at 80 for 24 hours and then killed the heat. I just checked and I'm currently at 1.009 with the hydrometer and the refractometer in agreement. I was shocked at how good the sample tasted. I figured with a beer this big and it only being +10d it would not taste very pleasing, but I was pleasantly surprised. Very little heat from the alcohol and it has a clean/simple Belgian fruitiness about it. I'm sure the more complex dark stone fruit flavors and spice will appear with age.

I apologize if this has already been addressed in a previous post, but does anyone have suggestions for those who can't bulk condition at 50F? I understand that no matter what I do, it won't be a perfect match to the recipe. Should I go ahead and rack to a secondary? Should I plan to bottle next week and then condition for a year? In bottles, I could probably move it all to a friends cellar that would stay around 50 for the next couple of months.

Thanks for all the work that went into creating this incredibly helpful forum post!
 
jhaislip said:
I brewed this 10 days ago and followed the CSI technique of slowly ramping up from 64 to 80 over 7 days. I held it at 80 for 24 hours and then killed the heat. I just checked and I'm currently at 1.009 with the hydrometer and the refractometer in agreement. I was shocked at how good the sample tasted. I figured with a beer this big and it only being +10d it would not taste very pleasing, but I was pleasantly surprised. Very little heat from the alcohol and it has a clean/simple Belgian fruitiness about it. I'm sure the more complex dark stone fruit flavors and spice will appear with age.

I apologize if this has already been addressed in a previous post, but does anyone have suggestions for those who can't bulk condition at 50F? I understand that no matter what I do, it won't be a perfect match to the recipe. Should I go ahead and rack to a secondary? Should I plan to bottle next week and then condition for a year? In bottles, I could probably move it all to a friends cellar that would stay around 50 for the next couple of months.

Thanks for all the work that went into creating this incredibly helpful forum post!
Click to expand...

Those are great numbers. The 50F crash is mainly for brightening so you could crash and bottle in a week or so depending on how well the yeast floccs.
 
jhaislip said:
I brewed this 10 days ago and followed the CSI technique of slowly ramping up from 64 to 80 over 7 days. I held it at 80 for 24 hours and then killed the heat. I just checked and I'm currently at 1.009 with the hydrometer and the refractometer in agreement. I was shocked at how good the sample tasted. I figured with a beer this big and it only being +10d it would not taste very pleasing, but I was pleasantly surprised. Very little heat from the alcohol and it has a clean/simple Belgian fruitiness about it. I'm sure the more complex dark stone fruit flavors and spice will appear with age.

I apologize if this has already been addressed in a previous post, but does anyone have suggestions for those who can't bulk condition at 50F? I understand that no matter what I do, it won't be a perfect match to the recipe. Should I go ahead and rack to a secondary? Should I plan to bottle next week and then condition for a year? In bottles, I could probably move it all to a friends cellar that would stay around 50 for the next couple of months.

Thanks for all the work that went into creating this incredibly helpful forum post!
Click to expand...

I usually go straight from the primary to bottles (or keg). It will age well in bottles, although there are bound to be subtle differences than following the recipe exactly.

I admire your patience if you are aging for a year. It will be tasting great before that.
 
Kee said:
I usually go straight from the primary to bottles (or keg). It will age well in bottles, although there are bound to be subtle differences than following the recipe exactly.

I admire your patience if you are aging for a year. It will be tasting great before that.
Click to expand...

Thanks Kee. Do you think additional yeast will be needed if I'm bottling this early? Would cold crashing be wise? I could stick the carboy outside for a couple of cold nights which would cool it down quite a bit.

Edit: As for letting it age a whole year, that will only work if I let the wife hide the bottles. ; )
 
jhaislip said:
Thanks Kee. Do you think additional yeast will be needed if I'm bottling this early? Would cold crashing be wise? I could stick the carboy outside for a couple of cold nights which would cool it down quite a bit.

Edit: As for letting it age a whole year, that will only work if I let the wife hide the bottles. ; )
Click to expand...

I don't pitch additional yeast when I bottle after such a short time. (After an extended secondary it's recommended). I usually cold crash, but if the beer is clear that is an optional step.

And yes, the better batches are hard to save. My wife appreciates good beer also.
 
Last edited:
I bottled the batch I made at the end of Dec last night. Once I unwrapped the carboy I was really surprised how much yeast there was at the bottom. The beer dropped about 1/4-1/2" of yeast and man was it really incredibly clean looking now. The hydrometer sample I tasted was really great, although it still had a noticeable alcohol bite on it. I am going to try and age these at least 6 months before cracking my first bottle. Also I figure the timing will be great for christmas gifts. :)

Thanks CSI, and Bottoms_Up for helping me make this great beer. If you haven't brewed it yet, it's worth it!
 
jhaislip said:
Thanks Kee. Do you think additional yeast will be needed if I'm bottling this early? Would cold crashing be wise? I could stick the carboy outside for a couple of cold nights which would cool it down quite a bit.

Edit: As for letting it age a whole year, that will only work if I let the wife hide the bottles. ; )
Click to expand...

They are hard to resist :)
 
Been looking for a good Westy recipe for a while now. Am trying this one soon. I did a Belgian tour and was able to go to the Abby (even did the mass with the monks) then headed over to the store and got 2 six pack gift sets of the 12. There is never a guarantee you can get the 12 if you go. They may not have it on hand and may just have the others available. Felt fortunate that day.

Here it is back home. Did a taste test with the 2 of them. Closer than you would think (St. Bernardus was actually started from a monk from St. Sixtus so may explain the closeness).

kVisuZE.jpg
 
BlackWatchBrewery said:
Been looking for a good Westy recipe for a while now. Am trying this one soon. I did a Belgian tour and was able to go to the Abby (even did the mass with the monks) then headed over to the store and got 2 six pack gift sets of the 12. There is never a guarantee you can get the 12 if you go. They may not have it on hand and may just have the others available. Felt fortunate that day.

Here it is back home. Did a taste test with the 2 of them. Closer than you would think (St. Bernardus was actually started from a monk from St. Sixtus so may explain the closeness).

kVisuZE.jpg
Click to expand...

You inspired me to do a side by side tasting of the St. Bernardus and a Westy clone aged 4 1/2 months (CSI recipe). The clone holds its own. (My wife declared the clone a hands down winner). It reminds me somehow of cognac, where the St. Bernardus is a little more fruity and less subtle.

That was purely for fun and very subjective and unscientific. But tasters I respect agree that this recipe needs to be brewed again and again.
 
I actually came across this thread and the other large Westy 12 thread when I was looking for info on making a St. Bernardus abt 12 clone. After checking the threads out I decided to I'd give the Westy 12 clone a try. I haven't had a Westy in years, but I love Belgian Dark Strongs, so I figured I'd give it a try.

I made it this morning, the only deviation from the recipe is I used 2lbs of D-180 instead of 2.5lbs, and I'm using Wyeast 3787. My OG came short, I only hit 1.082. I'm hoping that it will still turn out good. I've got it at 64F right now, and will ramp it up through the next week.
 
BrewerTom said:
I actually came across this thread and the other large Westy 12 thread when I was looking for info on making a St. Bernardus abt 12 clone. After checking the threads out I decided to I'd give the Westy 12 clone a try. I haven't had a Westy in years, but I love Belgian Dark Strongs, so I figured I'd give it a try.

I made it this morning, the only deviation from the recipe is I used 2lbs of D-180 instead of 2.5lbs, and I'm using Wyeast 3787. My OG came short, I only hit 1.082. I'm hoping that it will still turn out good. I've got it at 64F right now, and will ramp it up through the next week.
Click to expand...

I grossly over-estimated the amount of trub (the Westy has very little trub) and the amount of water, and as a result I ended up with about 21 liters rather than 19. I decided to dilute it enough to make it up to 23 liters, so my S.G. ended up at 1.079. It still turned out fantastic - maybe even better than a Westy since the taste is a little more subtle. I call mine a Westy 10 rather than a 12 :)
 
Bottoms_Up said:
I grossly over-estimated the amount of trub (the Westy has very little trub) and the amount of water, and as a result I ended up with about 21 liters rather than 19. I decided to dilute it enough to make it up to 23 liters, so my S.G. ended up at 1.079. It still turned out fantastic - maybe even better than a Westy since the taste is a little more subtle. I call mine a Westy 10 rather than a 12 :)
Click to expand...

I just made another realization. I assumed that my efficiency would remain the same as with my lower gravity beers, but after some recent analysis, that doesn't seem to be the case. I believe that my efficiency drops at least 8 percentage points with higher gravity beers.

Has anyone else noticed a drop of efficiency with higher gravity beer? That is certainly something to take into account when calculating grain amounts.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
I just made another realization. I assumed that my efficiency would remain the same as with my lower gravity beers, but after some recent analysis, that doesn't seem to be the case. I believe that my efficiency drops at least 8 percentage points with higher gravity beers.

Has anyone else noticed a drop of efficiency with higher gravity beer? That is certainly something to take into account when calculating grain amounts.
Click to expand...

Efficiency usually drops with high gravity beers. I thought it was just me for a while but others have mentioned this. I do not have a formula, but go by my notes to decide on the grain bill.
 
BTW, I apologize for taking so long to get the yeast krausen capture pics up. I've had to step back from our larger capture method using stainless tri-clamp micro-industrial hardware to a pyrex version so the process can be photographed. I have the new glassware and will set this up for pics.[/QUOTE]

I'm looking forward to seeing your write up on krausening, as I've brewed this twice now and ended up at 1.020 both times. This time instead of bottling a syrupy mess, I pitched some brett brux into secondary that I had on hand, and I'm letting it ride. Should be interesting if nothing else. The first batch I brewed is about 10 months in the bottle now and tasting better and better, just a bit too sweet. I'd probably be totally over brewing this beer again if I couldn't taste the potential for greatness in it.

Anyway, both times I've made appropriate sized starters, chilled decanted, pitched at 65, and temp controlled the the rise up to 80 over 7 days. Not sure what more I could do (aside from this krausen for which you speak of) to get this to finish out the rest of the way. Hopefully, if I do brew it again, that will get me there.

Cheers!
 

Similar threads

V
No sign of fermentation after 48 hrs
Replies
3
Views
389
odie
odie
G
Kolsch recipe - need help
Replies
31
Views
2K
superiorsat
S
Zippy123
Feedback on recipe to split mash for two different beers
Replies
2
Views
440
Zippy123
Zippy123
H
Coors Banquet
Replies
0
Views
869
huckdavidson
H
Gadjobrinus
Festbier - first lager back in.
Replies
17
Views
1K
Brooothru
Brooothru

Latest posts

Back
Top