Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

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syrup arrived, @CSI the package is a little bit different from the one that i saw on your website, is a new (or old) package or this isn't your candi syrup?

if it's the correct one tomorrow i'm starting with the starter:mug:

if it the real CSI candi and someone need to buy the CSI's syrup in Europe can find it at:
http://www.hobbybrauerversand.de/
very friendly, for shipping outside Germany, Belgium and Holland you can send a mail.

2015-09-24 12.59.33.jpg
 
Tried digging through the thread to see if this has been asked but I just couldn't find it so I appologize if its already been spoken about (I assume it hasnt since there definitely wasnt pages and pages discussing it).

How important is the split of using some pilsner and some pale malt in the grist? Another way to ask what would I be missing if I did all pilsner and omittted the pale malt but kept everything else the same?

I have a BDSA going and wanted this to be a serious attempt at a simple base malt/dark candi sugar BDSA. I finished grinding the grain and then suddenly remembered this thread I looked at awhile back and remembered the split using pilsner and pale malt at the same time. I have Briess Pilsner and Briess Pale Ale malts on hand and the beer is already fermenting so that is sort fo already going to be the way its going to be (I figured the Briess Pale Ale malt would've been weird and wouldn't be anywhere near a Castle Pale malt anyway so I'm trying to make sure I can sleep at night).

TLDR: My BDSA is only Pilsner malt (with a little acidulated malt to adjust my mash pH) and dark candi sugar (homemade between 180L and 225L range, smelled delicious like plum/prune reduction). What am I missing by using only pilsner without the addition of pale malt?
 
Not sure about the all Pilsner but if I remember correctly CSI said he had done some all pale malt versions and said he really liked it
 
ArkotRamathorn said:
Tried digging through the thread to see if this has been asked but I just couldn't find it so I appologize if its already been spoken about (I assume it hasnt since there definitely wasnt pages and pages discussing it).

How important is the split of using some pilsner and some pale malt in the grist? Another way to ask what would I be missing if I did all pilsner and omittted the pale malt but kept everything else the same?

I have a BDSA going and wanted this to be a serious attempt at a simple base malt/dark candi sugar BDSA. I finished grinding the grain and then suddenly remembered this thread I looked at awhile back and remembered the split using pilsner and pale malt at the same time. I have Briess Pilsner and Briess Pale Ale malts on hand and the beer is already fermenting so that is sort fo already going to be the way its going to be (I figured the Briess Pale Ale malt would've been weird and wouldn't be anywhere near a Castle Pale malt anyway so I'm trying to make sure I can sleep at night).

TLDR: My BDSA is only Pilsner malt (with a little acidulated malt to adjust my mash pH) and dark candi sugar (homemade between 180L and 225L range, smelled delicious like plum/prune reduction). What am I missing by using only pilsner without the addition of pale malt?
Click to expand...

All Pilsner is fine. In fact, that is the recipe I have done the last half dozen times I have brewed this. Candisyrup.com has a single malt recipe on their website: http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_single_malt_040.pdf
 
Nico93 said:
syrup arrived, @CSI the package is a little bit different from the one that i saw on your website, is a new (or old) package or this isn't your candi syrup?

if it's the correct one tomorrow i'm starting with the starter:mug:

if it the real CSI candi and someone need to buy the CSI's syrup in Europe can find it at:
http://www.hobbybrauerversand.de/
very friendly, for shipping outside Germany, Belgium and Holland you can send a mail.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the correct EU export packaging. It is our product.
 
Kee said:
All Pilsner is fine. In fact, that is the recipe I have done the last half dozen times I have brewed this. Candisyrup.com has a single malt recipe on their website: http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_single_malt_040.pdf
Click to expand...

Thank you for talking me back from the cliff. I just pulled the 72 hour gravity sample and I am super excited for this. I've been wrestling for weeks with simple Pilsner/candi syrup vs. Pilsner+specialty malts+sugar to make a good Belgian dark strong. I had bad luck in the past on a BDSA using specialty malts, it was still good and had some of the qualities of a BDSA but it wasn't quite what I expected.

This thread has restored my faith in the simplicity approach to Trappist styles.
 
I'm planning on giving this a try. The plan is to try and combine this with doing a parti-gyle brewing. Second beer is going to be something along the lines of a black IPA. In any event, I'm planning on simple mash in, batch sparge and was wondering what the temps should be for the mash and sparge. Seems like there are a number of different recommendations for this beer.
 
Can't remember but has anyone done this with the Chimay yeast strand ? Wondering how it compares with the wlp530 yeast? Was going to the Monastic yeast from Imperial Organic Yeast. I called and they said it was Chimay.
 
CSI said:
Yes, concur. Always use a blowoff tube and a sterile capture container as well to re-introduce the lost krausen.
Click to expand...

When should I reintroduce the yeas collected from my sterile blow-off container? I have it on the stir plate now - I'm shocked by the amount of yeast that I gathered. When I reintroduce, should I also except additional blow-off activity? I'm at the end of the first week of fermentation activity (i.e., hitting 80 degrees today) - I will be ramping temperatures down next week from 78-60 (secondary fermentation).

Thanks for all of the help.
 
sikkingj said:
When should I reintroduce the yeas collected from my sterile blow-off container? I have it on the stir plate now - I'm shocked by the amount of yeast that I gathered. When I reintroduce, should I also except additional blow-off activity? I'm at the end of the first week of fermentation activity (i.e., hitting 80 degrees today) - I will be ramping temperatures down next week from 78-60 (secondary fermentation).

Thanks for all of the help.
Click to expand...

What is the SG? You may not need the yeast.
 
sikkingj said:
When should I reintroduce the yeas collected from my sterile blow-off container? I have it on the stir plate now - I'm shocked by the amount of yeast that I gathered. When I reintroduce, should I also except additional blow-off activity? I'm at the end of the first week of fermentation activity (i.e., hitting 80 degrees today) - I will be ramping temperatures down next week from 78-60 (secondary fermentation).

Thanks for all of the help.
Click to expand...

Yes, as Kee mentioned above. If you're below 1.015 after 1 week you can save the krausen for another pitch.
 
So I racked this recipe to a keg yesterday and I'm going to try force carbinating it. I could always bottle and prime if it doesn't work. I'm impressed with Wyeast 3787. I put six gallons in a fourteen gallon conical an the krausen still blew out the top with eight gallons of head space.

I picked up two SS Brewtech cronicals recently because better bottle pissed me off so much that I will never do business with them again. In search of better temperature control, I had the idea of using heat tape on the fermenter with a PID controller. The chamber is a chest freezer with an STC 1000 set to 20 degrees below fermentation temp. The krausen is darker in the conical in relation to the heat tape. It wasn't burnt, it cleaned up readily and the sample tasted great. Just an interesting observation. Can't wait to try this in a few months.

Next project is a tig welded krausen capture lid for a mason jar. I'll post pictures when I get it right.

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IMG_6768.jpg
 
ruger988 said:
Short of going to the Abbey yourself you are doing absolutely ZERO to suport the monastery. They never have and never will approve of the distribution of their beer outside the Abbey, especially to America, so anyone selling it over here (or sites like Belgium in a Box) for outrageous money are pocketing 100% of the profits and doing so against the wishes of the Monastery.

Not that its a big deal or most people care, but figured I'd make that point clear.
Click to expand...

I didn't read further in this thread but they actually made it available here in Canada through the LCBO. We ended up buying a 6pack for $75. We opened 2 bottles so far. We open one bottle per year comparing it to similar beers available locally. To be honest. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. I actually prefer Rochefort or a Quebec version called L'assoiffé from Brasseur du Monde.
I really don't see why people are so keen on getting their hands on this stuff.
 
Thanks

Aged 4 months. Definitely keeps getting better the longer it sits.

Planning on hanging onto a few bottles and entering again next year
 
Thank you CSI and everyone else for posting such great information about this recipe! I just brewed this on Oct 11 and I'm super excited to see how it turns out! In my excitement I think I misunderstood the target gravity, though. I hit pre-boil of 1.063 and boiled for 135 min to bring it up to 1.09...without the d-180!! After cooling, I was up to 1.094. I pitched at 70f, holding off on the sugar for 24 hours on the recommendation of my lhbs. Fermentation was roaring at 6 hrs (2 viles wlp530 into 3.8 gal). I added 2 lbs of d-180 the next day and calculated the addition would have brought me up to an OG of 1.113!! What should I have targeted with and without the sugar addition? Weirdly, this was the lower gravity beer of the day compared to a 1.118 OG RIS I brewed in the morning.
 
DogSlobber said:
Thank you CSI and everyone else for posting such great information about this recipe! I just brewed this on Oct 11 and I'm super excited to see how it turns out! In my excitement I think I misunderstood the target gravity, though. I hit pre-boil of 1.063 and boiled for 135 min to bring it up to 1.09...without the d-180!! After cooling, I was up to 1.094. I pitched at 70f, holding off on the sugar for 24 hours on the recommendation of my lhbs. Fermentation was roaring at 6 hrs (2 viles wlp530 into 3.8 gal). I added 2 lbs of d-180 the next day and calculated the addition would have brought me up to an OG of 1.113!! What should I have targeted with and without the sugar addition? Weirdly, this was the lower gravity beer of the day compared to a 1.118 OG RIS I brewed in the morning.
Click to expand...


You could add water to dilute it, maybe a gallon or so to bring you up to 5 gallons.
 
DogSlobber said:
Thank you CSI and everyone else for posting such great information about this recipe! I just brewed this on Oct 11 and I'm super excited to see how it turns out! In my excitement I think I misunderstood the target gravity, though. I hit pre-boil of 1.063 and boiled for 135 min to bring it up to 1.09...without the d-180!! After cooling, I was up to 1.094. I pitched at 70f, holding off on the sugar for 24 hours on the recommendation of my lhbs. Fermentation was roaring at 6 hrs (2 viles wlp530 into 3.8 gal). I added 2 lbs of d-180 the next day and calculated the addition would have brought me up to an OG of 1.113!! What should I have targeted with and without the sugar addition? Weirdly, this was the lower gravity beer of the day compared to a 1.118 OG RIS I brewed in the morning.
Click to expand...


You seem to have scaled the recipe down to 3.8 gallons. If that's what you really wanted in your fermenter, you could have done a few things:

- use less grain next time;

- have a shorter boil - you boiled for 135 mins, while a 90-minute boil should have been OK; the extra boil-off in your case lead to a higher OG.
 
brew_darrymore said:
You seem to have scaled the recipe down to 3.8 gallons. If that's what you really wanted in your fermenter, you could have done a few things:

- use less grain next time;

- have a shorter boil - you boiled for 135 mins, while a 90-minute boil should have been OK; the extra boil-off in your case lead to a higher OG.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I scaled to 3.8 based on the amount of grain I can fit in my mash tun. I targeted 1.09 OG without sugar added because that's what I thought the recipe called for (which was the reason for the ridiculous boil). So what was the actual target original gravity before and after added sugar?

It smells amazing but has a very sharp alcoholic sting. Sampling gravity today indicated 1.014 which would be 14.5% ABV according to the calc. Have any of you ever brewed a beer this strong? Did it ever become drinkable?

I may go ahead with it anyway and re-brew to the right numbers. For science...
 
Yeah, I scaled to 3.8 based on the amount of grain I can fit in my mash tun. I targeted 1.09 OG without sugar added because that's what I thought the recipe called for (which was the reason for the ridiculous boil). So what was the actual target original gravity before and after added sugar?

It smells amazing but has a very sharp alcoholic sting. Sampling gravity today indicated 1.014 which would be 14.5% ABV according to the calc. Have any of you ever brewed a beer this strong? Did it ever become drinkable?

I may go ahead with it anyway and re-brew to the right numbers. For science...
 
DogSlobber said:
Yeah, I scaled to 3.8 based on the amount of grain I can fit in my mash tun. I targeted 1.09 OG without sugar added because that's what I thought the recipe called for (which was the reason for the ridiculous boil). So what was the actual target original gravity before and after added sugar?
Click to expand...

The OG of the wort in fermenter (with added syrup) is supposed to be 1.090 or so (see page 3 of this thread).

Going backwards, you ended up with 3.8 gallons after the boil. According to the recipe, with the syrup added, your OG should have been 1.090. So, you should have ended up with 3.8 gallons x 90 = 342 gravity points. One pack of D-180 adds 32 gravity points. You added two packs, i.e. 2 x 32 = 64 points. That means you should have had 342 - 64 = 278 gravity points before adding the syrup at flameout.

278 points / 3.8 gallons = 73 points, i.e. your post-boil wort gravity before adding the two packs of syrup should have been 1.073 or so.

Use a recipe calculator to adjust the grain bill, so you end up with 3.8 gallons of post-boil wort (90 min. boil) with a SG of 1.073 or so.
 
Great looking recipe!! Would you mind going over the optional steps. Are you stating to add the syrup in the one gallon boil or is the one gallon boil an additional syrup?
 
Ive made 2 attempts at the pious new world recipe of westy 12 and theyve both been disasters(like a weird mixture between a to fresh chimay blue, red wine and a stout with extra off flavors). Im gonn give this one a try now but im still in very much doubt, Ive never tried any beer thats been even remotely close to westy or abt 12 so if this recipe can get me even close to that i would be so thrilled. I mean, there are many belgian quads but I still havent tried any that resembles westy/abt 12. And yes, in my opinion they are very close and I cant decide which one i like more.

I have three questions thou,
1. i cant get a hold of d-180. is brewferm dark candysyrup an ok substitute?
2. How long does it take to boil down wort to make that syrup(it takes like 45 min to make a red wine sauce and thats only like half a bottle of wine)?
3.How come the wort boil down is "optional" if i need both that syrup and the "ordinary" syrup? Or is the wort boil down instead of d-180?

sorry for bad quality pictures but its just to also show how booring my foam head is compared to westys

doubledemon.jpg


westv.jpg
 
rockdemon said:
Ive made 2 attempts at the pious new world recipe of westy 12 and theyve both been disasters(like a weird mixture between a to fresh chimay blue, red wine and a stout with extra off flavors). Im gonn give this one a try now but im still in very much doubt, Ive never tried any beer thats been even remotely close to westy or abt 12 so if this recipe can get me even close to that i would be so thrilled. I mean, there are many belgian quads but I still havent tried any that resembles westy/abt 12. And yes, in my opinion they are very close and I cant decide which one i like more.

I have three questions thou,
1. i cant get a hold of d-180. is brewferm dark candysyrup an ok substitute?
2. How long does it take to boil down wort to make that syrup(it takes like 45 min to make a red wine sauce and thats only like half a bottle of wine)?
3.How come the wort boil down is "optional" if i need both that syrup and the "ordinary" syrup? Or is the wort boil down instead of d-180?

sorry for bad quality pictures but its just to also show how booring my foam head is compared to westys
Click to expand...

1. i cant get a hold of d-180. is brewferm dark candysyrup an ok substitute?
If memory serves, the substitution of the brewferm dark product has been attempted by members of this thread with less than satisfactory results. You can buy D-180 in Holland, Belgium, and Germany. IM me and I can send links to resellers in the EU. Failing this you can order it reasonably from the States.

2. How long does it take to boil down wort to make that syrup(it takes like 45 min to make a red wine sauce and thats only like half a bottle of wine)?
(The wort boil-down idea was introduced by another brewer on another thread. It was to achieve a certain level of maltose caramelization. The caramelization in D-180 satisfies this palate profile so this step is not essential.) That being said, the timing of this boil down is less key than observing the physical properties of the wort when it has completed its boil off. When the wort is boiled to mostly a maltose syrup it will show larger, more persistent bubbles and have less steam rising from the boiling container. (Keeping in mind that at this stage it is very easy to burn maltose).

3.How come the wort boil down is "optional" if i need both that syrup and the "ordinary" syrup? Or is the wort boil down instead of d-180?
The wort boil-down method was introduced as a method to be used in conjunction with candi syrup. Candi Syrup is considered essential in most Belgian Dark Strong ales
 
brewed today!

after 3 hours and a half i can notice pressure in the blow off tube, let you know how is turning out!:mug:
 
Had the real deal last night. This was my third but first since I started trying to clone it. I noticed that the actually westy 12 is not as dark as my clones and I don't think it has that high of carbonation as other belgians
 
Going to try my third attempt soon first is about 6 months in the keg and second around 4 months in the keg both are promising but they didnt attenuate down as much as they should i have tried lowering the mash temp to 148 increased the pitch count and even replaced some pilsner with sucrose still didn't ferment down enough. I have always had this experience with this strain even on tripels now I stick to wlp500 and have zero problems. Does anybody have any tips I can try with my third attempt? Forgot to mention also use pure O2 with a stone this yeast hates ne
 
jtp137 said:
Going to try my third attempt soon first is about 6 months in the keg and second around 4 months in the keg both are promising but they didnt attenuate down as much as they should i have tried lowering the mash temp to 148 increased the pitch count and even replaced some pilsner with sucrose still didn't ferment down enough. I have always had this experience with this strain even on tripels now I stick to wlp500 and have zero problems. Does anybody have any tips I can try with my third attempt? Forgot to mention also use pure O2 with a stone this yeast hates ne
Click to expand...

It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right You didn't mention fermentation temperatures but it's really important to get the temperature up on this yeast. I think that the recipe mentions 78, I would go at least that high.

If you can, use fresh krausen. I finally took CSI's advice and tried this, it really makes a difference.

When I don't have fresh krausen, I sometimes take a freshly cold-crashed starter and step it up and pitch the whole thing at high krausen.

It's usually all about the yeast.
 
Kee said:
It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right You didn't mention fermentation temperatures but it's really important to get the temperature up on this yeast. I think that the recipe mentions 78, I would go at least that high.



If you can, use fresh krausen. I finally took CSI's advice and tried this, it really makes a difference.



When I don't have fresh krausen, I sometimes take a freshly cold-crashed starter and step it up and pitch the whole thing at high krausen.



It's usually all about the yeast.
Click to expand...


I followed the temp ramping schedule posted think pitched 65 raised to 80 over 7 days. I usually make 10 gallon batches so catching fresh krausen may be tough next time may make my starter decant and the day I brew throw in 2L of fresh wort and pitch when I see foam
 
This beer is the best Belgian I have brewed to date. I'm looking forward to it aging for while and entering it into competitions next year. It will be difficult holding on to it for that long but everyone says it gets better. Thanks again CSI for doing the research and posting the recipe.

I just fabricated a stainless krausen capture lid for a mason jar inspired from CSI's capture system. I started a new thread for it so I wouldn't hijack this one. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7185994#post7185994

IMG_6919.jpg
 
Jcpilot said:
This beer is the best Belgian I have brewed to date. I'm looking forward to it aging for while and entering it into competitions next year. It will be difficult holding on to it for that long but everyone says it gets better. Thanks again CSI for doing the research and posting the recipe.

I just fabricated a stainless krausen capture lid for a mason jar inspired from CSI's capture system. I started a new thread for it so I wouldn't hijack this one. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7185994#post7185994
Click to expand...

Very nice looking ale and a very nice krausen capture system!
 

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