Welding questions

[pickles]

Green: those fillets look beautiful! awesome work!

 

[GreenMonti]

Green: those fillets look beautiful! awesome work!

Thank you for the kind words.

 

[jcalisi]

GreenMonti I wish you had welded mine. I'm pretty sure you could have done better after a long night of quality control of your brews than these guys did.

Looks like your very accomplished in your trade.

 

[jcalisi]

Dog House Brew - thanks for the encouragement I may try to polish them first before use.

 

[Hermit]

I am on the west coast. Close to seattle.










NO, I DO NOT WORK FOR BOEING.

I'd be tempted to pay the shipping...... Very nice. A true craftsman.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ohio-Ed : would you mind telling your fellow Ohioan the name location of the welder you found?

Pickles... No problem what so ever, as soon as I find one. As soon as I get the results back I will post it here. I will also tell you the names of the guys that I talked to that either didn't want to try it or I had concerns about their ability (although MY concerns doesn't really mean they couldn't).

 

[Dog House Brew]

Dog House Brew - thanks for the encouragement I may try to polish them first before use.

You can do a little polishing, but the bottom couplings are nearly impossible. That is what got me. I'm not sure why all these welders act affraid of this. If the weld is purged and the setting is correct, the penetration should take care of the inside. I'm always amazed at the welding shop types out there that can't weld. I see it all the time on the job. They send their welder over and they should call them "One who gets metal to stick together".....sort of. Sorry about your experience.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Green: those fillets look beautiful! awesome work!

+1000

GreenMonti... Very, Very NICE!!!

I would be ecstatic if my keg comes back looking half that good.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Called the welder and found out the keg I dropped of was finished.
Went and picked it up... looked it over a bit in his office and thought it looked OK.
I could see it wasn't perfect (no where near GreenMonti's work), but couldn't believe how the pictures turned out:

Outside Coupling 1

Inside Coupling 1

Outside Coupling 2

Inside Coupling 2

WOW!!! The pictures look really bad! (I'm calculating the cost in my head to ship these to GreenMonti!!)
They really don't look as bad as they appear in these pictures in person. In fact I told the welder I'd drop off the other 2 kegs Monday. I think I can probably clean these up quite a bit on the inside but...

BTW... I said earlier I would let you know who welded these...
Warren Welding, Lebanon Ohio

Should I have this guy do the other 2 kegs?


Thanks,
Ed

 

[GreenMonti]

Ed,

Sorry to say but, he didn't have any gas on the back side of those at all. There is no way. What you see on the inside is what is called sugar. That is going to be a real bugger to clean up. Small die grinder or dremel tool with small carbides. A stone will work.

What a Bummer.

The other thing that gives it away is the blueing on the inside of the coupling. That should be clean or a light straw color. There wasn't any gas on those.

 

[GreenMonti]

Now that, that is out. I say no to him doing the others. At least right now. He is going to have to belly up to the bar and get with the program. I would have a talk with him and figure out why he didn't back purge those like he said he would.

It is easy for me to say this cause I am not at his mercy.

I understand what you mean about it not looking that bad. From what I can see, the sugar isn't much wider then the thickness of the coupling. The fact is, it shouldn't be there. Once you clean it up it is ok to use it, if it holds water that is. I would do a leak test on it.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

When I picked up the keg, he said that he hadn't seen it yet... He obviously had someone else do the welding. From what I learned here, when I looked at the inside (kinda dark and no closeup lens), I could see and recognized the "sugaring" and knew it was less than perfect. I asked if he back gassed? He nodded yes. When I left, the plan was that he would do the others and he said he would put it all on one bill and collect next week. I think I may go there Monday and pay him the $35 for this one (I know I could argue about weather I should pay... but that's the way I am, I agreed to pay him, I will pay him. It's a $35 lesson) Anyway, I will take the pictures and show him closeups of how "his" work turned out and give him a chance to explain or make it right.

 

[GreenMonti]

When I picked up the keg, he said that he hadn't seen it yet... He obviously had someone else do the welding. From what I learned here, when I looked at the inside (kinda dark and no closeup lens), I could see and recognized the "sugaring" and knew it was less than perfect. I asked if he back gassed? He nodded yes. When I left, the plan was that he would do the others and he said he would put it all on one bill and collect next week. I think I may go there Monday and pay him the $35 for this one (I know I could argue about weather I should pay... but that's the way I am, I agreed to pay him, I will pay him. It's a $35 lesson) Anyway, I will take the pictures and show him closeups of how "his" work turned out and give him a chance to explain or make it right.

Wow. I would do what you are planning to do also. I would pay to be fair but not without explaination.

They dont have to be perfect. I was just upset for you, when I saw the pics. It all sounded like it would work out. Do you know if he has employes working for him?

 

[Dog House Brew]

Sorry about your work Ed. This is what I was saying. A lot of people say they are welders, but few can weld. By the look of his bead he doesn't do much TIG welding either. You could tell the guy brushed the inside. Whom ever welded it is not a professional. I would pay him and not give him a second chance. Burn me once ok I can do that, burn me twice no way. On the bright side it doesn't render the keg unusable. I had it happen to me and have not had any trouble from my kettle. The one that happened to me was a 15 gallon Polarware Kettle. Ouch! Showed me just because he was a Union Pipe-fitter, didn't mean he was a welder. I'd find another. Sorry!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Wow. I would do what you are planning to do also. I would pay to be fair but not without explaination.

They don't have to be perfect. I was just upset for you, when I saw the pics. It all sounded like it would work out. Do you know if he has employees working for him?

What's bad is, in the office they didn't look that bad to me. I knew they weren't perfect, but didn't realize until the pictures just how bad.

Yes, he has employees. I'm sure that is who did the welding. That's his choice but as far as I'm concerned it's still "his" work. He gets the credit good or bad.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Sorry about your work Ed. This is what I was saying. A lot of people say they are welders, but few can weld. By the look of his bead he doesn't do much TIG welding either. You could tell the guy brushed the inside. Whom ever welded it is not a professional. I would pay him and not give him a second chance. Burn me once ok I can do that, burn me twice no way. On the bright side it doesn't render the keg unusable. I had it happen to me and have not had any trouble from my kettle. The one that happened to me was a 15 gallon Polarware Kettle. Ouch! Showed me just because he was a Union Pipe-fitter, didn't mean he was a welder. I'd find another. Sorry!

Probably 9 months ago, I asked my LHBS if they could recommend a welder and they said not really. I broke my hydrometer, so I stopped in the LHBS yesterday and while there asked the same question... He said, "Yes, we do"!
The guy in the shop at the time is the brother of the owner, but he said the owner has a tig welder and a plasma cutter. He didn't know any details about how or even how much... The LHBS is also an electronics repair shop... more space dedicated to LHBS than electronics. But, I'm thinking... wow, in that time can you really run 2 businesses and become proficient enough in welding to do this?

As I heard this (before I picked up my keg from the welder), I thought "no way". As I think more about it though... if he has spent 9 months welding nothing but kegs, even if not full time...hmm. I don't know if he would do any more damage than the professional welder did? I know the owner fairly well. As I'm thinking about it, I may talk to him, tell him my concern and experience with the other guy and see if he would weld a single coupling into the same keg as a test. I was contemplating another coupling in the MLT for sparge water anyway. I don't want to offend him by suggesting he can't do it, but 9 months ago he told me couldn't.

Ed

 

[RonRock]

I'd ask to see some of his work. He should be proud to show off.

 

[BrewBeemer]

So what do you have around the house or in the future that you think the Diversion would not be able to do?

How thick of material do you think you will be welding?
You have a Thunderbolt 225 to tackle the heavy lifting. About the only thing I don't like about the Diversion aside from features, is the adjustment while welding. I like to have a foot pedal. Always have. The Diversion has what is called a rail torch. You will be controlling the amperage by one of your fingers on the hand holding the torch. Even in the most difficult positions, I have never wanted a rail torch. Just my preference.

Ya got that right, I learned with a foot pedal and can not use a torch slide or wheel worth a damn. Bad part is out of position in a car rool bar or under a aluminum boat hull in the driveway the foot control is a problem then.
My 1992 350 Synchrowave that's fully loades except the spot weld timer has a lot more controls for me to work with vs these newer machines. I was told by Millers Service and Tech Repair a friend works on repairs that Miller was losing the "small home guy" with their higer price machine plus all the added controls. By this they went back and made simple machines the public can understand, look up material type, thickness, set a know and weld. Their sales went up with this introduction of newer simpler machines. Granted I have a limit on my pulsers high frequency vs the newer machines but still long ways off as being a old useless POS machine. Many stainless and custom shops would gladly take my older 350 Sync off my hands. I purchased at the right time, got what I wanted plus it's paid for within the first year of owning it so a freebie bottles included. Now retired on SSD no way could I afford a newe machine how I want it set up and model. Same with the 251 w/30A spoolgun another great purchase. That was a out of pocket of under $300 with a 280 cu/ft bottle and a Speedglas 9000X wide window auto dark hood.
Jobsite copper money got me this welder in 2002 plus the plugs I added free to my LWS shops test station. I got long heavy stinger leads for stick and ground and other items free. Best part my welders look brand new under covers and I can do what I want not relying on someones help.
I would purchase a welder, go to an adult night welding class and learn the proper way as bad habits are hard to break then enjoy your new welder, you'll be glad later and money ahead as it's a lifetime tool.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I called the LHBS and talked to the owner about welding couplings into the kegs. His words... "I can weld it put it won't be pretty". I said thanks, but no thanks.

Ed

 

[wilserbrewer]

silver solder...you could be brewing already Ed.

 

[Hermit]

silver solder...you could be brewing already Ed.

Second time I've seen this mentioned. That I can do, but will it work? I've only done copper for refrigeration lines.

 

[GreenMonti]

Ya got that right, I learned with a foot pedal and can not use a sorch slide or wheel worth a damn. Bad part is out of position in a car rool bar or under a aluminum boat hull in the driveway the foot control is a problem then.

You do at times have to get creative. I still haven't ever wanted to go with a rail.

What's bad is, in the office they didn't look that bad to me. I knew they weren't perfect, but didn't realize until the pictures just how bad.

Yes, he has employees. I'm sure that is who did the welding. That's his choice but as far as I'm concerned it's still "his" work. He gets the credit good or bad.

Ed

I agree, he is the one. If the guy in the back never got the message to gas it, then he is going to do the simplest thing.

Second time I've seen this mentioned. That I can do, but will it work? I've only done copper for refrigeration lines.

If you weny with the silver sloder method, I would use this stuff.
http://www.brazing.com/PDF/Silver Data Sheets/SA_50Ni2 (SilverAlloy A-50Ni2).pdf

 

[RonRock]

Silver Solder may be a good option for you. One thing about solder that I've found, you will need a good tight fit. From my experience the solider will not bridge a gap like you can with weld. I'd say if you have done refrigeration lines you have a good idea of the process and ability needed to "Get-R-Dun"

You get your kegs done and look for that deal on the right TIG machine.

At least something to consider.


Might work for the OP also.

 

[Hermit]

If you weny with the silver sloder method, I would use this stuff.
http://www.brazing.com/PDF/Silver%20Data%20Sheets/SA_50Ni2%20(SilverAlloy%20A-50Ni2).pdf

Thanks, saved off the pdf to the appropriate folder.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

silver solder...you could be brewing already Ed.

This isn't keeping me from brewing
This is a second system I'm working on... I can still brew on my original equipment.

I have a map gas torch but I don't know how "strong" soldered couplings are. I wanted welded because of the solid feel. For the heat elements, I'm planning to install 2" couplings and I don't know if silver solder would do the job.

I have a couple more options locally that I'll check out.

My 5500 watt heating elements were delivered yesterday and will result in a bit more work for me. The 2" couplings that I want to mount them in are too long, so I'm gonna have to cut them down.

I have in-laws in town this weekend and I'm out of town most of next week, so other than some phone calls, I'm not sure how much progress I'll make. I was hopping I would be able to drop the kegs off next week and pick them up when I get back... Oh well.

 

[Hermit]

This isn't keeping me from brewing
This is a second system I'm working on... I can still brew on my original equipment.

I have a map gas torch but I don't know how "strong" soldered couplings are. I wanted welded because of the solid feel. For the heat elements, I'm planning to install 2" couplings and I don't know if silver solder would do the job.

I have a couple more options locally that I'll check out.

My 5500 watt heating elements were delivered yesterday and will result in a bit more work for me. The 2" couplings that I want to mount them in are too long, so I'm gonna have to cut them down.

I have in-laws in town this weekend and I'm out of town most of next week, so other than some phone calls, I'm not sure how much progress I'll make. I was hopping I would be able to drop the kegs off next week and pick them up when I get back... Oh well.

Strength shouldn't be the issue since these aren't 'structural'. As stated earlier, if they are tightly fitted to start with then there won't be much stress on them anyhow. An added benefit is that if the recommended stuff flows like the stuff I am used to, it will fill in very nicely and depending on work area, you could even put it on the inside to make sure there are no openings for wort to turn rancid in.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Yea agreed Ed, nothing better than a good weld. The siver solder technique linked earlier showed a male fitting threaded into a tapped hole in the keg. The solder just seals it up and holds the shoulder of the fitting. Yea, sorry, I haven't seen anyone solder element fittings, thought you were doing standard 1/2" stuff?

Good luck w/ the project.

 

[GreenMonti]

This isn't keeping me from brewing
This is a second system I'm working on... I can still brew on my original equipment.

I have a map gas torch but I don't know how "strong" soldered couplings are. I wanted welded because of the solid feel. For the heat elements, I'm planning to install 2" couplings and I don't know if silver solder would do the job.

I have a couple more options locally that I'll check out.

My 5500 watt heating elements were delivered yesterday and will result in a bit more work for me. The 2" couplings that I want to mount them in are too long, so I'm gonna have to cut them down.

I have in-laws in town this weekend and I'm out of town most of next week, so other than some phone calls, I'm not sure how much progress I'll make. I was hopping I would be able to drop the kegs off next week and pick them up when I get back... Oh well.

I am sure you want to check out all your local options, but I will throw this out to you. A few have mentioned shipping costs to me. I will do the work for you guys if you would like me too. I have no clue what shipping charges cost so I can't imagine what it does to the total cost of your builds. PM me if your interested. Or time frame for that matter. I would imagine 5-7 days travel time both ways.

Strength shouldn't be the issue since these aren't 'structural'. As stated earlier, if they are tightly fitted to start with then there won't be much stress on them anyhow. An added benefit is that if the recommended stuff flows like the stuff I am used to, it will fill in very nicely and depending on work area, you could even put it on the inside to make sure there are no openings for wort to turn rancid in.

I don't have any first hand knowledge of silver solder. I have done brazing but no silver solder. I would imagine it is strong however, what about repeated heating and cooling? Also the weight of the plumbing and the vibration (frequency) that the pump puts out? Can you say what the life expectancy is? Any brazing we do at work is even backed up by tack welds.

In Palmers book, he gives silver solder a 90% usage with TIG taking the other 10%. He mentions using TIG to do the couplers and silver solder for the rest. Again I have no first hand knowledge of the material. I just know different grades melt at different temps.

Oh yea, What wort will turn rancid? It is either boiling or the kettle is sitting clean. Or it should be.LOL.

 

[Swagman]

Myself I tig all my couplers and a few for local brewers. I have used silver solder over the years mainly on SS gas tanks for the fitting for gas line and return lines. It is strong enough for about all applications. I use silver brite brand and acid. It melts about 400 degrees so it don't take much of a heat source. I use a 200 watt soldering iron gives better control of soldering and makes a neater job.

Finding a good welder is not that hard. Finding a fair price is another matter. Try you local speed shop and ask about welding there. I furnish the coupler and turn down half the length on the lathe for a 1 inch hole drill the hole, Back flow the weld and charge 12.00. Being retire and having the equipment I like to help where I can.

If your close to the shed stop in always something on Tap

My four cents

Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Myself I tig all my couplers and a few for local brewers. I have used silver solder over the years mainly on SS gas tanks for the fitting for gas line and return lines. It is strong enough for about all applications. I use silver brite brand and acid. It melts about 400 degrees so it don't take much of a heat source. I use a 200 watt soldering iron gives better control of soldering and makes a neater job.

Finding a good welder is not that hard. Finding a fair price is another matter. Try you local speed shop and ask about welding there. I furnish the coupler and turn down half the length on the lathe for a 1 inch hole drill the hole, Back flow the weld and charge 12.00. Being retire and having the equipment I like to help where I can.

If your close to the shed stop in always something on Tap

My four cents

Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

Swagman... Welcome back to this thread. Your description of prepping a coupling and hole are what caused me to do the same with the first coupling I did.

I'm doing something that I have not seen before in that I'd like to install 2" couplings for the heating elements. I'll then mount the elements in a 2x1 bushing. I'm going this way because I'd like to mount a box to the bushing and still be able to remove it.

I have never used silver solder... would you trust it to hold a 2" SS coupling in a keg? The coupling its self must weigh 1/2 pound plus the element, box etc.

Ed

 

[Swagman]

Swagman... Welcome back to this thread. Your description of prepping a coupling and hole are what caused me to do the same with the first coupling I did.

I'm doing something that I have not seen before in that I'd like to install 2" couplings for the heating elements. I'll then mount the elements in a 2x1 bushing. I'm going this way because I'd like to mount a box to the bushing and still be able to remove it.

I have never used silver solder... would you trust it to hold a 2" SS coupling in a keg? The coupling its self must weigh 1/2 pound plus the element, box etc.

Ed

Ed
What I do for elements is a 1 inch 1/2 coupler and use an outside box and drill a large enough hole to fit over the coupler and element. I drill two holes also for mounting bolts mark the keg and Tig weld two bolts to the keg. Place over coupler and bolt to keg when wired a cover and gasket that fits the box.

Silver solder would work for the coupler but I prefer the Tig. But care will be need in the application of the solder. I would tig.

These outside box's are sold a most hardware store they also have threads for using electric fittings to run the wires into the box they are about 3 1/2 x 4 1/2 and the cover comes with a gasket for water tight fitting.


Hope this helps

Here a picture and not very detailed for the electric box is sealed up foil tape
Just got carried away with the tape lol. Really not needed.


Dominus Vobiscum

Swagman

PS I also turn the 1 inch 1/2 coupler down to fit a standard hole size.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Here is a few pictures of the RIMS Heater I built. This is based on the one by Sawdustguy. I did the electrical connection based on what I saw from Kal.

There is a silicon o-ring and a SS washer between the box cover and the bushing on the heater. What I like about this is that the o-ring is thicker than the washer but fits inside the id of the washer. With the 2" bushing, there is enough flat area that I can tighten it down until the cover/washer/bushing make secure contact and the o-ring makes a nice seal. I'm thinking of drilling and tapping a couple small holes through the cover into the bushing to keep the box from twisting at all.

I'd like to do something similar for the kegs. The idea is that if I want to use propane, I can remove the heating element by removing the 2" bushing and insert a 2" plug.

Ed

 

[samc]

Here is a few pictures of the RIMS Heater I built. This is based on the one by Sawdustguy. I did the electrical connection based on what I saw from Kal.

There is a silicon o-ring and a SS washer between the box cover and the bushing on the heater. What I like about this is that the o-ring is thicker than the washer but fits inside the id of the washer. With the 2" bushing, there is enough flat area that I can tighten it down until the cover/washer/bushing make secure contact and the o-ring makes a nice seal. I'm thinking of drilling and tapping a couple small holes through the cover into the bushing to keep the box from twisting at all.

I'd like to do something similar for the kegs. The idea is that if I want to use propane, I can remove the heating element by removing the 2" bushing and insert a 2" plug.

Ed

Nice work - I am officially pissed off that I did not do that to mine.

 

[GreenMonti]

Ed,

That RIMS looks great. Nice work. Looks very clean.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Here is a few pictures of the RIMS Heater I built. This is based on the one by Sawdustguy. I did the electrical connection based on what I saw from Kal.

There is a silicon o-ring and a SS washer between the box cover and the bushing on the heater. What I like about this is that the o-ring is thicker than the washer but fits inside the id of the washer. With the 2" bushing, there is enough flat area that I can tighten it down until the cover/washer/bushing make secure contact and the o-ring makes a nice seal. I'm thinking of drilling and tapping a couple small holes through the cover into the bushing to keep the box from twisting at all.

I'd like to do something similar for the kegs. The idea is that if I want to use propane, I can remove the heating element by removing the 2" bushing and insert a 2" plug.

Ed

Very nice Ed, glad to see a brewer that knows what a CGB is and uses one instead of a romex connector. BTW, super clean unit you built.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Thanks for the comment on the RIMs heater. Credit goes to Sawdustguy and Kal. I just combined their designs. The box is a bit more work, but I like that it is serviceable.

For the 5500 watt elements I have for the BK and HLT, I plan to use double boxes to make more room for the heavier wire.

Ed

 

[jcalisi]

so this is what I got for $135. The best I can tell is they didn't even use back gas on some of them. Also, looks like they got into some of the treads as well...

so I take these back and complain or just be glad that they are not worse?

 

[Dog House Brew]

$135 for how many?

 

[jcalisi]

Nine in total.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I was thinking grind the coupling flush inside to the kegs then tig those gaps closed on the inside for a clean smooth finish. Your external welds and area will turn straw yellow, brown and blue but easy to resand bright stainless again when done. The threads I would run a tap thru as the cooling alone will have shrunk the couplings at the welds inside, this may cause a threading problem on your pickup tubes. Take it for it's worth, this is what I would do to correct it or live with it. JMOs here.