I think that dark beers are pretty much covering up almost everything, so it's hard to detect some off flavours in them. But on the other hand, s04 is also my personal favourite for dark beers
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If you two were to take a stab at an explanation of what I just witnessed, what would your best theory be?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Assuming that in a lifetime of drinking cask beer, most of it has been in spec per Murphy's ("The acceptable range of pH for cask conditioned beers is 3·7 – 4·1 units") then I'd disagree.
However, having seen how even illustrious US commercial brewers abuse their English styles with inappropriate cellarmanship, I do wonder whether part of it is either how people are kegging S-04 beers, or how it responds to particular carbonation regimes. IME it's fairly common for British styles (particularly weaker ones - mild & bitter) made commercially in the US to have a definite bite from carbonic acid due to overcarbonation in kegging, so I wonder if part of it is that.
In the UK, low ABV traditional British styles are rarely served from keg, other than a handful of macro brands that are optimised for serving with 70:30 nitrogen:CO2 "Guinness gas" or a similar blend. You don't use 100% CO2.
Might be something there as I only carbonate my stout to 1.2 volumes before eventually putting it on 70/30 beer gas...
Cheers!
Cheers!
I've been tasting them all flat, and continuously as they carb. Until this past year, 90% of my brewing was English ale served at about 1.2 volumes.
I did these last few brews in an attempt to isolate the process variable that separates the "S-04 won't make a good beer" people from the "I can't understand why people don't love S-04" people. The assumption that led me to do it is that both groups are being honest about their experiences and the mode of communication (forum posts) has made it difficult to put a finger on what's different.
I'm really interested in the imperial stout with RO data point. I think that might actually support my hypothesis, depending on the particulars. @day_trippr would you be willing to post the recipe and water volumes so I can plug into the spreadsheet I've been using?
I did these last few brews in an attempt to isolate the process variable that separates the "S-04 won't make a good beer" people from the "I can't understand why people don't love S-04" people. The assumption that led me to do it is that both groups are being honest about their experiences and the mode of communication (forum posts) has made it difficult to put a finger on what's different.
I'm really interested in the imperial stout with RO data point. I think that might actually support my hypothesis, depending on the particulars. @day_trippr would you be willing to post the recipe and water volumes so I can plug into the spreadsheet I've been using?
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
I'm not being hardheaded here, by the way. I live in a hot, hot place with no local home brew shop. I'm on a desperate search for a dry yeast that will make a decent English ale.
Sure! Here's the recipe. The actual liquor volumes used are 12.75g Strike, and 5.78g Sparge - out of 11 gallons in the HLT (needed to cover the hex).
[edit] fwiw, I actually use four S04 packs...
Cheers!
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Since you live in a hot place, what temperature are you fermenting at?
I've used S-04 a lot and while it can work out on the dry side, and perhaps slightly tangy compared to US-05, acidity has not been a problem with the (mostly light) ales I brew with it. I've found running fermentation temp in the 64-68F range produces the best results with this yeast.
I read though most of this thread, but it is late, if I missed your temp control description, my apologies.
There's no making beer here without some kind of temp control. I have gotten good results from S-04 at 65-71, and the twang at those temps as well. It foams like crazy over about 69. I have not gotten it high enough to make fusels.
This one, as a full volume mash, in the Bru'n water spreadsheet, has a predicted pH of between 5.0 and 5.1, just like my twangy beers. It is a very different recipe, but it is a datapoint contrary to my recent result nonetheless. And man, is it a big old hog...
I am still convinced the apple-y tangy flavor was acetaldehyde from the yeast flocculating too early and not cleaning it up, not acIdity.
How could you test this hypothesis?
To me, acetaldehyde seems to play a role, but I have never been unable to get acetaldehyde to go away with some combination of time, temp, and rousing, (and I have only ever used the fastest, most flocculant ale stains available), EXCEPT in the S-04 beers I've done WITH acidic water. Which indicates that there must be another factor at work.
FWIW, my beer where the twang went away was a dark mild with a mash pH of 5.5 (according to Bru'n Water).
I am drinking a beer right now that was brewed with S-04 that does not have the twang. It has .25lb of debittered black in 6.5 gallons (brown but not super dark--definitely not roasty), and fermentation didn't get over 65 degrees (beer temp). The interesting thing is that the flavor of the twangy beer is very much present, but without the twang. When I bring the glass to my mouth I smell raw biscuit dough as plain as day and automatically brace for disappointment that doesn't come. The beer is lovely. On the other hand, in the previous batch (dry stout, also with no twang) no yeast flavors at all are really detectable under the roast.
I am more convinced that the S-04 twang is due to low pH or presence of excess acid in the finished beer, combined with the "normal" esters the yeast produces.
I have been poking around on the internet and apparently production of acid is a precursor to esters in some English yeasts and S-04 is know to be particularly prone to making detectable amounts. On the other hand, there are many reports of people fermenting plenty warm and not experiencing the twang.
Also, I realized that I had been brewing with liquor too low in alkalinity to keep pH from falling significantly at the end of the mash, and basically devoid of buffering power. Fixing this issue coincided with my S-04 beers losing the twang (this is what I first posted about in this thread), but at the same time I started adding a little dark malt and keeping fermentation temps down to 65. Inconclusive.
I am currently trying out a few other dry yeast alternatives for English ales, but I may come back to this at some point and try to work the answer all the way out, or I might give up on S-04 entirely. Hopefully another brewer will definitively crack the nut between now and then. For now, my best answer to the question that stated this thread "ways to lower S-04 acidity?" is "add a quarter pound of black malt, back off on the calcium in the mash, and ferment below 66 degrees."
I am more convinced that the S-04 twang is due to low pH or presence of excess acid in the finished beer, combined with the "normal" esters the yeast produces.
I have been poking around on the internet and apparently production of acid is a precursor to esters in some English yeasts and S-04 is know to be particularly prone to making detectable amounts. On the other hand, there are many reports of people fermenting plenty warm and not experiencing the twang.
Also, I realized that I had been brewing with liquor too low in alkalinity to keep pH from falling significantly at the end of the mash, and basically devoid of buffering power. Fixing this issue coincided with my S-04 beers losing the twang (this is what I first posted about in this thread), but at the same time I started adding a little dark malt and keeping fermentation temps down to 65. Inconclusive.
I am currently trying out a few other dry yeast alternatives for English ales, but I may come back to this at some point and try to work the answer all the way out, or I might give up on S-04 entirely. Hopefully another brewer will definitively crack the nut between now and then. For now, my best answer to the question that stated this thread "ways to lower S-04 acidity?" is "add a quarter pound of black malt, back off on the calcium in the mash, and ferment below 66 degrees."
S-04 doesn't taste acidic to me. I'll get more info soon, as I just started two more batches with it yesterday (a split wort SMASH experiment, same yeast, but two different hops added only in whirlpool). Should be interesting. One is not fermenting yet and the other is just now showing signs. S-04 is usually fast but I did underpitch a bit this time.
