Way too much smoke! What did I do wrong?

[Tegra]

Hello:

Brewed this a while back as an extract using this recipe....

Shirley's Nutbrown Ale - O.G. - 1.050
8 lb pale malt extract
8 oz British crystal malt
8 oz chocolate malt
2 oz roast barley
8 oz wheat
6.3 AAU Goldings
.4 oz Goldings (finishing)
Nottingham ale yeast

Turned out good but without a whole lot of taste...

Just brewed the same in a 8 gallon all grain batch....

Shirley's Nutbrown Ale - O.G. - 1.050
14.75 lb pale malt extract
11.8 oz British crystal malt (70L)
11.8 oz chocolate malt
3 oz roast barley
11.8 oz wheat
1.7 oz Goldings
.59 oz Goldings (finishing)
Nottingham ale yeast

This time it was liquid smoke, smelling and tasting like a campfire.
It has mellowed over the last 8 weeks but is still prominently smoky, such that only the hearty will dare try it.

Was it a mistake to proportionately scale up the chocolate?
(or is there a typo in the recipe that my supplier manually corrected when mixing my grains the first time?)

I have certainly made a unique beer but I would like to know what I did wrong.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[QuercusMax]

I wouldn't expect to get any "smoke" from that recipe at all.

Did you measure your own grains? Is it possible that some type of smoked malt could have been substituted somewhere along the line? I'm thinking maybe the crystal or wheat malt may have been swapped for Rauchmalt or Cherry-smoked malt?

 

[insanim8er]

I guess it factors down to what you're calling "smoked flavor." Is it burnt tasting? Too roasted like black coffee?

I use 12oz chocolate with 1LB roasted barley in a milk stout (5 gal recipe) that is absolutely smooth and amazing, so I'm sure something else is the case... Did you burn it?

 

[kh54s10]

Hello:

Brewed this a while back as an extract using this recipe....

Shirley's Nutbrown Ale - O.G. - 1.050
8 lb pale malt extract
8 oz British crystal malt
8 oz chocolate malt
2 oz roast barley
8 oz wheat
6.3 AAU Goldings
.4 oz Goldings (finishing)
Nottingham ale yeast

Turned out good but without a whole lot of taste...

Just brewed the same in a 8 gallon all grain batch....

Shirley's Nutbrown Ale - O.G. - 1.050
14.75 lb pale malt extract
11.8 oz British crystal malt (70L)
11.8 oz chocolate malt
3 oz roast barley
11.8 oz wheat
1.7 oz Goldings
.59 oz Goldings (finishing)
Nottingham ale yeast

This time it was liquid smoke, smelling and tasting like a campfire.
It has mellowed over the last 8 weeks but is still prominently smoky, such that only the hearty will dare try it.

Was it a mistake to proportionately scale up the chocolate?
(or is there a typo in the recipe that my supplier manually corrected when mixing my grains the first time?)

I have certainly made a unique beer but I would like to know what I did wrong.

Thanks,
Tom

I don't see anything "smokey" in this recipe. Maybe a very little bit high on the darker malts but it should not be smokey.

 

[brewbama]

is it possible that some type of smoked malt could have been substituted somewhere along the line? I'm thinking maybe the crystal or wheat malt may have been swapped for rauchmalt or cherry-smoked malt?

+1

 

[hunter_le five]

Does it taste "roasty" like strong coffee, or "smokey" like BBQ, or "peaty" like scotch?

I'm with the others, I don't see anything that seems like it would cause "smokey" flavors, unless the HBS botched the grain bill.


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[Paps]

I use 12oz chocolate with 1LB roasted barley in a milk stout (5 gal recipe)

Holy F'king sheepsh't batman!

i like the darker styles but i'll admit i have a bit of a hard time with the stout that i used 8 oz each of chocolate malt/raosted barley/carapils......i can only imagine how your stout hits the pallete......how long are you mellowing that before you drink it?

 

[blueseamonkey]

I agree with all those posting above that nothing you've listed should actually taste of smoke - the chocolate malt may make it taste a bit burnt though.

If there is too much burnt flavour to enjoy the beer, try blending it in with something lighter. A nice simple SMASH ale would work well - or if you have something already brewed to hand, try combining them in a glass first to get the perfect ratio that matches your taste. Then you have the option of either mixing the whole batch and rebottling (assuming you are using bottles) OR simply offering a bottle of the lighter beer alongside this one to everyone who drinks it.

I brewed a very smokey brown ale, using a high proportion of smoked malt, which had really interesting flavours, but far too overpowering in the original form than I (or anyone else) liked. Blended 50/50 with a fairly basic pale ale it was delicious though.

 

[Tegra]

Thanks! (Good sanity check)

I am trying to convince everyone it is a "strong coffee" taste but everyone says "smoke" right away.

I will go through what I have in "stock" and taste each grain to make sure.
The coffee has the strongest "burnt" taste, more than the roast barley.

I imagine the smoked malt would be very dark? Not sure how I would know if I have the wrong grain, unless I reorder it from another supplier and see if it matches?

Tom

 

[insanim8er]

Smoked malt isn't necessarily dark. It's just flavorful from the smoke.

 

[blueseamonkey]

Smoked malt is easier to tell by smell than taste, though you should be able to taste the smokiness too. As soon as you open up the container it is stored in, it should smell strongly of woodsmoke. If not, its probably not smoked malt.

 

[QuercusMax]

The smoked malts I've used have been about the color of Vienna.

 

[SpeedYellow]

There's no smoked malts, so "smoky" is simply an inappropriate descriptor. The only way this could be smoky from the small amount of malt you used would be if you accidentally used peat-smoked malt. You certainly would have smelled that in the mash/brewpot because that stuff is strong!

What you're tasting is "roast" flavors. Like coffee.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks! (Good sanity check)

I am trying to convince everyone it is a "strong coffee" taste but everyone says "smoke" right away.

I will go through what I have in "stock" and taste each grain to make sure.
The coffee has the strongest "burnt" taste, more than the roast barley.

I imagine the smoked malt would be very dark? Not sure how I would know if I have the wrong grain, unless I reorder it from another supplier and see if it matches?

Tom

Did you by chance burn the wort on the bottom or something? If not, and it's definitely smoky, then it sounds like contamination. Some phenols created by bacteria are distinctly smoky smelling and flavored.

 

[Tegra]

Thanks!

This was my first batch on my "double size" setup and I recall I added too much water and had to boil extra long to get my volumes down.

I have an internal electric element but have heard that during the boil there is rarely a scorching problem. The burning can happen just before boil when there is little movement of the wort around the element and it can remain in place long enough to get scorched.

I have made a couple lighter batches since without issue, but it may be the darker wort being more sensitive to scorching?

I have a higher surface area heater on my shopping list, but maybe I should make sure the batch is stirred until it reaches boil? (Autostir anyone?)

Tom


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[insanim8er]

Ya, burning it makes a lot of sense to me.

I once had a burrito at a "fast food" mexican place I always go to. I SWORE they put cigarettes in the beans. God they tasted just like cigarette ashes. But they burnt the bottom of the pot of beans... So I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

 

[wingedcoyote]

I actually do get "smokey" from a lot of (commercial) beers with large amounts of black malt / roasted barley / etc. Maybe I'm crazy, there's just something in there that tastes like BBQ to me.

But that's just my palate. OP, if you've had beers like Old Rasputin or other RISes and didn't get the heavy smoke thing you're describing, it probably is kettle scorching.

 

[insanim8er]

I actually do get "smokey" from a lot of (commercial) beers with large amounts of black malt / roasted barley / etc. Maybe I'm crazy, there's just something in there that tastes like BBQ to me.

But that's just my palate. OP, if you've had beers like Old Rasputin or other RISes and didn't get the heavy smoke thing you're describing, it probably is kettle scorching.

It's not crazy to describe that roast/burnt flavor as "smokey", but smokey and roasted are different.

Roasted is more of that burnt charred flavor. Camp fires often burn stuff WHILE they smoke, so I can see how people describe it synonymously.

Think about it like this: Liquid smoke doesn't taste like black coffee.

But liquid smoke gives you the flavor profile of SMOKED (and to me is no where the same as coffee) while a dark black coffee gives you the profile of ROASTED (but it's no where near the same as liquid smoke)

 

[SpeedYellow]

I actually do get "smokey" from a lot of (commercial) beers with large amounts of black malt / roasted barley / etc. Maybe I'm crazy, there's just something in there that tastes like BBQ to me.
...

Nah, you're not crazy, you're just inexperienced. Try some rauchbiers like Schlenkerla when you get a chance, and you'll understand how "smoke" is entirely different than "roast." They're just completely different flavors. You can have roasty without smoky (e.g. stout, porter) or smoky without roasty (e.g. Grodziskie, Schlenkerla Maerzen, etc.).

 

[dobe12]

Nah, you're not crazy, you're just inexperienced. Try some rauchbiers like Schlenkerla when you get a chance, and you'll understand how "smoke" is entirely different than "roast." They're just completely different flavors. You can have roasty without smoky (e.g. stout, porter) or smoky without roasty (e.g. Grodziskie, Schlenkerla Maerzen, etc.).

+1 to this. For me, smoked malt flavor is WAY different than roast flavors that you'd get from roast malt, chocolate malt, etc. I have a crazy low tolerance for smoked beers. A lb of so in a 5 gallon batch is almost too much. I can't get a rauchbier within 6 inches of my nose/mouth without wanting to dump it.

Now big RIS's, dry stouts, etc.... the roastier, the bigger, the better!

But all palettes are different. I have a high tolerance for Rye. Anything less than 15% or so and I really can't taste it. I like to use 20-50% depending on the beer. Others would say that's WAY too much.

 

[wingedcoyote]

Nah, you're not crazy, you're just inexperienced. Try some rauchbiers like Schlenkerla when you get a chance, and you'll understand how "smoke" is entirely different than "roast." They're just completely different flavors. You can have roasty without smoky (e.g. stout, porter) or smoky without roasty (e.g. Grodziskie, Schlenkerla Maerzen, etc.).

Actually I love Schlenkerla and am well acquainted with the rauchmalz flavor. Certainly it's different from the flavor note that I'm describing -- I often describe it as "campfire" or "lapsang souchong tea" and there's none of that in typical roasty stouts. But what I'm describing isn't just "roasted" in the black coffee sense either, at least not to me (I also drink black coffee every day, for the record). It honestly reminds me of pit BBQ. Perhaps it's a combination of roastiness with the "meatiness" of melanoidins? But this is all just my individual pallet, and they're all different. Anyway it's not especially relevant to the thread.

 

[Tegra]

Thanks for all the insight. (I will try to taste some extreme beers to get an idea of the difference between roasted and smoke)

I think we have narrowed it down to the electric element. It is about 150W per inch and I am told that with a darker beer, especially with wheat, there is a greater chance of scorching.

I am upgrading to an element with 50% more power (pushing my 15A circuit into the edge of overload) but with only about 60W per inch full power and about 40W at anticipated running speed.

I think this should get rid of my issue and give be a more uniform boil.

Thanks for the discussion on the "benefits of smoking"!

Tom

 

[captgus]

Could the smokiness be a phenol? What was your fermentation like?

 

[Tegra]

Using Nottingham, at about 18 degrees (65F) for the first 10 days and then 23 (73) for a few and then drop to just above freezing to clear. Used pressure fermentation, starting at about 3psi and then slowing climbing after the major ferment is done.

Tom