Washing Yeast vs Pitching Trub?

[user 338926]

Please let us know whether the 400 micron does the trick or if you decide something finer is required. I would really like to go this way rather than wasting 1/2-1 gallon of beer after fermentation.

I see people say Amazon is slow lately, not that I'd know as I rarely order there. But they certainly won't be here for this weekends brew, so next weekend. But then I have to help a friend who just got a brewing kit and wants to start brewing. So it might be the week following, unless I take it along to his house and do his brew. That scares me due to "experimenting" on his very first ever batch... I might not be a hero if his beer foams out of the keg and bottles! Lol.

(I'm supplying a mini keg and he's gong to bottle half of it to learn how both work)

 

[redrocker652002]

I am wondering if those bucket strainers will work on my NB bucket. I think it is a 6.5 gallon so it might be a bit wider. I was thinking of just getting a big strainer and holding it under the valve on my boil kettle and stopping the flow as I needed to empty the strainer. I don't usually wait very long once the wort hits pitching temp to move it to the bucket. Maybe I should wait a bit longer? My kettle has a bazooka screen that seems to catch a lot of the stuff, but I was thinking a strainer of some sort could be a nice addition. Either way, this is a good read. I am going to continue to watch this thread to see where it goes. Rock On!!!!!!!!!

 

[faithie999]

I am wondering if those bucket strainers will work on my NB bucket. I think it is a 6.5 gallon so it might be a bit wider. I was thinking of just getting a big strainer and holding it under the valve on my boil kettle and stopping the flow as I needed to empty the strainer. I don't usually wait very long once the wort hits pitching temp to move it to the bucket. Maybe I should wait a bit longer? My kettle has a bazooka screen that seems to catch a lot of the stuff, but I was thinking a strainer of some sort could be a nice addition. Either way, this is a good read. I am going to continue to watch this thread to see where it goes. Rock On!!!!!!!!!

in my experience, the 6, 6.5, and 7 gallon brew buckets all use the same lid as the 5 gal, hence the same diameter at the top. they are just taller.

 

[faithie999]

I just moved a big mouth bubbler to a keg last night. I got 2 half pint jars and one pint of trub saved. There was a little more, let's call it 2/3 of a pint. So, not a half gallon. Then there was the beer on top of that which I was unwilling to try to siphon/rack to the keg. Even if I say 3 qts for a 5 gallon batch, that's a lot. And this was a batch that because I fermented in glass in less than 100% darkness, had large chunks of yeast/protein still. So I'd say 50% more beer lost than I would normally have, and I was still under 3 quarts (liters) of 'loss'. That batch had 0% effort to remove any solids from the kettle. 100% of the wort went into the 2 BMBs.

I've had the same beer lose probably not more than 16oz of beer because the yeast cake was so flat and solid. It could siphon perfectly without picking up a thing. Every batch done in my SS conical since I got back to brewing, has either gone down the drain or is still sitting in it.

sorry, I was imprecise in my wording. what I should have said was "wort" not "beer". yes, the trub is nicely compacted in my fermenter, but I was referring to the slurry at the bottom of the kettle. I usually wait an hour or two after the last whirlpooling so as to let the trub settle, but still not very compacted. yes, I could increase my ingredients by 10% or so to account for the loss in the kettle but I'm cheap! (plus for some recipes I am maxed out in the mash tun)

 

[odie]

I could increase my ingredients by 10% or so to account for the loss in the kettle but I'm cheap! (plus for some recipes I am maxed out in the mash tun)

I'm actually cutting recipes by 10% or more and still beating the recipe OG numbers and getting a full 5 gallons of beer at the end.

a lot of that is cause by using the bucket strainer, all the wort gets to the fermenter and no trub.

A lot of recipes seem to be for 6ish gallons cause you are going to leave that last gallon in the bottom of the kettle with all the trub.

 

[Spivey24]

I don’t think yeast rinsing is even possible once everything is mixed up. You won’t magically separate the healthy yeast from the trub and dead yeast by any means most of us can do at home. I’ve been experimenting on yeast that I would otherwise throw out. I’ve had some results with taking the fermenter leftovers and throwing it in a starter, then decanting once the yeast are active and in suspension. Also if I am very careful, I can slide some of the top layer of yeast in the fermenter off the bottom layer of trub but this doesn’t work with all yeasts.

 

[mac_1103]

You won’t magically separate the healthy yeast from the trub and dead yeast by any means most of us can do at home.

True, but I think the only thing he wants to do is separate the yeast from the last beer he fermented with it so he doesn't carry over flavors to the next beer. the trub might still carry over some of those flavors, but presumably less than a half a gallon of the last beer would.

 

[Yesfan]

^^^^THIS^^^^

We always run the wort through a hop strainer bag out of the boil kettle. It collects all of that crap you no not want in your beer and yeast.

I have a few various sized bags, how big of a bag do you need for a 5 gallon batch? I know it will depend (pilsner vs neipa), but a roundabout figure?

I used to recirculate my wert through my hop spider when chilling. Truth be told, I doubt it was doing anything. The last batch I had some success whirlpooling to make a hop cone. It wasn't as tight as some of the ones I've seen posted here though.

Too bad there's not a floating diptube one could use in a boil kettle.....

 

[user 338926]

@faithie999 I don't put loose hops in my kettle. Only in bags. Unless one of those bags breaks open for some reason, I do not have enough solids in the kettle for me to care about. Literally 100% of what is in the kettle goes in the fermenter. I am going to try this filtering thing, but I know that I'll be trying to filter some seriously fine stuff. Not things that I think would bother me in the yeast cake, but I guess I will find out after my bucket filters arrive and I get to try them.

True, but I think the only thing he wants to do is separate the yeast from the last beer he fermented with it so he doesn't carry over flavors to the next beer. the trub might still carry over some of those flavors, but presumably less than a half a gallon of the last beer would.

That's pretty much the gist of it. And really the main reason I considered even trying it with the particular batch I have, was that if it works with this, I could do it with anything. If the whole process fails, I'm out the cost of half a gallon of distilled water.

The video I watched which they termed yeast washing, was as pointed out above actually rinsing. The process was to mix the trub with water and agitate it considerably. Then let the solids settle out over a few minutes. Then pour the rest of the water in a new container and let it stratify overnight. Now pour the water off the top and what you're left with is predominantly yeast. That was the premise anyway. If the entire idea is flawed, I'm happy to learn something new.

It's more or less similar to what tried years ago using water I boiled and then cooled again. Perhaps this is another process like racking to a secondary, which I have heard recommended since I was a kid , but would say I've done once or twice in my entire Brewing career. Maybe the first batch or two but never again. One of those processes that creates more problems than it solves. What is the old saying? A solution in search of a problem?

I did not get a shipping notification from Amazon yet.

 

[jerrylotto]

I strain my word through a sanitized 400 mesh bag after the boil and always get clean yeast from my fermentation.

 

[mashdar]

@faithie999 I don't put loose hops in my kettle. Only in bags. Unless one of those bags breaks open for some reason, I do not have enough solids in the kettle for me to care about. Literally 100% of what is in the kettle goes in the fermenter. I am going to try this filtering thing, but I know that I'll be trying to filter some seriously fine stuff. Not things that I think would bother me in the yeast cake, but I guess I will find out after my bucket filters arrive and I get to try them.

That's pretty much the gist of it. And really the main reason I considered even trying it with the particular batch I have, was that if it works with this, I could do it with anything. If the whole process fails, I'm out the cost of half a gallon of distilled water.

The video I watched which they termed yeast washing, was as pointed out above actually rinsing. The process was to mix the trub with water and agitate it considerably. Then let the solids settle out over a few minutes. Then pour the rest of the water in a new container and let it stratify overnight. Now pour the water off the top and what you're left with is predominantly yeast. That was the premise anyway. If the entire idea is flawed, I'm happy to learn something new.

It's more or less similar to what tried years ago using water I boiled and then cooled again. Perhaps this is another process like racking to a secondary, which I have heard recommended since I was a kid , but would say I've done once or twice in my entire Brewing career. Maybe the first batch or two but never again. One of those processes that creates more problems than it solves. What is the old saying? A solution in search of a problem?

I did not get a shipping notification from Amazon yet.

If you look around for more recent discussion, that method of "washing" was a poor application in a homebrew setting of a paper meant for labs. The general consensus these days is that it's not applicable, and the home version does more harm than good.

That's my impression, anyway.

 

[Nixter]

Let gravity do the separating

1. Boil 4L water for 10min, cooled to pitching temp, dumped into recently drained fermenter,
2. sloshed to break up the trüb cake, allow that to settle out for twenty minutes.
3. Pour whatever's on top into two sanitized 2 quart Ball Jars allow to settle,
4. clean out fermenter,
5. dump in cooled wort- aerate,
6. dump off most of the water in the top of the Ball jar,
7. dump cleaned yeast back into fermenter *only the clean white yeast that compacted in the top layer* into fermenter. Fin.

 

[user 338926]

Let gravity do the separating

1. Boil 4L water for 10min, cooled to pitching temp, dumped into recently drained fermenter,
2. sloshed to break up the trüb cake, allow that to settle out for twenty minutes.
3. Pour whatever's on top into two sanitized 2 quart Ball Jars allow to settle,
4. clean out fermenter,
5. dump in cooled wort- aerate,
6. dump off most of the water in the top of the Ball jar,
7. dump cleaned yeast back into fermenter *only the clean white yeast that compacted in the top layer* into fermenter. Fin.

That's what I had done in the past and I evidently hadn't kept it clean enough. Which is kind of odd considering it was a decade I'd been brewing without a contaminated Brew. The video I saw I said try it with distilled water and just forget the boiling step. I kind of like that idea but there is certainly enough different opinions here on the subject. I will give this a try again as well. Lord knows I have enough trub to work with.

 

[passedpawn]

No washing or rinsing. I just fill a couple of jars with the yeast at the bottom of the fermentor, then dump said jar into next batch. The less you handle the yeast the better. It's one place in my brewing I don't take any chances.

 

[user 338926]

OK guys, the shipping email came this morning and the baskets just arrived UPS... Odd also, normal UPS time is mid-late PM and they will need to come back. Not sure why they'd stop twice...

IMHO, 400 is WAY fine enough to strain wort. My filtering funnel has a larger mesh disk filter in it and wort stops that thing instantly. May as well stick saran wrap over the thing. If this sits for an hour and works, that's great.

I would go out on a limb and say no hop matter will get through this thing.

Here's a photo of the basket with a piece of 80 Mesh .0055 stainless and a piece of standard alum insect screen for reference. The 80 mesh (6400 openings / Sq In) is clearly finer. The insect screen is 18x16 mesh (18 wires/inch one direction 16 the other. Diameter .0095).

 

[Nixter]

That's what I had done in the past and I evidently hadn't kept it clean enough. Which is kind of odd considering it was a decade I'd been brewing without a contaminated Brew. The video I saw I said try it with distilled water and just forget the boiling step. I kind of like that idea but there is certainly enough different opinions here on the subject. I will give this a try again as well. Lord knows I have enough trub to work with.

I would definitely recheck your sanitation protocols.
One thing I do to keep the bugs on their toes- change up my sanitizing solution, mostly use Starsan but like to occasionally use Iodophor or Io-San in place of Starsan.

Boiling and then cooling the yeast washing water and containers in my pressure cooker is a pain and is a close to sterile as you might be able to get at home.

 

[Nixter]

No washing or rinsing. I just fill a couple of jars with the yeast at the bottom of the fermentor, then dump said jar into next batch. The less you handle the yeast the better. It's one place in my brewing I don't take any chances.

Used to do this and it always worked for me. Actually just dumped fresh wort directly onto a newly disgorged fermenter. have to admit the trüb did have an impact on flavor although no issues ever with infection. Back to back batching, it works.

 

[Broken Crow]

IMHO, 400 is WAY fine enough to strain wort. My filtering funnel has a larger mesh disk filter in it and wort stops that thing instantly.

Just sayin; I use a 420 mesh approx 10"x10" 'pillow'-filter in my keggle BK and hop pellets... Constant recirculation and whirlpooling and never a problem or slowdown.

 

[user 338926]

I would definitely recheck your sanitation protocols

Since my first batch of beer the only thing I have ever contaminated was that yeast rinsing deal. Fact is I just drank a bunch of bottles of beer, I'm going to say six cases or so, from 2013 and 2014. They were all fine. Clearly my packaging was not a problem. I don't know what I did that the rinsed yeast beer turned out a dumper but that's what it was. It didn't entice me to try it again that's for sure. And I could probably make a payment on a summer home for the money I've spent on starsan and pbw.

 

[user 338926]

Just sayin; I use a 420 mesh approx 10"x10" 'pillow'-filter in my keggle BK and hop pellets... Constant recirculation and whirlpooling and never a problem or slowdown.

I know It's just semantics but sometimes it does matter, it's not actually 420 mesh it's 420 micron. 420 mesh would be about 30 microns if it was 50% open area. The wires would be just barely 1000th of an inch. That stuff is available, don't get me wrong, but that's not what you're showing. That's way more coarse. Which is obviously fine, we're not trying to break down molecules here.

But to your point, that's interesting you can get stuff to flow through that mesh because even that looks plentty fine. I'm guessing here but it looks like probably about 30 to 40 mesh. And you are clearly happy at that. I mean, a piece of perforated metal filters our wort coming from the mash tun. If we recirculate a little bit it's actually the stuff we're catching that does the filtering. In the case of what we are trying to do to keep the gunk out of the fermenter, I'm sure these baskets will be just fine.

 

[user 338926]

Is that kind of a bag thing that you pump the wort into?

 

[odie]

I wouldn't get too worked up over what the micron rating is.

As long as it retains most of the kettle debris and flows reasonably well it should work just fine. You are not going to remove 100% of the silt. You just want a reasonably clean yeast cake at the end so you do not have to wash/rinse your yeast.

Letting the kettle sit for an hour or two first makes a HUGE difference. Most of the trub will drop to the bottom after a while so you can use a finer micron rated filter or screen without fear of it clogging up and slowing to a drip. You should be able to open the spigot and get 75-80% of the wort to run thru even the finest micron screen pretty fast.

That last gallon that you will dump in will clog the screen and then you just let that drip thru until it's done. Maybe an hour, maybe over night (cacao powder does that).

No pumps...just gravity...and time.

 

[beren]

Why not overbuild your starter? That's what I do. Make a spare 1l, decant, split into 10 vials with equal amounts of glycerine solution and put them in the freezer for later use.

 

[user 338926]

@odie Next batch I do I'll be trying this.

@beren I haven't graduated to that grade on my yeast prep yet. It's on the wish-list though.

 

[mac_1103]

That last gallon that you will dump in will clog the screen and then you just let that drip thru until it's done.

Have you ever tried dumping that last gallon through a coarser mesh first?

 

[odie]

Have you ever tried dumping that last gallon through a coarser mesh first?

No, I haven't but worth a try.

But typically, that last gallon dump makes it all thru in under an hour anyway.

It's only been stuff like RIS, pumpkin and cacao powder that seem to bring things to a halt. Those I let sit in the kettle extra time before running thru the screen. And the high OG stuff I don't plan to harvest the yeast anyway.

I've had stuff with cacao take days to drip thru. Not worth it anymore in those cases.

 

[Broken Crow]

That last gallon that you will dump in will clog the screen and then you just let that drip thru until it's done. Maybe an hour, maybe over night (cacao powder does that).

Thanks for mentioning that..it made me consider procedural differences we may have; I made my pillow-filter from 420 mesh when I switched from a large pot on the stove and using an Immersion Chiller, to my keggle with a Counter Flow Chiller...that is; I have no cold-break in the kettle to clog my filter and rely on an additional inline filter post-CFC for the cold break. I open my valve full when draining, but the CFC is only 3/8" tubing so it drains proportionally slower, but it never clogs or even slows down.
I'm not going to haggle over the numbers used in marketing products, so whatever the true sizes; Here's
the standard bazooka filter sold pretty much everywhere as "300 Mesh" next to my "420 Mesh" filter:

 

[user 338926]

I'm not going to haggle over the numbers used in marketing products, so whatever the true sizes; Here's
the standard bazooka filter sold pretty much everywhere as "300 Mesh" next to my "420 Mesh" filter:

Not a problem, as I said, it's just terminology, but they're using the wrong terms for sure. The 400 Micron filters I just bought are marketed correctly by opening size. They're easily 5x as fine as that tube they're calling "300 mesh". Same for the 400/420 "mesh", I simply have no words for why they would call it that. That tube gizmo shown for in your mash tun doesn't have 300 wires in the entire 12" length. I can count the wires with the naked eye. "Mesh", in the industry, is how many weaves there are per lineal inch. It doesn't describe opening size unless it also includes the mesh diameter and even then you need to calculate that. Hence the "Micron" designation gives a person an accurate idea of the opening size, but that doesn't describe how heavy the 'wires" in the mesh is.

Do you start your recirc first for a while and then install the blanket thing afterward? It's fine enough I can hardly believe you can start off with it and not have it clog up. I can't run my stuff through a sieve and not need to spoon it, same as I think it was Passed Pawn showed above.

 

[beren]

@beren I haven't graduated to that grade on my yeast prep yet. It's on the wish-list though.

It’s not bad. I get borosilicate tubes from Amazon so I can reuse them. Just gotta not break them

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/maintaining-a-healthy-yeast-bank-long-term.678997/
Labvida 40pcs of Glass Serological Test Tubes with Black Bakelite Screw Caps Silicon Liners, Vol.15ml 16x150mm with Marking Area, Borosilicate Glass Material, Flat Bottom, LVH004 https://a.co/d/e3qMGxh

 

[Broken Crow]

Not a problem, as I said, it's just terminology, but they're using the wrong terms for sure. The 400 Micron filters I just bought are marketed correctly by opening size. They're easily 5x as fine as that tube they're calling "300 mesh". Same for the 400/420 "mesh", I simply have no words for why they would call it that. That tube gizmo shown for in your mash tun doesn't have 300 wires in the entire 12" length. I can count the wires with the naked eye. "Mesh", in the industry, is how many weaves there are per lineal inch. It doesn't describe opening size unless it also includes the mesh diameter and even then you need to calculate that. Hence the "Micron" designation gives a person an accurate idea of the opening size, but that doesn't describe how heavy the 'wires" in the mesh is.

Do you start your recirc first for a while and then install the blanket thing afterward? It's fine enough I can hardly believe you can start off with it and not have it clog up. I can't run my stuff through a sieve and not need to spoon it, same as I think it was Passed Pawn showed above.

It's in the keggle from the get-go.... After watching videos of the famous HopStopper (which, being in Canada, costs twice as much after shipping and duty) in action, I went with both a larger surface area as well as inserting a SS wire 'frame' to keep it from collapsing as well as to keep an underside curved above my keggle-bottom. Since I whirlpool, the centre of the top is always left with an impassable mound, but the underside and the outer corners remain far less impeded.
BTW, with an average hop-load for an English style, the size of my mound appears to my eye, larger than to surface area of the flat-bottomed HopStopper, which I can easily see clogging if it were the same gauge mesh.