Newbie Questions: Dry Hop, Cold Crash, Gelatin?

[melloweyelids]

I am fermenting my 2nd batch right now. First batch was not great, but kit was 1+ years old (except for yeast). Anyway, I have a few questions about finishing up my fermentation. Current batch is the DME More Beer Pliny Clone. OG was 1.069 and target was 1.070, which is pretty good considering that I had a mishap with the wort chiller and water leaked into the wort when cooling, adding extra water to the wort. Batch could be infected for all I know, but time will tell. I am on well water so there is no concern about chlorine. I Used Omega Yeast West Coast Ale I yeast. When the yeast arrived from More Beer it was warmish and swollen despite having two gel packs. Because of that I made a yeast starter, which I had going for 24 hours on a spin plate before pitching at 72-74°. Pitch temp and initial fermentation may have been too high. Had some krausen blowoff on Day 1 of fermentation and had to set up a blowoff tube in a large mason jar of star san. I have kept the blowoff tube on ever since. However, the carboy is quite messy with krausen residue at the moment, which leads me to my first question:

1. Is it worth racking to secondary before dry hop and cold crash so that I can avoid getting the krausen residue involved in the dry hop or transferred to the bottles when I rack? I know the general consensus is that racking to secondary is not necessary and risky in terms of oxidation, but I am wondering if the benefits might outweigh the risks in this case? Or am I overthinking it? I've also read some comments about racking to secondary being better for dry hopping to reduce the yeast interaction with the hops, but most of these comments are from 10 years ago. Thoughts?

It took 24+ hours to get the fermentation temp closer to 66°. I've kept the glass carboy in a Cool Brewing Bag (bag only) and used frozen liter bottles and gel packs to keep ferment temps around 64-66° since then. This current batch has been fermenting for 11 days. Been doing a diacetyl rest at 68-69° for the past two days. Which leads me wondering where I should go from here. I have yet to add the dry hops. For my last batch I went down the rabbit hole of how many days to dry hop and only dry hopped for two. For this batch I was planning to dry hop for 2-3 days. Which leads me to my second question:

2. How long should I dry hop for? I know some folks advocate for dry hopping right after high krausen in order to allow yeast to clean up diacetyl produced by dry hopping, while others wait until fermentation is nearly complete so there is less interaction between yeast and hops. Obviously it is too late for me to take the former option. But just looking for your thoughts regarding my current situation, and perhaps some suggestions for the future.

I did not cold crash my first batch because I was tired of going down rabbit holes. I plan to try and cold crash this time, or at least do a soft crash. I do not have a fridge or freezer to use to cold crash, so I am stuck with adding in as many frozen liter bottles as possible and seeing how it goes. Which leads me to my next question:

3. When should I cold crash? Before dry hopping or after? Again, gone down the rabbit hole and I feel like I have the answer, but want some input. It seems like the general consensus is to dry hop and then cold crash. However, my yeast is still on the sides of the carboy and I was thinking about doing a soft crash in hopes that some of the yeast falls out, dry hopping, and then cold crashing more. I am unsure what kind of cold crash temps I can get to with my current setup. Is it doing too much to cold crash twice like this? Will it even be effective in dropping some of the yeast off the sides? I know it will extend fermentation but I would be willing to try. I am also very open to other, more expedient solutions. Would love to hear your thoughts!

I've also gone down the rabbit hole about using gelatin. I ordered some from More Beer and it just arrived today. However, I've read a lot of conflicting opinions about this. Some say that using gelatin after dry hopping will reduce the hop aroma, while others say that they do not notice much of a difference. I've even read that some use less gelatin for heavily dry hopped beers like this pliny clone. So, my next questions...

4. Should I add gelatin in order to clear out this beer after cold crashing and dry hopping? Or will that ruin the extra dry hoppy aroma of my pliny clone? Again, I am sure that I am overthinking things, but I just want to fish out some opinions and input.

5. I was also considering cold crashing, adding gelatin, bringing the temp back up, then dry hopping, all before cold crashing again before racking to bottle. Is this a course to consider? I know that doing it this way would mean the gelatin would not be able to drop out the hop particles, but it might also avoid a loss of hop aroma from the gelatin. At least that is my thinking. However, this plan would be a lot of work, especially considering the fact that my current setup is pretty hodgepodge without a fridge/freezer setup for the cold crashing. Is it worth this much effort and waiting to rack for over another week to do this? Maybe not, but I want to hear your feedback.


I think these are all of the questions I have right now. I know it is a lot. And I know, I should just RDWHAHB. I am actually drinking one of the brews from my first batch right now, as mediocre as they are. Anyway, any kind of feedback would be helpful for me. There is just so much information to sift though these days, which is both a blessing and a curse. I am just looking for some help with my current batch, which will help me as I continue to home brew. Next up is a partial mash pale ale from my localish home brew shop. I digress. I appreciate your time reading, and possibly responding to, my lengthy post. Cheers.

 

[mac_1103]

The answers to some of your questions will depend on what kind of equipment you have, but I will say that many people follow the Scott Janish short and cool approach to dry hopping, which basically means that you soft or cool crash to around 50F and then dry hop for a day. You can still cold crash after dry hopping, but you're right that that might be tough without a fridge. I wouldn't recommend racking to a second vessel unless you are set up to do oxygen-free transfers.

 

[worlddivides]

I would dry hop right there in that fermenter. Secondary seems both entirely unnecessary (it is a Pliny clone, after all) and pretty dangerous (huge risk of oxidation). If you're kegging, then it might be a good idea to use gelatin. If you're bottling, you could add the gelatin to the fermenter the day before bottling, but it does seem to further increase the risk of oxidation, which could be mitigated by adding the gelatin with the dry hops, though it's possible the gelatin could reduce the time that the hops are floating before going to the bottom of the fermenter. Gelatin does not have any affect at all on hop aroma or flavor, so no need to worry about that. But the oxidation risk is real. Gelatin will definitely clear up the beers faster, but it comes down to how important clarity is to you.

 

[refect]

1. I wouldn't worry about the krausen caked to the top of the inside of your carboy. It's not going to cause any harm and will likely remain stuck there until you clean it. If any does come off, it will likely drop to the bottom anyways. It won't get in the way of your hops.

2. I usually dry hop for about 2-3 days. I have had great results with this time length. I also like to wait until fermentation is complete and then soft crash to about 55 F for 2 days to allow the yeast to drop as much as possible before dry hoping. I like to follow a lot of methods scott janish has spoke/researched on. He has some great pod casts and his book is also a great read if you want to some pointers on making great IPAs.

3. I cold crash after dry hoping for about 2 days. This will allow the majority of your hops to drop out making racking a bit easier. I usually cold crash to about 36-38 F, but that is because that is as cold as I can get with my setup. Cold crashing at those temps seems to work good for me so I keep doing it that way.

4/5. I rarely use fining agents in my beers. I personally wouldn't use it, but if I did, I would do it before dry hoping.

 

[melloweyelids]

The answers to some of your questions will depend on what kind of equipment you have, but I will say that many people follow the Scott Janish short and cool approach to dry hopping, which basically means that you soft or cool crash to around 50F and then dry hop for a day. You can still cold crash after dry hopping, but you're right that that might be tough without a fridge. I wouldn't recommend racking to a second vessel unless you are set up to do oxygen-free transfers.

Thank you. I will do a soft crash before dry hopping and see how it goes. I can't bottle until next weekend, so this gives me some time get the temp down a bit, dry hop, and then at least try to cold crash some more. Do I need to bring the beer back to room temp before bottling? Or will it be fine to bottle at colder temps?

I would dry hop right there in that fermenter. Secondary seems both entirely unnecessary (it is a Pliny clone, after all) and pretty dangerous (huge risk of oxidation). If you're kegging, then it might be a good idea to use gelatin. If you're bottling, you could add the gelatin to the fermenter the day before bottling, but it does seem to further increase the risk of oxidation, which could be mitigated by adding the gelatin with the dry hops, though it's possible the gelatin could reduce the time that the hops are floating before going to the bottom of the fermenter. Gelatin does not have any affect at all on hop aroma or flavor, so no need to worry about that. But the oxidation risk is real. Gelatin will definitely clear up the beers faster, but it comes down to how important clarity is to you.

Will do! Appreciate your input! Still undecided on adding the gelatin. Clarity doesn't necessarily matter to me much to me, so maybe I will skip it this time around and then brew the same kit in the future using gelatin to test things out a bit. Out if curiosity, why is gelatin more important for kegging compared to bottling? I assume it is because the beer conditions "by itself" more in the bottle than in a keg, but I am unsure. Thanks for your response!

1. I wouldn't worry about the krausen caked to the top of the inside of your carboy. It's not going to cause any harm and will likely remain stuck there until you clean it. If any does come off, it will likely drop to the bottom anyways. It won't get in the way of your hops.

2. I usually dry hop for about 2-3 days. I have had great results with this time length. I also like to wait until fermentation is complete and then soft crash to about 55 F for 2 days to allow the yeast to drop as much as possible before dry hoping. I like to follow a lot of methods scott janish has spoke/researched on. He has some great pod casts and his book is also a great read if you want to some pointers on making great IPAs.

3. I cold crash after dry hoping for about 2 days. This will allow the majority of your hops to drop out making racking a bit easier. I usually cold crash to about 36-38 F, but that is because that is as cold as I can get with my setup. Cold crashing at those temps seems to work good for me so I keep doing it that way.

4/5. I rarely use fining agents in my beers. I personally wouldn't use it, but if I did, I would do it before dry hoping.

Much appreciated! Just going to keep it in the primary fermenter based on your and others' advice. Gonna skip the gelatin this go around I think and maybe try it in the future. Someone else also mentioned Scott Janish. I will be looking into him ore. I've listened to couple home brew books on audio tape and a podcast would be great to listen to while I drive!

Thanks ya'll for being so helpful!

 

[mac_1103]

Do I need to bring the beer back to room temp before bottling? Or will it be fine to bottle at colder temps?

You can bottle it at any temperature you like, but obviously will want to keep the bottles relatively warm for a couple of weeks to carbonate.

 

[melloweyelids]

You can bottle it at any temperature you like, but obviously will want to keep the bottles relatively warm for a couple of weeks to carbonate.

True. Thanks dude!

 

[melloweyelids]

The answers to some of your questions will depend on what kind of equipment you have, but I will say that many people follow the Scott Janish short and cool approach to dry hopping, which basically means that you soft or cool crash to around 50F and then dry hop for a day. You can still cold crash after dry hopping, but you're right that that might be tough without a fridge. I wouldn't recommend racking to a second vessel unless you are set up to do oxygen-free transfers.

I just read that article! Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[worlddivides]

Will do! Appreciate your input! Still undecided on adding the gelatin. Clarity doesn't necessarily matter to me much to me, so maybe I will skip it this time around and then brew the same kit in the future using gelatin to test things out a bit. Out if curiosity, why is gelatin more important for kegging compared to bottling? I assume it is because the beer conditions "by itself" more in the bottle than in a keg, but I am unsure. Thanks for your response!

When you keg, you could think of the keg as like one huge bottle. The gelatin you've added to the keg pulls all the particulates down to the bottom. Even without gelatin, simply making the beer cold will cause heavier particles to fall to the bottom. The colder, the faster this happens. That's the main purpose of a cold crash. With kegging, assuming you don't move the keg, the first time you pour a beer, all the particulate that's fallen to the bottom is removed. With bottles, each bottle is separate, so you want to do the fining and cold crashing before bottling, so you can put as little of those particles as possible in the bottles. But the problem is that you can't get the trub to zero or even remotely close to zero unless you're kegging and then bottling from the keg because carbonating with priming sugar in the bottles causes the yeast to multiply and create a bunch of trub in every bottle. This isn't a problem restricted to homebrew either. Commercial breweries that bottle condition also always have trub at the bottom of their bottles. But even without gelatin, you can get very clear bottled beers. It's just that jostling the bottle (or turning it sideways or upside down) will make the bottles all cloudy with yeast and whatever other trub is in there again. But again, you can get crystal clear beer without using finings.

For reference, I've posted three photos:
1. Bottled - No fining - American Pale Ale - This is about 2 weeks after bottling
2. Bottled - No fining - Sour IPA - This is maybe 3 weeks after bottling
3. Kegged - Gelatin - West Coast Pilsner - This is maybe 3 weeks after kegging
(I labeled the photos just in case they get displayed out of order)

 

[melloweyelids]

When you keg, you could think of the keg as like one huge bottle. The gelatin you've added to the keg pulls all the particulates down to the bottom. Even without gelatin, simply making the beer cold will cause heavier particles to fall to the bottom. The colder, the faster this happens. That's the main purpose of a cold crash. With kegging, assuming you don't move the keg, the first time you pour a beer, all the particulate that's fallen to the bottom is removed. With bottles, each bottle is separate, so you want to do the fining and cold crashing before bottling, so you can put as little of those particles as possible in the bottles. But the problem is that you can't get the trub to zero or even remotely close to zero unless you're kegging and then bottling from the keg because carbonating with priming sugar in the bottles causes the yeast to multiply and create a bunch of trub in every bottle. This isn't a problem restricted to homebrew either. Commercial breweries that bottle condition also always have trub at the bottom of their bottles. But even without gelatin, you can get very clear bottled beers. It's just that jostling the bottle (or turning it sideways or upside down) will make the bottles all cloudy with yeast and whatever other trub is in there again. But again, you can get crystal clear beer without using finings.

For reference, I've posted three photos:
1. Bottled - No fining - American Pale Ale - This is about 2 weeks after bottling
2. Bottled - No fining - Sour IPA - This is maybe 3 weeks after bottling
3. Kegged - Gelatin - West Coast Pilsner - This is maybe 3 weeks after kegging
(I labeled the photos just in case they get displayed out of order)

That west coast pilsner looks pretty clean. All look great really. Would love to get into kegging in the future. Also need to get a dedicated brewing fridge in the garage. One step at a time. Thanks for the explanation my dude.

 

[brewSJ]

Personally, I don’t cold-crash or use finings. I just wait for the beer to clear on its own, then rack it to a bottling bucked leaving behind as much of the yeast cake as I can (especially if it's something powdery like Windsor). Takes a bit longer, but it’s one less thing to worry about.