Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[seatazzz]

Not sure what happened, but the Centennial lager I brewed back on the 7th is a poopty dumper. Horrible "soapy" flavor, I'm getting the floral notes from the Centennial but the beer itself is bad. I'm thinking it was the yeast. The only other WF lager I brewed that went south was done on 3rd gen 34/70 (fruity beyond drinkability) so that might be it. I'm old but I CAN learn from my mistakes after a few tries. I've had better luck with S-23, so I brewed up a batch of my Crystal lager Thursday night with that. Looks promising a few days in. Bit depressed because it was the first dumper I've had in quite some time, my record has been stellar since I got my fermentation fridge. Poopy.

 

[ncbrewer]

Not sure what happened, but the Centennial lager I brewed back on the 7th is a poopty dumper. Horrible "soapy" flavor, I'm getting the floral notes from the Centennial but the beer itself is bad.

I haven't noticed it, but have read that Centennial and Cascade give a soapy flavor.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I haven't noticed it, but have read that Centennial and Cascade give a soapy flavor.

It seems to be a genetic thing, around 15% of people perceive coriander/cilantro as soapy, and Centennial soapiness seems to be tied up with that.

 

[ba-brewer]

It seems to be a genetic thing, around 15% of people perceive coriander/cilantro as soapy, and Centennial soapiness seems to be tied up with that.

And some people think cilantro taste/smell like doll hair. I did not understand that one until I pulled some mature plants, and the stalks had a strong plastic like smell.

Could soapy be a phenolic thing?

 

[EDF713]

How long do you folks see Mangrove Jacks California Lager yeast take? I brewed a Schwartzbier a couple of weeks ago OG was 1.049, pitched a hydrated pack of MJ54, fermented at 68 for a week then 72. It had a huge krausen that dropped, but bubbles still remain on the surface and an occasional burb through the airlock. Seems like a long time, but this is my first try with this yeast.

 

[STMF]

How long do you folks see Mangrove Jacks California Lager yeast take? I brewed a Schwartzbier a couple of weeks ago OG was 1.049, pitched a hydrated pack of MJ54, fermented at 68 for a week then 72. It had a huge krausen that dropped, but bubbles still remain on the surface and an occasional burb through the airlock. Seems like a long time, but this is my first try with this yeast.

What is the SG at the moment? That is the only way to tell if it is finished. Airlock activity is no indication of active fermentation. It is probably just relasing Co2.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

the last 3 lagers were made from 34/70 and the same yeast cake all were done at my usual ale temp rate start at 60 ramp up to 70 in 7 days stay there till day 10 then chill, but what was odd was the 34/70 keeps finishing in 5 days and a perfectly clean taste but I did follow my schedule then chilled at 34 for a week while carbing and adding gelatin, my family couldn't put them down, I've also done a no chill on the last 2 overnight and back on the same cake, not as clear to start but the taste is right there

 

[Beer666]

How long do you folks see Mangrove Jacks California Lager yeast take? I brewed a Schwartzbier a couple of weeks ago OG was 1.049, pitched a hydrated pack of MJ54, fermented at 68 for a week then 72. It had a huge krausen that dropped, but bubbles still remain on the surface and an occasional burb through the airlock. Seems like a long time, but this is my first try with this yeast.

I have been leaving mine for 3 weeks in the FV. 2 or 3 days to cold crash, then i add finings leave for 2 more days, force carb overnight and drink.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Could soapy be a phenolic thing?

Unlikely - the most common mutation associated with the soapy thing is in OR6A2, which is a gene that seems to be tied up with the perception of aldehydes, and terpenols like linalool probably come into it somewhere as well. See eg here.

 

[EDF713]

I have been leaving mine for 3 weeks in the FV. 2 or 3 days to cold crash, then i add finings leave for 2 more days, force carb overnight and drink.

I figured I’d do the same, what’s weird is the thin layer of foam/bubbles that stayed for a week and a half after the krausen dropped. This is my first time using MJ54, didn’t know if others had seen that. Anyway, most is gone now and it’s starting to clear.

 

[seatazzz]

And some people think cilantro taste/smell like doll hair. I did not understand that one until I pulled some mature plants, and the stalks had a strong plastic like smell.

Could soapy be a phenolic thing?

Not really. Phenolic usually comes across as medicine-y or bandaid-y (trust me I know from experience). This one is definitely soapy, even down to kinda feeling soapy in my teeth. There's also a slight vomitous note in there as well. I'm thinking now it's a combination of the yeast and the hops (they are pretty old but were kept cold). Just going to write this one off and stop using 34/70 past two generations. I like what S-23 does better anyhow.

Another issue might be fermentation temperature. I do have a ferment fridge, but can only cool down, not warm up at this point (going to get a heat lamp this week and see if that helps). I know that it was fermented on lager yeast, but if it fluctuated too much at night that could be a factor?

 

[JohnSand]

I think I've had an oily mouthfeel from infection.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

There's also a slight vomitous note in there as well.

That sounds like butyrate, which is normally the result of a bacterial infection although some people seem to be far more sensitive to it than others.

 

[ba-brewer]

Not really. Phenolic usually comes across as medicine-y or bandaid-y (trust me I know from experience). This one is definitely soapy, even down to kinda feeling soapy in my teeth. There's also a slight vomitous note in there as well. I'm thinking now it's a combination of the yeast and the hops (they are pretty old but were kept cold). Just going to write this one off and stop using 34/70 past two generations. I like what S-23 does better anyhow.

Another issue might be fermentation temperature. I do have a ferment fridge, but can only cool down, not warm up at this point (going to get a heat lamp this week and see if that helps). I know that it was fermented on lager yeast, but if it fluctuated too much at night that could be a factor?

I did a search for soapy off flavor and it mentioned the break down of fatty acids in trub. If you don't wash your yeast maybe it is possible to get some old break/trub getting carried over for a couple batches. Not sure how much old trub it would take foul a batch.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

I used to do with lagers with cooling only and not think it ever caused issues. A seedling heating mat works good for a heat source and get direct heat to the fermentor.

 

[dkeller12]

Hey everyone. I have been reading up on this warm fermented lager thread and it has me thinking I need to try it. I have been brewing ales for about 6 years and have always wanted to do a later but don't have the fridge to lager. I would love to try a Munich Dunkel and was wondering if anyone has a recipe that they could share that they really enjoy so that I can give this a go. Thanks and cheers!

 

[seatazzz]

Just finally dumped out the 34/70 bad one. Gave it one more chance to crash, didn't help. I knew it probably wouldn't, but what the hey. Crystal lager on s-23 I did last Thursday is promising, however; krausen dropped after just 4 days and it's down to 1.015 now. Tastes great and is starting the cold crash tonight with an eye to kegging this weekend. All is not lost!

 

[Numsquat]

Been watching this thread for a while now and decided to give the warm lager idea a try. Not going to do a lager though. Brewing a 10 gal batch Tuesday of a tried and true recipe that probably is closest to a Kentucky Commons style as far a styles go. It's something I brew year round but change the mash temp summer and winter. 156F in the summer for something a little drier/lower alcohol, 150F in the winter that's a little sweeter/higher alcohol. The mash difference results in about 0.5 difference in ABV.

Tuesday I will be switching to the 150F mash. I thought it would be a good time to try the MJs M54 yeast. Though not a lager recipe I figure this will give me an idea how the yeast acts at 66F fermenting. The other 5 gal with be done with Safale-05, my usual yeast (and temp) for the recipe. Figure I can compare the fermentation aspects and come up with a somewhat different beer flavor/etc-wise, using the Safale beer as a baseline. Plan to do a "fresh" taste test of the two and will probably give the MJ batch a couple months or so of lagering then taste test against a fresh Safale batch (I brew this particular beer about every 2nd-4th batch, pretty much a main stay beer in my keggerator).

So I figure I will learn some about the yeast and if there are no major issues/off flavors/diacetyl I will give it a try on a lager early spring (when I normally brew a few batches of lagers to lager for summer). Plus who knows, it might give a better flavor to my recipe which would be a bonus.

 

[seatazzz]

I post way too much in this thread, but I love my lagers. Racked 10 gallons of an experimental Black Lager (kinda session-y porter recipe with Cascade & Chinook hops) onto the S-23 I just kegged off of today; split the slurry between two carboys and less than 6 hours later both have high healthy krausen and the ferment fridge smells fabulous. I'm a mite concerned since I'm pretty sure this is the 6th generation of this yeast batch; but the lager I kegged today is delicious with no off flavors, and the speedy start to fermentation for this one has me hopeful. I've read a lot about re-pitching yeast, and the consensus I seem to find is NEVER use yeast past 5 generations. We'll see.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

this is my third batch of dumping right on top of this yeast , I started scooping half out every brew, cleaning the ring and timing the day right then just dump right on top, when It's clean I keep using it

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Hey everyone. I have been reading up on this warm fermented lager thread and it has me thinking I need to try it. I have been brewing ales for about 6 years and have always wanted to do a later but don't have the fridge to lager. I would love to try a Munich Dunkel and was wondering if anyone has a recipe that they could share that they really enjoy so that I can give this a go. Thanks and cheers!

This is one I did back in September. Also my first warm fermented lager (and lager and general). This is for a 12 gallon batch. I really like how it turned out.

Batch Size: 12 gallons
Mash: 60 minutes @ 152F
Boil: 60 minutes
OG: Target: 1.055, Measured: 1.054
FG: Est: 1.013, Measured: 1.013
ABV: 5.4%
IBU: 25.7

Grains:
20 lb - Belgian Munich (local hb shop didn't have german munich) (80%)
2 lb - Caraaroma (8%)
1 lb - Carafa I (4%)
2 lb - Aromatic (4%) - I used this malt to try to get the Belgian Munich base malt closer to German Munich

Hops:
1.0 oz - Perle - Boil 45 minutes
2.0 oz - Perle - Boil 15 minutes

Yeast:
34/70: Used one packet per 6 gallons into the fermenter, no starter. Fermented at ~65F (temperature of my basement)

 

[dkeller12]

Thank you Cool_Hand_Luke. I will give that one a try. I was hoping that someone would respond, so thank you.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Thank you Cool_Hand_Luke. I will give that one a try. I was hoping that someone would respond, so thank you.

No problem! Let us know how it turns out!

 

[applescrap]

I splashed out for the palmer and zainsheff classic recipes book. This has a recipe for every style as a good starting point. You can find their dunkel recipe online with a little searching. I love this book and it is so helpful answering the question, what do I want to brew next.

 

[Genuine]

My Oktoberfest which is drinking nicely!

 

[ba-brewer]

I splashed out for the palmer and zainsheff classic recipes book. This has a recipe for every style as a good starting point. You can find their dunkel recipe online with a little searching. I love this book and it is so helpful answering the question, what do I want to brew next.

I think Jamil does a good job in explaining how the different beers should be brewed. When I am going to try a new style I take a look BCS to see how his recipes look. I think he likes roasty beers more than I do so will tone the roast malts down a little if I brew one of his recipes.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

My Vienna Lager fermented with ale temperatures and on top of that no chill, perfect taste

 

[seatazzz]

Update on the Black lager...tasted it today. Gravity where I want it, but the flavor is a bit meh. Dark malts are a bit overshadowed by the lager 'bite' and the hops, but it's there. Going to give it a good crash and let it lager for a week before kegging. The crystal lager that was kegged in order to give the yeast to this one, however....best one yet. Great flavor, not sweet like the last two have been, just a nice strong lager flavor. Happy!

 

[jahlinux]

Just finished up brewing a Märzen. Recipe is from “Brewing Classic Styles”. Using W-34/70 and fermenting at 66°F.

 

[applescrap]

I am still drinking the pilsner from before. Definitely got better with age and the golden promise is really good. The hop character is interesting.

 

[applescrap]

Just finished up brewing a Märzen. Recipe is from “Brewing Classic Styles”. Using W-34/70 and fermenting at 66°F.

The color of this one is nice. Cant wait to see it.