Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[MakeDankBeer]

Well couldn't stay away for long, brewed another one this weekend,
3 gal
1.050 og
2 lb 2-row
2lb 6-row
1lb of flaked corn
1lb of flaked rice
.25 oz willamette fwh
.25 oz willamette @15min
2 pinches of irish moss @15 min

pitched 3 packets of WLP840(forgot to make a starter)
aerated for 60sec of pure oxygen
pitched at 50°f

think ill just let this free rise up into the mid 60s for couple days then let it get up into the 70s for a week, then try and "chill" it for two-three weeks. FIN with gelatin keg and drink after week or two.

 

[John Kimble]

Good evening everyone,
New to the forum and brewing. Still getting my operation setup, and learning all the chemistry.
I spoke to Applescrap last night about the basics of warm ferment lager and the environmental problems I am facing.
I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.
I will be able to get my wort down to initial pitching temp with an ice bath and ground water recirc (80 degrees usually), but after that, unless I buy a brew jacket I am stuck with room temp.
Since I plan on bottling, I am looking for specific advice as to yeast strain (I have seen a lot of recommendations so far in this post), time for ferment in the container, at what point I should bottle, and if I should then put all the bottles in the fridge and let them further ferment/clarify.
I apologize as I know a lot of this has already been covered, but I want to make sure I am covering all my bases as a newbie.
Thanks again!

 

[Miraculix]

Good evening everyone,
New to the forum and brewing. Still getting my operation setup, and learning all the chemistry.
I spoke to Applescrap last night about the basics of warm ferment lager and the environmental problems I am facing.
I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.
I will be able to get my wort down to initial pitching temp with an ice bath and ground water recirc (80 degrees usually), but after that, unless I buy a brew jacket I am stuck with room temp.
Since I plan on bottling, I am looking for specific advice as to yeast strain (I have seen a lot of recommendations so far in this post), time for ferment in the container, at what point I should bottle, and if I should then put all the bottles in the fridge and let them further ferment/clarify.
I apologize as I know a lot of this has already been covered, but I want to make sure I am covering all my bases as a newbie.
Thanks again!

The most forgiving lager yeast ist mangrove jack California lager. You basically throw it in, let it ride till it is done, then you bottle with the amount of priming sugar you prefer (the more sugar, the more fizz, I usually use 4 grams per 0.5l, one sugar cube, how convenient!) And let the capped bottles stand at room temperature. After two weeks time, the beer should be fully carbonated and good to drink (doesn't hurt if you have to check a bottle already after one week in the bottle ).


By "let it ride till it is done" I meant till fermentation has finished. You can take hydrometer readings and when gravity readings stay stable, it is done. You can let it sit longer if you want the yeast to fall out of suspension or if you want it to clean up unwanted fermentation byproducts. With this yeast and a starting gravity of about 1.05, you can safely assume that fermentation has finished after 12 days. .... Usually it is actually done after a few days. But taking into account the aforementioned, I wouldn't bottle prior to ten days in the fermenter.

Edit: if you order mangrove jack yeast, than buy yourself a pack of "new world strong ale" yeast as well from this company. It is a clean ale yeast that also works at your temperature range and it would be fun to do your lager recipe again, but this time with this ale yeast instead to compare.

What you will recognize is that the taste differs a bit and that this ale yeast will drop clear way faster.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.

You need to get a posting to Alaska for the sake of your yeast! >=75F without temperature control would traditionally be regarded as tough for any kind of brewing bar saisons, never mind trying to brew lager. So be prepared for them to be not as clean as you might hope, but hopefully the tips in this thread can help you exceed those expectations.

Although the Mangrove Jack M54 has attracted the most excitement in this thread, I suspect any Californian lager yeast will do - most of the yeast companies do one. At this time of year dry yeast will probably be a better bet from a shipping point of view, if you can't get liquid yeast from a local shop.

But really you're an ideal customer for Norwegian yeast, which have crazy temperature tolerance. I'd love to see someone doing a warm lager with Hothead (aka Stranda) from Omega, which is meant to be the cleanest of the Norwegian kveiks; or give Hornindal (Omega and others) for fruity NEIPA-ish beers. Voss (Omega, Yeast Bay etc) is somewhere in between.

 

[z-bob]

Good evening everyone,
New to the forum and brewing. Still getting my operation setup, and learning all the chemistry.
I spoke to Applescrap last night about the basics of warm ferment lager and the environmental problems I am facing.
I am stationed in the Florida Keys and my house does not get below 75 all year. I am very limited on space and do not have any dedicated cooling mechanism to work with. I may purchase a brewjacket solid state device to assist.
I will be able to get my wort down to initial pitching temp with an ice bath and ground water recirc (80 degrees usually), but after that, unless I buy a brew jacket I am stuck with room temp.
Since I plan on bottling, I am looking for specific advice as to yeast strain (I have seen a lot of recommendations so far in this post), time for ferment in the container, at what point I should bottle, and if I should then put all the bottles in the fridge and let them further ferment/clarify.
I apologize as I know a lot of this has already been covered, but I want to make sure I am covering all my bases as a newbie.
Thanks again!

I have used T-58 yeast at an ambient temperature of about 80° and the beer was good. I pitched the yeast at about 70 degrees and just let it do it's thing in my hot unairconditioned kitchen in the summer. I have no idea how hot it got at peak activity. It was a wheat beer (49% 2-row, 49% wheat malt, 2% melanoidin malt, Saaz hops) It certainly wasn't a lager, but it was nice; no off flavors. As an added bonus, T-58 is pretty cheap.

K1V-1116 wine yeast is another possibility. I fermented a beer with it last spring, and it took forever because the temp was really too cool, but the beer turned out really nice. I want to try it again and ferment in the 70's and see what happens. (that yeast is cheap too. I'm starting to see a pattern...)

With one of the Norwegian yeasts, you should be able to do really clean crisp ales at 90+ degrees, and they will be ready to bottle in about a week. You can even pitch them at 90° if you're having trouble chilling the wort much below that.

 

[John Kimble]

I really appreciate all the advice. I am going to start with a Norwegian strain based on your recommendations. I am going to try and get a Brewjacket solid state cooler to regulate the best I can, but I will report my findings once I get my setup all purchased and start the first batch.
I am likely going to use a Spikes Conical as my fermenting container, so I may also try to let ambient pressure build up to 15psi to do a partial pressurized ferment to account for the increased temp. I have been reading a lot of literature suggesting that increased pressure at at higher temp prevents off flavors and increases clarity by reducing the ester and fusel production. Am I off on this?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you're using a kveik then just keep it simple - don't bother with the Brewjacket, don't complicate it with pressure. They don't have any of that gear in a Norwegian farmhouse!

 

[Mer-man]

If you're using a kveik then just keep it simple - don't bother with the Brewjacket, don't complicate it with pressure. They don't have any of that gear in a Norwegian farmhouse!

Nope, just sheep and cabbage

 

[John Kimble]

Got it. Will brew it pure! Do you know if the Hothead Omega or any of the other similar strands have issues with being harvested and used again?

 

[Beer666]

Hat off to you again applescrap i am now completely hooked on this method. Kegged a Black lager last week. My fifth go with MJ54. Brewed 29 days ago, crystal clear and perfectly drinkable. Whats great about this yeast as it says on the pack "extended lagering not necessary". The only other cali lager yeast i have tried was crossmyloof (only once) and that was not as tasty and did not clear anywhere near as fast.
I will be trying the MJ bohemian and Bavarian at warm temps soon after i do a cold run to see if there is any difference.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Got it. Will brew it pure! Do you know if the Hothead Omega or any of the other similar strands have issues with being harvested and used again?

Well the original kveiks were preserved dried on bits of wood, they're pretty tough beasts. So the commercial versions should be fine (with the caveat that they may have been purified of some vital bacterium etc that helped them survive harvesting, unlikely though).

I'd aim for the hoppier pilsner end of the lager spectrum - can't guarantee that a kveik at 90F will be quite as clean as an authentic German helles, but from what I've read, you should make something that's better than most US commercial lagers for knocking back with the boys in that >75F heat.

Maybe using proper lager yeast with a cooling system will be the only way to get something that satisfies your tastebuds, but I'm all for taking the cheap and low-tech route if possible!

 

[davidabcd]

I'm about to this weekend. Holding on to the last 3/4 gallon to make sure I have enough to bottle. Was fermented at 64-66 for 2 weeks, crashed, then kegged. Tapped after force carbed. First few pints had a weird quinine-y bitterness but it faded fast, end result is a nice crisp flavorful beer. Won't get scores until the 31st, will definitely post here.

OFF TOPIC ALERT: When I read this, I wondered, "How does he know what quinine tasted like? Had malaria?" I found that it is commonly used. Learn something every day.

 

[seatazzz]

OFF TOPIC ALERT: When I read this, I wondered, "How does She know what quinine tasted like? Had malaria?" I found that it is commonly used. Learn something every day.

Quinine is also what makes tonic water, well, tonic water. Also FTFY.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks beer666. I am going to have to try the mj yeast. The 3470 isnt flocking. John 75 is no problema. A good read is the brulosophy exbmt on fermentation temperature. There are a bunch of them, but this one he did 82 and i think 58. Yes, in this one tasters did discern a difference but iirc correctly they also preferred the warm ferment. The brewer, brulosopher, was blown away with how close they were.

 

[seatazzz]

Looks like #5 might be done in ten days like I was hoping. Did a D-rest at 72 for 3 days, gravity is stuck at 1.018. No diacetyl however. Crystal hops (and that's all I used) gave it a very gentle bittering bite and very nice floral/slightly fruity aroma and flavor. Just turned down the controller to get it started down the cold crashing path.

If I remember correctly, the second one I did on harvested 34/70 flocced out much better than the first one. I used two packets for this one, still not enough cells apparently. Not going to the LHBS until next week, will give my guy a call this week to see if he can order me some MJ. This IS an ongoing experiment, but one where the results get drunk no matter what!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The only other cali lager yeast i have tried was crossmyloof (only once) and that was not as tasty and did not clear anywhere near as fast.
I will be trying the MJ bohemian and Bavarian at warm temps soon after i do a cold run to see if there is any difference.

Interesting, as most of the CML strains seem to be the same as Mangrove Jacks. Was there any big change in process that might have affected the rate at which it dropped?

Assume that none of the MJ strains are original, so it's a question of what they've repacked. I'd guess the Bavarian is almost certainly 34/70?

 

[Upthewazzu]

Where is everyone getting MJ54 online?

 

[SanPancho]

Few nitpicks-

Lets hold off on anointing Cali common as the “best” yeast here- tastes are subjective for all us us- but i gotta say that **** is gross. There is a reason why only the tourist bars sell Anchor in SF.

And regarding the A/B test marshall did, the tasters picked the warm beer, but most said no difference. Although eventually as they aged a bit he said the cold one got better and the warm seemed less so. Granted that was fermented in the 80s, which might have been too high. Maybe 70 is a more realistic upper limit.

And the 3470 wont floc complaint is not universal by any means. Gotta make sure yeast is happy and healthy, and keep enough calcium in the mix. I dont even bother fining, although that’s obviously another route.

And on sort of related note, white labs has a high pressure yeast. Fermients warm, but need to keep under pressure so you gotta ferment in a keg.

 

[InspectorJon]

I was looking on the Mangrove Jack website and they say:

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."

Has anyone had trouble repitching this yeast? It is difficult to find at the LHBS and I'd rather not pay shipping. I found one pack with a good date. I will brew a 1.75 gallon California Common batch with it and then want to use that yeast to pitch a 3 gallon batch of Doppelbock. Anyone have experience reusing this yeast?

 

[ba-brewer]

I was looking on the Mangrove Jack website and they say:

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."

Has anyone had trouble repitching this yeast? It is difficult to find at the LHBS and I'd rather not pay shipping. I found one pack with a good date. I will brew a 1.75 gallon California Common batch with it and then want to use that yeast to pitch a 3 gallon batch of Doppelbock. Anyone have experience reusing this yeast?

Seems like marketing propaganda to sell more yeast.

I have seen people say the peachy flavor from US-05 is a first pitch thing. I have never used the mangrove jack yeasts but most other dry yeast I have tried work better on repitches then the first pitch. Maybe they are just saying the yeast will not perform completely the same as the first pitch.

 

[Beer666]

Interesting, as most of the CML strains seem to be the same as Mangrove Jacks. Was there any big change in process that might have affected the rate at which it dropped?

Assume that none of the MJ strains are original, so it's a question of what they've repacked. I'd guess the Bavarian is almost certainly 34/70?

Cannot say as only brewed it once. Took about a week once kegged the same as their Kolsch yeast (which i really like). Had been in the fridge for 2 weeks and now only doing 5. Kegging the MJ54 is clear. No dirty first pint. No idea about the 34/70 but i have some to try soon. Also the CML beer was not dry hopped and the last batch had 150g of dry hops and still clear.

 

[Beer666]

I was looking on the Mangrove Jack website and they say:

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew."

Has anyone had trouble repitching this yeast? It is difficult to find at the LHBS and I'd rather not pay shipping. I found one pack with a good date. I will brew a 1.75 gallon California Common batch with it and then want to use that yeast to pitch a 3 gallon batch of Doppelbock. Anyone have experience reusing this yeast?

I top cropped my first batch and have been making starters with it since. I save a portion of the starter and make a fresh one each time. Up to 6 generations i think.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

@z-bob what kind of attenuation did you get with the 1116?

 

[z-bob]

@z-bob what kind of attenuation did you get with the 1116?

My hydrometer, which I very seldom use because it's old and I don't trust it, said the beer went all the way to 1.000. I don't believe that, but it's possible because the beer was quite dry.

 

[WesBrew]

man, I really want an Oktoberfest going but have zero room in kegerator for cold fermenting. I wonder how MJ cali lager would go in a fest bier. does it finish too dry? I'd have to ferment in my brew-room, so-to-speak, which is conditioned at 74 degrees.

 

[Miraculix]

man, I really want an Oktoberfest going but have zero room in kegerator for cold fermenting. I wonder how MJ cali lager would go in a fest bier. does it finish too dry? I'd have to ferment in my brew-room, so-to-speak, which is conditioned at 74 degrees.

I cannot give you an exact attenuation rate as I do not own a hydrometer which is precise enough, but I got the feeling that CL is finishing on the dry end of the lager range, but not on the far dry end. I am more into dry beer and I like this strain, just to give you an idea.
But Maybe you can manage this with a high enough mash temp, I never tried this. I usually mash in between 61 and 65 degrees celsius. Never tried higher temps with this particular strain.

 

[WesBrew]

@ Miraculix
that is on the low side so maybe if I mashed around 157f/69c, it would produce a more Oktobery finish. although from brulosophy testing it doesn't seem to make a big difference. maybe even a little dextrine
my recipe yeast is wlp833 so not sure how that would do in warmer ferment, but I'd be 20degrees over max recommended

 

[Genuine]

I got an Oktoberfest ready to keg. 34/70 ripped right through it in 36 hours at 68 degrees!

 

[seatazzz]

Pulling the PRV every 15 minutes or so on number 5, taking it to FF Draft today. Was going to take the "meh" stout, but husband got after me last night that I don't share my beers with anyone but him and my brewpub boss, and I need to get other people's opinions (and be nice, that's difficult). Don't know how I feel about this one, done with all Crystal hops. The flavor is....sweet. It's also got a good carbonic bite going after two days on force carb, but that sweetness is kinda weird. Not a fruity ester, just....sweet. Doesn't linger too long on the tongue so it may be the hops. I'm more worried about what the guys will think of my beer than who I'm going to get on my team this year (other than Russell Wilson who I'm going to franchise for the third year in a row, best QB the Hawks have ever had, start stupid football rant in 3...2...1...).

 

[SanPancho]

@ Miraculix
that is on the low side so maybe if I mashed around 157f/69c, it would produce a more Oktobery finish. although from brulosophy testing it doesn't seem to make a big difference. maybe even a little dextrine
my recipe yeast is wlp833 so not sure how that would do in warmer ferment, but I'd be 20degrees over max recommended

S189 is what you want.