Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Northern_Brewer]

Have there been good results with warm fermenting WLP830? If so what was your experience and what temp did you ferment at?

As a first approximation it should behave pretty similarly to 34/70...

 

[HutBrew]

Have there been good results with warm fermenting WLP830? If so what was your experience and what temp did you ferment at?

I just made a batch that was fermented “warmish” at around 55*F +/- 10*F this January in my basement without any temperature control. No diacetyl rest.

I am still lagering half this batch, but the first half of the batch was awesome. I don’t know if ~55*F “counts” as warm fermentation per this thread, but it definitely wasn’t a low as it should have been most of the time.

I got a nice lagery flavor from this batch, and no bad off flavors- perhaps a hint of the green apple when first carbonated, but it’s subsided now- nothing like Rolling Rock.

Fermented quick- Krausen within 36 hours, and the Krausen dropped after ~3days from forming. Aggressive fermentation with ~1.047OG wort.

 

[rtstrider]

As a first approximation it should behave pretty similarly to 34/70...

So you think it'd be fine at 60F or even 66F? The reason I ask is I have not preferred the cold ferment (50F) results from this strain.

 

[HutBrew]

As a first approximation it should behave pretty similarly to 34/70...

End result was very similar to 34/70.

It seemed to be halfway between Omega German Lager I and 34/70 for me. Not quite as lagery as Omega, but more so than 34/70. Again, this is just my preference among the 7 or so Lagers I’ve done so far.

I prefer Omega GL1 to 34/70 (when done warm (~60*F) due to the more prominent “Lager Bite” (I don’t like the term crisp) with Omega.

I do like 34/70 because in my (limited) experience it’s very clean, but it doesn’t have the lager umph that I’ve grown fond of in Omega’s version of the the Weihenstephan strain.

Again, to me it’s half way between the two strains

 

[HutBrew]

So you think it'd be fine at 60F or even 66F? The reason I ask is I have not preferred the cold ferment (50F) results from this strain.

I know my fermentation got that high with it occasionally, (pitched at ~70-75)

I think you’ll be fine!

 

[rtstrider]

I know my fermentation got that high with it occasionally, (pitched at ~70-75)

I think you’ll be fine!

May just try that this summer for giggles. I've used 34/70 at 60F and was bland and clean. Not a bad thing

 

[rtstrider]

End result was very similar to 34/70.

It seemed to be halfway between Omega German Lager I and 34/70 for me. Not quite as lagery as Omega, but more so than 34/70. Again, this is just my preference among the 7 or so Lagers I’ve done so far.

I prefer Omega GL1 to 34/70 (when done warm (~60*F) due to the more prominent “Lager Bite” (I don’t like the term crisp) with Omega.

I do like 34/70 because in my (limited) experience it’s very clean, but it doesn’t have the lager umph that I’ve grown fond of in Omega’s version of the the Weihenstephan strain.

Again, to me it’s half way between the two strains

Can you describe that umph? Is it a "tartness" or more of a sulfur like character by chance?

 

[HutBrew]

May just try that this summer for giggles. I've used 34/70 at 60F and was bland and clean. Not a bad thing

No! Most the friends prefer the cleaner taste (or less flavor)

As far as “tartness” or “sulfur” I can’t really say… to me it’s the “Deutsche-Factor”

A few German imports I’ve gotten my hands on have had a similar “bite”or taste- something that pleasantly feels like you’re tasting it nasally when gulped- (sulfur?)

It’s something I occasionally taste in Miller Lite (though very subtle) but not other mass produced lagers, but I may be imagining things because I mostly drink Miller at bars.

I would lean more on a sulfur taste, but I’m not a BJCP by any means.

 

[HutBrew]

Also I have pressure fermented 90% of all Lagers I’ve done

 

[Pennine]

I'm betting that's the tube for the floating dip. Looks like it's probably the Anvil Junior so it would make sense in that case.


Looks great and I appreciate the updates. Here's my Nova lager from last night. Clear as can be now and tasting pretty crisp Glad yours is cleaning up well.

View attachment 816001

How long has that been sitting? Mine is clearing but not that well, it's also crisp but still a bit fruity.

 

[eliastheodosis]

How long has that been sitting? Mine is clearing but not that well, it's also crisp but still a bit fruity.

It was conditioning for just over 7 weeks at that point. It has been this clear for a couple weeks, though. It definitely took its sweet time to clear up even with gelatin fining. That might be my biggest complaint with the yeast so far. It's crisp and malty but still has that fruity profile. Not overwhelming but definitely there. Just had a couple honest friends over to taste and take notes. Their reviews were similar and their overall impressions were positive. Basically the same as everyone else that has tried it. The esters are there but they are not unpleasant at all.

 

[seatazzz]

Here's my first one on Novalager. Kegged on 3/20, yesterday it really started looking clearer. Quite happy with this one.

 

[catdaddy6676]

Yep! Using wlp810 (San Francisco Lager) yeast in a California Common, one of my favorite styles but first time brewing it in three years

 

[Pennine]

It was conditioning for just over 7 weeks at that point. It has been this clear for a couple weeks, though. It definitely took its sweet time to clear up even with gelatin fining. That might be my biggest complaint with the yeast so far. It's crisp and malty but still has that fruity profile. Not overwhelming but definitely there. Just had a couple honest friends over to taste and take notes. Their reviews were similar and their overall impressions were positive. Basically the same as everyone else that has tried it. The esters are there but they are not unpleasant at all.

I had another sample, and yeah that was my impression as well. It's also better cold, when it gets too warm the apple stands out more. Hints of cider in the aroma and flavor.

 

[Pennine]

Here's my first one on Novalager. Kegged on 3/20, yesterday it really started looking clearer. Quite happy with this one.

View attachment 816243

Wow that was quick to clear did you use gelatin?

 

[seatazzz]

Wow that was quick to clear did you use gelatin?

Yes. I forgot it on the second one, so will see if it clears on its own.

 

[sweetcell]

forgive me, high priests of WF, for i have sinned... it has been 11 weeks since my last post.

i... i... lord, this is so hard... i... pitched at 54*F <hides face in shame>

but it wasn't my fault! there i was, doing the first half of my annual blond-and-doppel spring lager brews (starting with a classic pilsner, 100% Mecca pils and german saaz - a SMaSH!), the brew day went really well, and i was chilling the BK... and suddenly satan sent his most evil minions (AKA my kids) to tempt and distract me, they led me away from the path of virtue, and woe unto me - i had chilled down to the low 50's. with no time left to pursue righteousness, i just ran with it. i excommunicated my sinful fermentors to the unholy and unheated woodshop, set up temp control for 54, and immediately shunned them. i can only pray that the rehydrated 34/70 can find it in their collective hearts (nuclei? mitochondria?) to see past my transgressions... there were signs of active fermentation the next morning, things were rippin' full steam by that evening - the lagers gods graced me with their smiles.

how many "hail Tastys" shall my penance be?

 

[sweetcell]

<dubbel post deleted>

 

[ba-brewer]

how many "hail Tastys" shall my penance be?

To hail Tasty, take back control from the fermentation gods and drive those yeasties, show them who is boss, add 3F at 50% and 75% and 6F at 90%.

 

[eliastheodosis]

100% Mecca pils

Also, enjoy that Mecca Grade while you have it...

 

[sweetcell]

Also, enjoy that Mecca Grade while you have it...

yeah i wrote about the shut-down in the Mecca Grade thread (didn't want to clog up this thread with regional malting biz chatter...)

 

[beervoid]

Hey all, just had a go at a pilsner with 34/70, pitched at 16c then freerise to 21 after day 5. Let it mature till day 10 then proceeded to start cold crashing.
I'm 1 day post cold crashing now and took a sample. The sample smells like cider or wheat beer.
Was curious to know if this is cause the sample is still yeasty?
How many days does 34/70 usually need to clear up? I've got it sitting at -1 currently.
Cheers

 

[thehaze]

Hey all, just had a go at a pilsner with 34/70, pitched at 16c then freerise to 21 after day 5. Let it mature till day 10 then proceeded to start cold crashing.
I'm 1 day post cold crashing now and took a sample. The sample smells like cider or wheat beer.
Was curious to know if this is cause the sample is still yeasty?
How many days does 34/70 usually need to clear up? I've got it sitting at -1 currently.
Cheers

Batch size and pitch rate? It sounds like you underpitched and coupled with the warmer fermentation, resulted in acetaldehyde, which is the smell you got from the sample. 34/70 is pretty fast on all fronts, but I wouldn't taste a lager before 30 days ( includes fermentation time ).

 

[beervoid]

Batch size and pitch rate? It sounds like you underpitched and coupled with the warmer fermentation, resulted in acetaldehyde, which is the smell you got from the sample. 34/70 is pretty fast on all fronts, but I wouldn't taste a lager before 30 days ( includes fermentation time ).

5 gallons 2 packs plus added nutrient, should be more then enough given it's fermented warm you get more growth.

 

[beervoid]

I'm pretty sure it's acetyldehyde, green apple cider comes to mind. Guess 9 days is not enough for 34/70 to ferment and clean up completely, will see how this develop from here while it's crashing.
If it's still 30 days from grain to glass with the warm ferment, im not sure what the benefits are from fermenting warmer.

 

[sweetcell]

If it's still 30 days from grain to glass with the warm ferment, im not sure what the benefits are from fermenting warmer.

i don't see the main benefit of WF lagers as being speed of grain-to-glass, but i could see it being important for some and if that's the case i'd expect you to be able to shave a few days off. 28 vs. 30 days isn't going to make or break my brewing, but YMMV (besides, i tend to lager much longer, so it would be 54 vs. 56 days or more...)

for me, benefit = you don't need to keep it cold, and everything that comes with that: easier/faster chilling, don't need to buy a dedicated fridge, lower electricity consumption, space not taken up by fridge, etc.

i have a cool basement, so for ales and WF lagers i only need heating. i don't have a fermentation fridge. if you ferment all your beers in a fridge, then yeah - not a whole lot of benefit, other than requiring less electricity.

also, "don't drink for at least 30 days" is one person's opinion which will be very dependent on that person's process. using things like gelatin can greatly decrease that, IMO.

 

[Beermeister32]

also, "don't drink for at least 30 days" is one person's opinion which will be very dependent on that person's process. using things like gelatin can greatly decrease that, IMO.

That's why it is great having about 5-6 kegs in the pipeline............! Let it lager..............!

 

[eliastheodosis]

Hey all, just had a go at a pilsner with 34/70, pitched at 16c then freerise to 21 after day 5. Let it mature till day 10 then proceeded to start cold crashing.
I'm 1 day post cold crashing now and took a sample. The sample smells like cider or wheat beer.
Was curious to know if this is cause the sample is still yeasty?
How many days does 34/70 usually need to clear up? I've got it sitting at -1 currently.
Cheers

I read this as you saying you held it at 16C until day 5 and then let it freerise to 21C starting on day 5. Is that right? If so, from my experience I wouldn't see an issue with those times and temps. When following a similar schedule with 34/70 the beer is usually drinking pretty clean with just the normal bready/yeastyness by day 7-10. We may not be able to diagnose what happened here, but I'd give it at least another try before discounting WF lagers.

What you're describing does sound more like acetaldehyde than esters to me. It's impossible to diagnose from afar, of course. If I am reading this wrong and you let it freerise from day 1 then it could be esters, though. I've never done that so it's a guess. If you can share it with some friends that might help you confirm. Just one thought to consider. Otherwise, maybe it's something else in your process and this was just the unlucky batch

i don't see the main benefit of WF lagers as being speed of grain-to-glass, but i could see it being important for some and if that's the case i'd expect you to be able to shave a few days off. 28 vs. 30 days isn't going to make or break my brewing, but YMMV (besides, i tend to lager much longer, so it would be 54 vs. 56 days or more...)

for me, benefit = you don't need to keep it cold, and everything that comes with that: easier/faster chilling, don't need to buy a dedicated fridge, lower electricity consumption, space not taken up by fridge, etc.

Agreed with Sweetcell here. You'll have a faster ferment and cleanup with a WF lager but otherwise I wouldn't see it speeding up the grain to glass much more than that. Opinions on how long to lager can vary pretty widely (I lager on the long side too) but I would simply say to lager a WF pilsner just as long as you would lager any other pilsner you brew. I would at least start there if you want a similar end result.

I also agree that not touching a lager for 30 days is going to depend on that person's process and palate. @thehaze, for the record I am not disagreeing with you I don't touch my lagers for 8 weeks, but I know some people here drink them as soon as they're clear and they love them. I would think the OP can get a clean ferment from 34/70 and use finings to get it clear in maybe two weeks total from brew day. If they love the taste and are happy with that then who am I to argue

 

[beervoid]

I read this as you saying you held it at 16C until day 5 and then let it freerise to 21C starting on day 5. Is that right? If so, from my experience I wouldn't see an issue with those times and temps. When following a similar schedule with 34/70 the beer is usually drinking pretty clean with just the normal bready/yeastyness by day 7-10. We may not be able to diagnose what happened here, but I'd give it at least another try before discounting WF lagers.

What you're describing does sound more like acetaldehyde than esters to me. It's impossible to diagnose from afar, of course. If I am reading this wrong and you let it freerise from day 1 then it could be esters, though. I've never done that so it's a guess. If you can share it with some friends that might help you confirm. Just one thought to consider. Otherwise, maybe it's something else in your process and this was just the unlucky batch


Agreed with Sweetcell here. You'll have a faster ferment and cleanup with a WF lager but otherwise I wouldn't see it speeding up the grain to glass much more than that. Opinions on how long to lager can vary pretty widely (I lager on the long side too) but I would simply say to lager a WF pilsner just as long as you would lager any other pilsner you brew. I would at least start there if you want a similar end result.

I also agree that not touching a lager for 30 days is going to depend on that person's process and palate. @thehaze, for the record I am not disagreeing with you I don't touch my lagers for 8 weeks, but I know some people here drink them as soon as they're clear and they love them. I would think the OP can get a clean ferment from 34/70 and use finings to get it clear in maybe two weeks total from brew day. If they love the taste and are happy with that then who am I to argue

Yes that was exactly my process, Im quiet sure it's acetyldehyde, the first thing that hits me when smelling it is apple cider.
Also the batch was calculated to finish at 1.008fg with 77% attenuation. I only got down to 1.012 which seems pretty high.
I did spund from day 3 when bubbles started to slow, so perhaps the spunding has keps some of the unwanted aroma's in the beer? Slowed down the fermentation process?

 

[beervoid]

i don't see the main benefit of WF lagers as being speed of grain-to-glass, but i could see it being important for some and if that's the case i'd expect you to be able to shave a few days off. 28 vs. 30 days isn't going to make or break my brewing, but YMMV (besides, i tend to lager much longer, so it would be 54 vs. 56 days or more...)

for me, benefit = you don't need to keep it cold, and everything that comes with that: easier/faster chilling, don't need to buy a dedicated fridge, lower electricity consumption, space not taken up by fridge, etc.

i have a cool basement, so for ales and WF lagers i only need heating. i don't have a fermentation fridge. if you ferment all your beers in a fridge, then yeah - not a whole lot of benefit, other than requiring less electricity.

also, "don't drink for at least 30 days" is one person's opinion which will be very dependent on that person's process. using things like gelatin can greatly decrease that, IMO.

I'm on a production schedule here and i'm aiming to package my beers in 14 days so I can free fermenter space for the next batch.
I will test the gelatin fining out of curiosity to see how much of the character i'm getting is yeast.